Valdor: Birth of the Imperium

[DarkChaplain]

Considering how much about their structure seems copy-pasted in hindsight, they probably did.

[Noserenda]

Actually given their much shorter supply lines and less independent operation i could see the Thunder Warriors using Imperial Army hospitals and such, their biology is a bit of a mystery but i certainly got the impression they are considerably more human than Astartes internally.

[b1soul]

I wouldn't say TW were totally unrelated to Astartes

 

I think TW were like Australopithecus, whereas the difference between Astartes and Primaris is like the difference between archaic Homo sapiens and anatomically modern Homo sapiens.

[Noserenda]

Well they are Homo Sapiens stuffed full of organs and odds and ends to make them giant murder engines, a lot of the Astartes organs seem to be playing the long game with introduction during puberty and affecting hormone growth and the like to Grow beyond their natural potential, we can infer the Thunder Warriors are converted as adults and not intended for long term survival which implies a lot more grafted muscles and potent drug cocktails bubbling inside them instead. Which means while they almost certainly have the same scientific roots the majority of their augmentation will be different things.

That said the odds of us getting a detailed look under the hood like Space marines without a Unification War era game is basically nil so its all guesswork :D  

[b1soul]

The point is just that TW are farther from the other two, who are closer to each other.

[mc warhammer]

i wonder if anyone within the imperials suggested pressing out a new generation of TW in anticipation of horus' siege. i can imagine all sorts of reasons for shooting the idea down, but the thought of converting some of the existing adult populace into super soldiers must have been appealing to some.

[b1soul]

I think it would be down to the opportunity cost

 

Those citizens could probably be converted to Astartes at less cost and risk

 

I would have loved a SoT novel covering the depredations of the EC and the rag-tag forces trying to survive them, one of which could consist of Arik Taranis, Ghota, and other TW remnants.

[LJF]

Im not sure what was the point of this novel or who was it aimed for.

 

Do you want Valdor? He was sidelined.

Do you want to learn about the unification era? The book was very short and shallow lorewise. It touches on some things but its nothing particulary new or exciting.

Is there atleast some sweet bolter porn? lolno forget it. If I had to guess this was a mystery novel attempt.

 

Overall it was better than nothing but I feel like I purchased a half finished product.

 

5/10

[b1soul]

So Valdor precludes joint campaigning by TW and SM, but would it preclude the various campaigns by the early Terran SM legions on Terra?

I am talking about later Unification War solo campaigns by SM forces, typically a single legion to dispatch a holdout polity refusing to fully integrate

[Beren]

Part of the theme of the story is how people in the Himilayzan construction site already feel 'safe' and are becoming servile, but if it's mentioned that there is still a hostile empire on the other side of a mountain range from Ararat. It's late enough for the nascent Imperium to feel established, and for the Emperor to begin establishing the Imperial Truth, but not so late that there still aren't holdouts.

[b1soul]

Kinda throws a wrench in the idea that the TW conquered Terra

 

I guess TW conquered most of Terra, and the SM pacified it.

[Scribe]

Don't we already know from the FW books that pacification was performed by the legions on Terra? I specifically seen to remember a Night Lords action.

[Sothalor]

At this point? Who knows? BL and FW seem to consistently contradict each other.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Well, even back from the Index Astartes days, we knew the first battle honor of the Imperial Fists was earned on Terra. The Astartes having fought on Terra before the Crusade has been a thing for ages.

[StrangerOrders]

Night Lords were actually after Unity and during the Crusade, they crushed a rebellion by the Crimson Walkers (freaky-butt sorcerer engineers). They are active during the LATE unity but mostly crushing small uprisings.

 

Many Legions were active on Terra but Valdor does not give a date contrary to some of the sillier claims. It is after the Emp has overwhelmed the bulk of Terra and victory seems on the horizon, it very explicitly has not finished Unity yet.

 

Heck, Malc even says at the end of the books that they have to START negotiating with the Selenar, which we know from Betrayal lasted years to decades before they finally just melted all the emissaries together.

 

I read over every single one of the FW books I have (all sans Tempest) and nothing in this book contradicts anything aside from arguably Malevolence (even then, the V are so rarely massed in large numbers at this time that a squad or two being out and about is credible). 

 

Heck, they even start the book out by lampshading the empire the XVIII wipe out during the Tempest Galleries battle.

 

Incidentally, anyone else facepalm when listening to the audiobook and realizing Achilla is literally pronounceds 'A killa'? Of course the bloodthirsty merc is literally 'a killer'.

 

I made some silly assessments based off poor spoilers folks, dont make my mistake.

 

We also know one of the fairly new High Lords is a Nordmerican EXILE, which pretty pointedly means that the Mericas havent fallen yet. A big point in the book is the mere fact that Valdor ISNT on the front, which is a pointed cause for concern. The book is nowhere near the end of the Unity in terms of a few years.

Edited April 13, 2020 by StrangerOrders

[bluntblade]

I'm pretty sure the Unification Wars ran for a century at least. The Emperor started off with a dirt kingdom and had to build it to a kingdom which could annex or subjugate the rest of Sol, it's gonna take a while to do that.

 

The Legions themselves don't come into being evenly. Even aside from the First being around for a good long while before any other Legion, there are a fair few whose gene-seed isn't made suitable for proper expansion until after the Selenar are put to work on the matter.

[StrangerOrders]

I'm pretty sure the Unification Wars ran for a century at least. The Emperor started off with a dirt kingdom and had to build it to a kingdom which could annex or subjugate the rest of Sol, it's gonna take a while to do that.

 

The Legions themselves don't come into being evenly. Even aside from the First being around for a good long while before any other Legion, there are a fair few whose gene-seed isn't made suitable for proper expansion until after the Selenar are put to work on the matter.

This book amusingly puts paid to that theory, the Emp started with a weird patchwork from early on.

 

Even funnier is that he didnt start putting the Thunder Legions into action until he was fighting the Not-Chaos Warriors.

[b1soul]

Some of the FW books say that the TW and SM conducted joint campaigns and some of the early SM legions also prosecuted solo campaigns on Terra (for example, Night Lords and Salamanders IIRC)

 

FW Inferno and Wraight's Valdor are consistent that the first SM help to cull the last TW. So that means no joint campaigning a la the legion entries in other FW books (meaning FW contradicted itself and Wraight simply went with Inferno).

 

We also know the conquest of Terra was mostly concluded before the TW culling...so I am not sure what this all means for the legions' Terran campaigns. Seems like quite a bit of the action was concluded only after the culling, rather more than residual clean-up.

[StrangerOrders]

Some of the FW books say that the TW and SM conducted joint campaigns and some of the early SM legions also prosecuted solo campaigns on Terra (for example, Night Lords and Salamanders IIRC)

 

FW Inferno and Wraight's Valdor are consistent that the first SM help to cull the last TW. So that means no joint campaigning a la the legion entries in other FW books (meaning FW contradicted itself and Wraight simply went with Inferno).

 

We also know the conquest of Terra was mostly concluded before the TW culling...so I am not sure what this all means for the legions' Terran campaigns. Seems like quite a bit of the action was concluded only after the culling, rather more than residual clean-up.

To more or less repeat the same.

 

We gotta consider what the books actually say geographically.

 

Look at the specified campaigns and you can pretty clearly see a pattern, we dont really see the Legions operating in Eurasia outside of putting down rebellions. Valdor takes place entirely in Eurasia with some of Sudafrik in the epilogue. 

 

We know that the armies are fighting in something vaguely termed 'the west'.

 

The Salamanders and the Night Lord campaigns are explicitly late to post-unity. With the former outright mentioned in the book if you look at Kandawire's first chapter where she outright mentions a kingdom north of the area of Ararat that cost them an army before. Which coincides with the description of the kingdom above the Tempest Galleries which we ALSO know happened near the end of the Unity and after an army had been wiped out beforehand.

 

To further build on this, one of the Highlords is mentioned to be a Merican exile with no language implying that Merica had been successfully conquered.

 

To further build from Forgeworld, we know that the Antarctic was among the last continents to fall to unity with Hy-Brasil not being long before. If you consider that the Emp started from the Urals, it makes complete sense that his conquests reached that part of the world last and fits the nomenclature of 'west' of the palace.

 

The book also doesnt at all mean to say that the wars are over, especially with (as I mentioned before here) the Selenite conquests being FAR off by its ending and the wars still being more than active enough for the PoVs to be confused that Valdor would be recalled from the front. Its more accurate to say that book speaks from the PoV of the Emp's victory seeming inevitable.

 

Which is credible in light of what we know from previous works. The Panpac empire, Albya, the Europan kingdoms, Ursh, those were all the big players that we know alot about and they were all pretty much within the sphere I outlined above. If the Emp has successfully crushed those by this point, its is pretty damned credible that he can take the rest from a terran PoV.

 

Malevolence is the only really weird one of the Black Books because it mentions cooperation with Thunder Warriors for both Legions but you can swing those if you squint. The Vth is mentioned to have begun very early on but only operating as small squads at most and leaving few records, thats feasible for a test batch, especially since we know they were among the first Legions deployed, and its not exactly a role that requires a great deal of contact.

 

The IX are a harder swing but they are not exactly designed for a climate where they'd be meeting others, and if the Emp is smart he would not have killed every TW at once. Leaving a small handful to die in the public eye (even if tragically) would help him sell the Ararat myth. Heck, given how their attitude is described in the book, it might even make them obligingly suicidal.

 

That's reaching on the last one I know but its the most plausible reconcile I can think up. 

[mc warhammer]

not having read the book, i get the impression that this is about a very specific group/legion of TW and its primarch, not necessarily the big cull. is that on the money?

 

wasn't there also a first generation SM (possibly from the EC) who was trained by a grizzled TW?

[Scribe]

No, the cull for sure happened, it's a central plot point.

[mc warhammer]

ah, ok. from what i've read it seemed like the putting down of a group of conspirators who attempted a coup, rather than a targeted cull/cleanse.

 

of course it could be both things.

[Beren]

Okay, I'm going to spoiler the rest of this, but that response may be slightly misleading and may have misinterpreted the question.

 

The significant part and less spoilery part:

The great cull at Ararat has already happened. This is about the response from people who discover this , which includes the coup with that specific group of survivors from the cull at Ararat involved.

 

The more detailed and spoilery explanation:

A group of High Lords found out about Ararat - so far all that is 'common knowledge' is that the rest of the Imperium has lost contact with them - and believe that Valdor may have orchestrated the destruction of an entire arm of the Imperial military for his own gain. They believe that Valdor is responsible of this rather than Emperor, and even if the Emperor did organise it then it is against the ideals of unity which they were promised. They organise an army of loyal regiments and mercenaries who feel their time has passed, among which are the last surviving members of the Thunder warriors IVth Legion and their Primarch, to confront Valdor. 

Edited April 14, 2020 by Beren

[mc warhammer]

Okay, I'm going to spoiler the rest of this, but that response may be slightly misleading and may have misinterpreted the question.

 

The significant part and less spoilery part:

The great cull at Ararat has already happened. This is about the response from people who discover this , which includes the coup with that specific group of survivors from the cull at Ararat involved.

 

The more detailed and spoilery explanation:

A group of High Lords found out about Ararat - so far all that is 'common knowledge' is that the rest of the Imperium has lost contact with them - and believe that Valdor may have orchestrated the destruction of an entire arm of the Imperial military for his own gain. They believe that Valdor is responsible of this rather than Emperor, and even if the Emperor did organise it then it is against the ideals of unity which they were promised. They organise an army of loyal regiments and mercenaries who feel their time has passed, among which are the last surviving members of the Thunder warriors IVth Legion and their Primarch, to confront Valdor. 

ah, ok...thank you. that's more in line with what i believed the book was about

[Bobss]

Okay, I'm going to spoiler the rest of this, but that response may be slightly misleading and may have misinterpreted the question.

 

The significant part and less spoilery part:

The great cull at Ararat has already happened. This is about the response from people who discover this , which includes the coup with that specific group of survivors from the cull at Ararat involved.

 

The more detailed and spoilery explanation:

A group of High Lords found out about Ararat - so far all that is 'common knowledge' is that the rest of the Imperium has lost contact with them - and believe that Valdor may have orchestrated the destruction of an entire arm of the Imperial military for his own gain. They believe that Valdor is responsible of this rather than Emperor, and even if the Emperor did organise it then it is against the ideals of unity which they were promised. They organise an army of loyal regiments and mercenaries who feel their time has passed, among which are the last surviving members of the Thunder warriors IVth Legion and their Primarch, to confront Valdor. 

 

Even though I haven't read this story yet despite having recently bought it (I'm busy enjoying the Ahriman trilogy once again) reading these spoilers is absolutely beautiful and completely shuts down the months of complaints I have seen levelled at the book from various online forums and message boards. Good stuff 

Edited April 14, 2020 by Bobss