Valdor: Birth of the Imperium

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Silly question, can someone tell me how to "spoiler" again, been a while since I posted and have forgotten (Want to as a response to this thread)

[Fire Golem]

Silly question, can someone tell me how to "spoiler" again, been a while since I posted and have forgotten (Want to as a response to this thread)

Put

at the start of the message, and [/spoiler ] (without the space) at the end of it. 

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Much obliged!

 

So, forgive my ignorance, is Valador acting independently for his own interest or is that how the force he is combating are perceiving the situation so they are lead into combat and destroyed?

Edited April 14, 2020 by The_son_of_Dorn

[Beren]

He's acting under the Emperor's instructions. At least some of the senior members of the 'coup' believe the destruction of the Thunder Warriors goes against the promise of the Lex whether or not this is true. 

 

"Perhaps the Emperor had sanctioned it, or perhaps He hadn't. Whatever the truth, a stand had to be taken." "... the Emperor could either be deceived or cynical.."   

"Crimes against the state. The slaughter of loyal forces in order to keep your grip on the Imperial war machine.... You will be tried in fair and open court, your fate to be determined by the Emperor when he returns." 

 

These are people who are not loyal to the Emperor himself, but rather to the ideals he promises. They see the unsanctioned destruction of the Thunder Warriors as a violation of those ideals, 'the act of a petty warlord' regardless of who was ultimately responsible.

 

[The_son_of_Dorn]

I see! I was having trouble believing that Valador would act without sanction, or at least act without the Emperors best regards in mind. However the sanctioned death of the TW never made sense to me. Have them medically retired or isolated in stasis until they can be stabilised or at least given an opportunity to die in combat.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Imperium: The Emperor protects!

 

Emperor:No...

[Noserenda]

Im pretty certain the TW would fight Euthanisation and sending them on a suicide mission would be a huge propaganda loss which might set back Unification significantly if it even worked cleanly, i mean the Istvaan battles are good examples of it being messy, 

Tbh given the depictions of TW i suspect attrition had already whittled them down from their heights by the time of Ararat, with all their recruits being funnelled off to become Astartes instead and their flashy, violent way of fighting.

[StrangerOrders]

The idea of being forcibly retired or phased out might not sit well with the TW.

 

The Emperor has a tendency to go with less subtle solutions to a perceived problem. Monarchia would be another example...almost retarded EQ one could say.

Monarchia sounds more reasonable after having read Massacre tbh, since that book both communicates exactly HOW sketchy Lorgar was deliberately being and how long it took the Terran court to catch on to his shenanigans. Its pretty understandable to have that extreme reaction when one of your generals never bothers to report that he completely threw your rulebook out of the window and purposely hid his activities, 'but I thought he was a god' is not a very credible excuse in that light for forging reports.

 

On the subject of Valdor 

Valdor says that the Legions were starting to become a very political and fractious entity. They could have very easily gone the way of the Praetorian Guard or the chinese royal guards if the Emp had taken a gradual approach.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

May I ask when this book is set?

[b1soul]

Tail-end of Unification, before the conquest of Luna

 

EDIT: I should also add before the total pacification of Terra

[Carach]

we can probably assume that losses were not being replaced for the TW by the time they were culled... they relied upon far more limited resources than the astartes and were under a lot more control when it comes to recruitment, and with the world largely coming to heel you could see how it could be argued in favour of reducing their recruitment.. but this is filling in blanks in the world as the cull has already happened by the point of this book. Few organised TW remain but they are considered an ace in the hole for the folks planning at least 1 part of the coupfest going on in this book heh as they are not aware of the astartes

[b1soul]

Though I don't think this is outright stated anywhere, I actually think TW are individually costlier to make than Astartes. Out of Custodes, TW, and Astartes, Astartes are the easiest to mass produce.

 

Even if TW are individually cheaper, they tend to malfunction (e.g. go insane, become an imbecile or a vegetable) or die off prematurely, so you'd probably have to make three or four to get the equivalent of one (relatively) long-lived Astartes.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Exactly. How, I haven't read Valdor yet, and bear with me, but I think the Thunder Warriors are closer to the Custodes than Astartes, at least in terms of creation. Geneseed only became a thing after the scattering of the Primarchs, and both the Custodes and Primarchs are created through far more in-depth procedures than "get a pre-teen boy, cut him open and stuff extra bits in". My interpretation is that the Emperor created the Custodes as his "masterpieces", and his Thunder Warriors as a mass-produced variant of this. Instead of the perfectly-crafted biomantic augmentation of the Custodes, the Thunder Warriors were just slap-dash "make 'em stronger". 

What changed the game with the Astartes was the development of the geneseed, a process that would not only improve the implantee but would also do so in a stable, consistent way. 

[mc warhammer]

it does seem like everything points to tw being proto-astartes specifically though? down to the nature of their 20 regiments (storm giants or whatever) and having primarchs.

 

 custodes seem to be created in infancy, astartes in adolescence and cataegis in adulthood. if the last point is correct, it would imply that they would be an implantation/grafting process since it's such a late stage of baseline human development.

 

i think there's real mileage in the idea that gene-seed was their missing component though, which works well with tOD

 

edit:

apparently two metaphysical blades refers to TW as vat grown in some capacity?

apparently heruk's TW needed to harvest and replace organs to stay alive. were these organs from baseline humans of fellow TW or astartes?

Edited April 16, 2020 by mc warhammer

[Lord_Caerolion]

Yes, they were intended as proto-Astartes, but in terms of the creation process, the tradition before the Astartes seems to have been far more intensive creations rather than organ implants. Essentially, whatever process they put through is directly what changes their body, instead of just the catalyst. It's only once the Primarchs are scattered that the Emperor had to figure out a way to quickly and consistently create a new breed of warrior.

[b1soul]

I thought TW were made via surgery like Astartes, except TW lacked the stabilising factor of geneseed.

 

I think the biomantic stuff applies more to Custodes (infants transformed into perfect beings) and Primarchs (biomantic-Warp fusions brought forth from scratch)

[mc warhammer]

Yes, they were intended as proto-Astartes, but in terms of the creation process, the tradition before the Astartes seems to have been far more intensive creations rather than organ implants. Essentially, whatever process they put through is directly what changes their body, instead of just the catalyst. It's only once the Primarchs are scattered that the Emperor had to figure out a way to quickly and consistently create a new breed of warrior.

i'm open to the idea, would just like to know more about where it's sourced from?

 

slightly tangential quotes from MoM

 

 

Beyond the Custodians were the ranks of the proto-legionaries in their grim, battered plate. Thunder Warriors. Even then Sagittarus had known what fate these soldiers of Unity would face. Their place was here and their time was now: they would be the conquerors of Terra… and then they would be discarded. Their armour was destined to stand in rows within the Emperor’s private chambers and various war museums across Terra, and their deeds would be recorded in rich detail throughout Imperial archives.

But far finer soldiers would be required to take the Emperor’s war into the stars.

Sagittarus, fallen yet not allowed to die, would be one of the many to spill Thunder Warrior blood.

But not yet. Not today. Not on the morning of Maulland Sen.

 

and

 

 

Sagittarus watched the disorganised tide of soldiers making their way up the inclines. Their chaotic advance was as far from the implacable order of the Legiones Astartes as could be imagined. Nor could they rely on the same arsenal of biological enhancements implanted within the true Space Marines. These hordes were a force to crush the techno-savages of the Unification Wars, no doubt, but against the alien breeds of the galaxy? The Thunder Warriors would have been annihilated.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I thought TW were made via surgery like Astartes, except TW lacked the stabilising factor of geneseed.

 

I think the biomantic stuff applies more to Custodes (infants transformed into perfect beings) and Primarchs (biomantic-Warp fusions brought forth from scratch)

 

More meant biomantic as a shorthand for the artistry that went into the creation of the Custodes. Both have surgery involved, but directly after the surgery, a Space Marine neophyte isn't yet an Astartes, the organs haven't affected him yet. With, at least according to what we know and with healthy doses of my headcanon, once the surgery is finished a Custodes is already a Custodes, and a Thunder Warrior is a Thunder Warrior.

[mc warhammer]

in that version, would you consider custodes "surgery" to be done only once the infant has reached adulthood? in that case, it's really more like stages. or is the toddler already a custodes physically and simply waiting to fully grow?

[Lord_Caerolion]

Given how intensive the changes made to the Custodes are, I'd be surprised if they weren't at least partially completed in infancy. The entire process might be done in stages, given how thorough it is, but I imagine that when the process is started when they're a child, they're absolutely not a normal child from the moment that first surgery is finished.

 

In essence, the way I see it is that with the Astartes, the procedure itself isn't actually what makes the changes (other than maybe the more "basic" organs like the secondary heart). An organ is implanted, and the organ is what begins changing the host. You can have an ossmodula put into you, but until it's done changing you, you're still the same person you were before. With the Custodes, the procedure itself is what changes them. Thunder Warriors have the same style of procedure, just far less intensive and far less thoroughly. 

 

Of course, I could be completely wrong. Until we get more information on how the changes are made, we can't really say for certain one way or another. What little we do understand does seem to indicate that the Custodes aren't just recipients of new organs, or at the very least their integration is far more complete than the Astartes. 

[StrangerOrders]

So... to pull from the actual book rather than spitball.

 

The comparison to Astartes vs Thunder Warriors is made pretty apparent in the books along with why the Emp switched over.

 

The interview with Valdor is pretty brutal in how bad the TW's problem was, it wasnt 'fast cancer' so much as a guy suddenly going Akira with insane muscle growth, or their organs suddenly eating themselves.

 

Thats what drove Astarte insane in part, she became ill of continuously creating breeds of monsters which would destroy themselves.

 

The book also clarifies that the Primarchs and the Astartes were made to function around each other, it buries the whole 'Astartes are a mock up' thing six feet under. Thats what makes Astarte rebel in large part, she and everyone else assumed the Primarchs were just destroyed and without them the Astartes would be doomed to the same fate as the Thunder Warriors. Thats the thing that pushed her over, she thought the Emp had gone insane.

 

Amusingly, Malc and Valdor seem to think that the Emp was being incredibly optimistic about the Primarchs surviving or any not being corrupted. Although Malc noted that it would be ideal to recover them because the Primarchs are meant to be the core of the Legions.

 

This is supported by Forgeworld actually in Book One: Betrayal. As it notes that there were initial concerns that overusing the gene-seed (along with the impossible demand) would destroy the Legions. Then the emp just happened to have a mysterious conclave which so happens to 'discover' that the Primarch's DNA could both stabilize and accelerate the replication of gene-seed organs... almost as if they were meant to do that....

 

Its sort of a pet peeve of mine how many folks missed that Wraight actually pulled from quite a bit of Forgeworld stuff here, especially because its really good stuff.

 

Not to mention, the whole 'there were never meant to be Astartes' thing kinda falls flat for those of you that know about Leetu (not going to spoil it for those that dont).

 

On a sidenote, the book doesnt make the TW disease at all a vector for treachery. 

In fact, that the knowledge made the Thunder Warriors more reckless, brutal and prone to doing whatever the hell they wanted in some sort of demonic YOLO-equivalent was part of what seems to have convinced the Emp to axe them if we believe Valdor.

[mc warhammer]

yeah, other than vague terms about changes on a cellular level...i think the only thing close to concrete we have is that their blood is completely drained and replaced? which implies either complete transfusion or altering the original blood before putting it back?

[b1soul]

I think the fancy language was to the effect that the Custodes are altered so completely at a cellular level that the transformation scrapes the metaphysical. This doesn't sound like either Astartes or TW processes (granted we know very little about the latter). Shoving organs and geneseed into a prepubescent/adolescent or adult is infinitely cruder. I am not sure whether the infants are subjected to surgery or organ impants at any stage of the Custodes process. Edited April 16, 2020 by b1soul

[StrangerOrders]

I think the fancy language was to the effect that the Custodes are altered so completely at a cellular level that the transformation scrapes the metaphysical. This doesn't sound like either Astartes or TW processes (granted we know very little about the latter). Shoving organs and geneseed into a prepubescent/adolescent or adult is infinitely cruder. I am not sure whether the infants are subjected to surgery or organ impants at any stage of the Custodes process.

Eh... we know from Praetorian of Dorn that Space Marine souls look very wrong so they are metaphysically changed (although the Astropaths description sounds too brutal for it to be subtle like what I imagine happens with Custodians).

 

We know from Valdor that the Thunder Warriors are notably not changed on the emotional level at least, but given that 

The Thunder Warriors were specifically noted by Valdor to be critical to the Ursh campaign in large part due to weathering the horrors of their Not-Chaos-Warriors-But-Basically-Chaos-Warriors bull.

So they might be at least tweaked to some degree if less so than Astartes and far less so than Custodians.

[m0nolith]

 

I am somewhat perplexed. Almost all of the issues I had from the early spoilers folks pointed out aren't addressed, mostly because they don't actually exist. The work seems to be in the broad strokes perfectly inline with Forgeworld. 

 

And that is why I don't go to this sub forum until I have actually gone though the book, because I learned a while ago that explanations and summaries in this sub forum sometimes create an incorrect synopsis and narrative due to being out of context, and at times are blatantly wrong. All of this is also compounded by the fact that this forum as a whole tends to have things snowball. I don't know if this is a symptom of all fandom forums, this is the only one that I regularly go to, but I would imagine that it is. Someone voices what they read or speaks their opinion on a subject, someone reads it, processes it though their own filter, and regurgitates it with their own biases unconsciously tacked on, and then you rinse and repeat. It's like a game of telephone except where the result is usually unwarranted outrage.

 

I'v learned my lesson with my own unwarranted outrage in the past due to reading stuff here before going though the book myself, and after having gone through whichever book was in question I would usually feel a dual emotion of elation from the fact that the outrage I felt was completely unwarranted and at the same time disappointment that things like that sometimes snowball so much. That this outrage can get so far with it being based on partial information that's usually out of context.

 

In any case, I did just finish the book and here are my quick thoughts on it:

 

All in all an excellent book. It kept me engaged thought and I thoroughly enjoyed every moment of it. The characterization of Valdor himself I thought was very well done, and his relationship with the High Lord and the Primarch of the TW was an excellent way to convey the glory and at the same time the pitifulness of being one of the Emperor's golden guardians.

 

What really surprised me was to find out that the Astartes were intended to be permanent, and up until then I always thought that had the Great Crusade gone the way it was intended, that the marines would have been Mount Ararated, but it seems that was never the case and strangely that revelation made me really happy.

 

I did have some minor issues, and by that I mean that they are actually very minor indeed. The icons of the legions already being pre-determined being a head scracher, and at one point one of the soldiers is called an Imperial Guardsman even though the IG didn't exist yet.

 

 

In the end I really liked the book, but to be fair Wright I think is one of the best authors BL has so I'm not surprised

 

  Edited April 20, 2020 by m0nolith