AM as renegades & heretics

[Brom MKIV]

Greetings, I have a friend who played RH in 7th with csm iron warriors and now wishes to return to the game with this army. However I feel the power level of RH is too low to be fun or effective in our gaming environment. This would be a pretty big disincentive for him to come to terms with.

 

I am considering suggesting that he instead use the full AM rules to represent RH alongside his iron warriors. Essentially this would mean adding the keyword Chaos to those units. Or maybe there's another option I'm missing.

 

So I'd like your input and thoughts in this idea. Would such a combo really break anything or even be as good as loyalist soup?

 

Do you have an alternative that could give him a decently competitive chance with RH plus iron warriors?

 

Thanks in advance.

[WarriorFish]

It's easy enough to do, from a rules perspective if you start making changes (such as giving them the Chaos keyword) then you should look into what this changes such as combinations, and what you should remove to help make it consistent and avoid any accusations :tu: For example things like "Vengeance for Cadia" should be out :P

[N1SB]

Hi Brom, thanks for being a good friend.

I won't speak to house rules because, even though my current meta is more focused on the modeling/painting aspect than WAAC, I find rules-as-written easier to learn since it's both easier to look up and standardised (and easier to look for advice online, since most of us use standard rules, it's the touchstone). Learning 8th is part of your friend's challenge, so even if his army isn't very competitive, at least he won't find it frustrating to learn. That said, you know your friend better than I do.

However, on this question:

Do you have an alternative that could give him a decently competitive chance with RH plus iron warriors?

What I can speak to is, I actually used the Renegades & Heretics Index for a long time. And, specifically, I looked at Iron Warriors to go with them. There are some interesting combos that, while not top tier, are intuitive for previous editions' players while being effective at what they do, and gradually incorporate elements of 8th.

In my case, I used Daemons with my Renegades & Heretics, was really fun and pretty effective

+++ Basic Option: IW-themed w/ R&H Heavy Support Detachment +++

I'll give a framework instead of an actual list, as it's flexible, but mainly requires 30+ Cultists at 1000 to 1500 points (they can be Renegades & Heretic or even Guardsmen miniatures, but count-as Cultists), then their tanks go in the Heavy Support Detachment. This is very easy to learn, extremely Iron Warriors-themed, and focuses on the pre-8th Objective Securing game.

+ Iron Warriors Battalion +

1st IW HQ - Daemon Prince (preferred) or Chaos Lord w/ IW Warlord Trait (auto-pass Morale) + Relic (2+ save & Wound regen)

2nd IW HQ - whatever your friend has

3+ Squads of Cultists - whatever you friend has, special weapons are fine, just mass bodies, the more the better

Any Squads of IW Marines - have a use on backfield/home Objectives

Then anything else he wants on the IW side, like Obliterators, plus...

+ Renegades & Heretics Speahead (Heavy Support) Detachment +

1 R&H HQ - a cheap Renegade Commander, the HQ tax

3 R&H Heavy Support - take any tanks and artillery your friend has or wants to get

This framework is basically the Iron Warriors list as envisioned as far back as 3rd ed Index Astartes, Chaos Space Marines with access to Imperial Guard's big guns, reflecting their siege background. They ARE 2 separate detachments so unfortunately the Renegades & Heretics tanks and artillery don't get the Iron Warriors' Legion Tactics...because those operators are just gun helot slaves. Moreover, it uses all the Iron Warriors' special rules like their Warlord Trait and Relic, but not so much their Building-specific Legion Trait, which is pretty situational (that's why we don't mind still using Cultists).

The overall strategy is as follows. The Warlord wearing the Relic is very tough, and has an auto-pass Morale bubble 6" around him. He'll Advance with the Cultist Blob, acting like a super-mega-commissar. Chaos Space Marines can sit on backfield/home Objectives, in cover. The R&H Heavy Support providing firepower.

For your friend, I felt this framework is like a nice transition from 7th to 8th. He can intuit much of this, like how Iron Warriors are known for their siege warfare but it was tricky to get access to them in 7th ed, but now the 8th ed's Detachment system actually makes the rules closer reflect their fluff. I don't think it's the army list he'll end with, but it's a good way to start, with a lot of the things he's already familiar with, added with a few new concepts he could explore.

+++ Disloyal 32 +++

Another option for this very Command Point-thirsty meta.

R&H are pretty good for doing the Chaos version of the Loyal 32, to generate cheap Command Points. Can be used for re-rolls for their Heavy Support options. The rest of IW just do their thing with all these re-rolls and big guys behind them. But I think this is more interesting for a Chaos Knight army rather than IW.

+++ Counts as Imperial Fists w/ Astra Militarum Regiment +++

Not sure if this is something your friend would be interested in, but when the new Imperial Fists Supplement comes out, use the Iron Warriors as counts-as for them with Astra Militarum support. The IF and IW are mirror rivals, after all. However, unless your friend wants to treat his IW minis as Intercessor counts-as, I'm not even sure if this is all that useful (like with Tactical Marines, not saying it's not, I just don't know).

+++++

Just a few ideas. I think the heavily IW-themed one is the best one in terms of user-friendliness and theme, but I didn't want to rule out the other obvious options like the Disloyal 32 and using the Loyalist equivalent Codexes, as at least it's easier to keep track of.

[Brom MKIV]

Thanks for the replies and nice army pic!

 

So am I getting that RH is OK even without strats, doctrines etc?

 

I could suggest a full counts as it wouldn't hurt just not sure if he'd like that route. It would be the stronger easier choice but I know he does want to use some unique csm units particularly oblits. Otoh he wants earthshakers.

 

My main concern is how weak the RH units are with no morale mitigation and no strats or doctrines. I feel that might be crippling. But maybe using cultists and only taking RH for the arty might be the solution?

[WarriorFish]

Stratagems and doctrines add a lot to an army, there's no way around that I'm afraid. While the doctrines/chapter trait/legion/etc are nice buffs to an army and add some character Stratagems are what adds perhaps the most, as these are tactical ploys that you can engage as you need. That adds a great deal to a game. You get the default ones at least, so there is some morale mitigation if you have 2 Command Points loafing, but equally a Guard army doesn't have much to help with morale either. GEQ units don't last long, so if you make sure to keep costs down it's not a huge issue.

 

Keeping things out of the box rules wise is definitely the easiest way, so it might be worth trying R&H out a few times first before considering options? He'll be busy with the first few games learning 8th so may as well use these training games as an opportunity to see how things work :)

[N1SB]

I agree with Brother WarriorFish. As you already know, the humble Guardsmen are one of the top point-for-point units because of Regimental Doctrines, Orders, Stratagems, etc. That's why the Astra Militarum is so much more competitive compared to R&H as a total army. In fact AM is highly competitive compared to every other army.

However, you actually pinpointed the exact exception to the rule:

Thanks for the replies and nice army pic!

So am I getting that RH is OK even without strats, doctrines etc?

My main concern is how weak the RH units are with no morale mitigation and no strats or doctrines. I feel that might be crippling. But maybe using cultists and only taking RH for the arty might be the solution?

So if you're taking the whole army, the whole set menu, HQ, Troops, etc., R&H can't compare to AM, we all agree on that.

But you're NOT taking the whole set menu. You're ordering a la carte, like in this case, you're just looking at Heavy Support.

EVEN THEN, certain Heavy Support choices, STILL AM does it so much better. For example, Leman Russes, with their Leman Russ Tank Commander HQ with his Tank-specific Orders and then some Regimental Doctrines that benefit Vehicles, makes them way better for AM than R&H or even Genestealer Cult, for example.

But like you say, we're using Cultists and then only looking to R&H for artillery, which leads to...

I could suggest a full counts as it wouldn't hurt just not sure if he'd like that route. It would be the stronger easier choice but I know he does want to use some unique csm units particularly oblits. Otoh he wants earthshakers.

The Earthshaker Battery happens to be one big exception to the rule, but there's 2 versions and we gotta be careful which one.

There's the Earthshaker Battery, then the Earthshaker Carriage Battery. The former has no crew and operates like a turret type thing; it can even shoot when engaged in close combat, it's pretty neat. The latter has a crew that can be killed and render the Earthshaker inoperative.

So I used Earthshaker Batteries, the crew-less turret version. The reason was I got this Nurgling-themed army and my Tanks and Artillery were operated by Nurglings, thus it kinda make sense (otherwise I'd have the Nurglings count as Guardsmen, which is weird):

I share these pics just to show I followed my own advice

Aside from it's weird rules, it also lacks a Keyword: Vehicle.

Thus, even for a AM army, that lack of Keyword: Vehicle really messes up a lot of things. It's neither a Vehicle nor Infantry, so it can take neither Tank Orders or regular Orders. Then for Regimental Doctrines, the Catachan one allows them to re-roll the number of shots when determining things that have random D6 shots, which the Earthshaker Battery has, but that only applies to Vehicles...which again doesn't apply to it because again it lacks the keyword.

In short, it happens that the Earthshaker Battery can't use Orders, Regimental Doctrines, all the things that AM do better than R&H....so you don't lose out. I didn't mention this earlier, but I suspected it was the case with your friend, because that's exactly what I'd use if I was IW.

+++++

To conclude, AM is better than R&H almost across the board as an army, like if you were to make armies drawing only from 1 Codex.

However, if you use R&H as just a toolbox for your Chaos army to just draw what you need from, to go with Chaos Daemons and your Chaos Space Marines with Obliterators. Artillery is one such tool. Other useful tools, if you wish to delve further, are things like Sniper Rifles that Chaos can't get otherwise.

Then it happens the crew-less, turret-like Earthshaker Battery don't really benefit from AM rules anyway.

As for Stratagems, don't forget, even R&H gets a really useful Stratagem...it's the Re-Roll One Die Stratagem. I used this A LOT with my Artillery (that said, that might prove the point that AM has really good Stratagems when I don't have anything more interesting to use Command Points for). So your friend isn't even his precious Command Points on AM-specific Stratagems, but he gets to use them for re-rolls instead.

Thus, in most cases, R&H is outright inferior as other factions get more advanced Codices, like R&H is still stuck in the early 8th Index-based style. However, if your friend is just taking Earthshaker Batteries, it's not inferior, it's just an alternative way to play.

Also, I agree again with WarriorFish, this might be a good starting point to get your friend's feet wet, then see if he wants to explore more counts-as options on his own.

Edited October 26, 2019 by N1SB

[Brom MKIV]

Hmm ok lots to consider. I missed the details on the earthshaker and I'd bet he did too.

 

So if hes running a disloyal 32 equivalent plus some heavy support he might be ok with RH. Is that the general consensus? Now does that change if hes looking at approx 80 infantry iirc including heavy weapon teams I think, or whatever RH has that are similar. And then also heavies.

 

He loses out on tank commanders and better bulgryns that I can see. I know hes wanting to use the gellarpox models as plague ogryns- I think the RH versions look like they suck but thats from a purely theoretical view I admit. 

 

Not sure what else he'd be missing out on?

He does get access to renegade enforcers which seems like a hidden gem. Maybe I shouldn't suggest anything?

I just hate to see him invest time and money and then roll in with a craptastic army.

[N1SB]

I would still suggest running the 80 infantry in the IW Detachment to go with his IW Warlord Trait that auto-passes Morale checks, then a separate R&H Heavy Support Detachment just for Heavy Weapons Teams, Tanks, Artillery.  It's the same models, it's just how you structure things in the Detachment.  You can still get Battalions with IW HQs + Cultists.  It's not as dirt cheap, but it's more valuable imho.  The Disloyal 32 generates a lot of Command Points, but actually Chaos isn't as CP-hungry as Loyalists are.

 

I also agree with you about the Plague Ogryns, but it's more than just because they suck in theory, it's also because your friend's got Chaos Space Marines, they have much better options for close combat than Ogryns.  Ogryns make a lot of sense for a pure Astra Militarum army as they bring some melee.  Chaos has so many melee options, what they need are better guns.  If anything I think the Gellerpox models could count-as non-winged Daemon Princes that could "hide" among 80 fearless Cultists.

 

Putting myself in your position, where you want to show your friend good options, I'd suggest the following, where the underlying issue is IW theme:

 

> point out the IW Relic, 2+ armour w/ Wounds regen, allows basically for a Daemon Prince in Terminator Armour

 

> point out the IW Warlord Trait, which is like a super commissar, but only works for his IW Detachment, like for its Cultists

 

> point out the new Detachment system, including the Spearhead Detachment where 3 Heavy Support are mandatory but can get optional Elites, etc.

 

> point out he could just use his 80 Infantry as IW Cultists, just so they can auto-pass Morale checks

 

I think he'll put 2 and 2 together.  I'm assuming his 80 infantry are things he already has, right?  It's not like he has to buy anything new, it's just how you structure the deal.

[Brom MKIV]

Badass thanks man. Yes he owns a good amount of what hes brewing with. Its his baseline for power level of the game thats off right now. 

 

As a chaos player I agree theres plenty of choices for assault. However I think the ogryns could still bring something to the table as an option he can't otherwise access since csm lacks a grotesque-esque (lol) unit.. aka T5 with 2+ and 4++ mixed in.

I like to run with massed zerks from time to time to back up discos and termies but I find all those options suffer from delivery and are pretty fragile being infanty. It would be cool to see some ogryns. 

 

that said he could always dip into blightlord terminators I suppose. I'll pass this along and see where it goes. Thanks guys I'll still be watching this thread and probably posting some more questions and/or updates.  

[Exilyth]

For R&H, there are currently four popular options:

• Renegades and Heretics from the FW index (the safest, but stuck in early 8ed index territory)
• Chaos Cultists (especially for warbands/legions which tread their menial/mortal followers as slaves/cannonfodder like e.g. Iron Warriors are prone to do)
• Astra Militarum (especially for a more organized/structured force that's more of it's own thing than just some cultists being dragged along by a warband)
• Genestealer Cults (has the rogue psyker (magus), 'mutants' (acolytes/neophytes) and can use many AM units: infantry squads, heavy weapon squads, sentinels, chimera and half the leman russ variants. GSC could be great for a traitor uprising/insurection type of army.)

 

Running guardsmen as chaos cultists is the easiest solution - just a counts as, no bending of rules needed.

Renegades and Heretics would be plug & play too, but they're a bit weak and outdated currently.

While Astra Militarum or GSC would work on their own, allying them with chaos would require your opponents permission (and most likely won't be allowed in any tournament).

 

Houseruling Astra Militarum with chaos keyword added on could work too, but is less likely to be accepted by opponents.

 

 

How about the other way around:

Playing Astra Militarum accompanied by a loyal space marine chapter that just so happens to looks like Iron Warriors? Basic marines are similar, termies are similar, rhino based tanks are similar - if no overly chaos specific units are used (e.g. hellforged machines) the chaos half of the army could be a straight count as.

 

 

With all the traitor guard and mutant models showing up in blackstone fortress, there are rumors that traitor guard will get their own release/codex eventually - but they're just rumors right now.

[Brom MKIV]

Oh hadn't even considered GSC and I think thats a pretty cool army. I'll pass that along for sure.