Primaris anti tank

[temneb]

Hi Guys.

 

New to the bird cage.

 

I’ve run combat marines for years, with wolves. I’m now driving into the RG. Going for a sneaky shooty list. How do you do your anti tank, if you are going Primaris.

 

Let’s not talk about how I’m hamstringing myself. I know, it’s a purely aesthetic thing. I’ll never run old marines with Primaris.

[FinalCookie]

There's a few dedicated options, as in the model, weapons, and rules are all purpose built for AT; and a few more that can leverage dirty tricks and weight of dice to manage well enough against armor.

 

The dedicated options are pretty self explanatory and in no particular order: Repulsor Executioners, Las-Fusil Eliminators, Macroplasma Incinerator wielding Redemptor Dreadnoughts.

Normally I wouldn't put plasma weapons on this list, but the Redemptor's melee capabilities push it over the edge into a real AT threat, provided it can get close enough to leverage it.

 

These options are great, and will usually perform very well in the role you have tasked them for, but the issues are pretty self apparent; there aren't enough of them, and all of them will become big targets because of their effectiveness. Also, if you bring these options against an army with no heavy vehicles, they can start to struggle a bit. This is less of a problem for the Repulsor and the Redemptors, simply because they have so many guns on them that there is usually something efficient for them to shoot at.

 

The dirty tricks options are a lot more numerous, and you'll notice, involve a lot of things with plasma. More on that in a sec: Plasma Exterminator Inceptors, Hellblasters, Repulsors, Boltstorm Aggressors, Librarians, Incursors with Haywire Mines, Suppresors, Invictor Tactical Warsuits with Autocannons, and Intercessors with a power fist or thunder hammer of the Sgt.

 

Plasma weapons available to primaris marines are actually super great, and do plenty of damage to heavy armor, as they are mostly Strength 8 and 9 and do a flat 2 or more damage if overcharged. The problem with them is that they pretty much always need to overcharge in order to do reliable work against heavy armor, and that is risky. Re-rolls can mitigate this, but it won't make it go away, and characters are always juicy targets for any savvy opponent. These are the reasons I don't call them dedicated options you can hang your hat on, but they can make excellent supplementary sources of AT.

 

The real picture is that AT in a primaris army is something that is readily available, but you need to decide early on what kind of force you want to field. Because as you pick your sources of AT, they will start to dictate what chapter tactics and stratagems you want to utilize. Redemptors and Repulsor Executioners? Iron Hands help out vehicles a lot these days. Eliminators and Suppressors? Raven guard will help keep those guys alive longer, and give you ways to put support characters next to those guys who might otherwise have trouble reaching them in thier forward deployed/deep striked locations. Hell, Raven Guard can infiltrate Hellblasters right next to a Phobos captain and his invictor honor guard, and all of a sudden those dirty tricks start to add up, and you don't even need "true" dedicated AT.

 

So you've got a lot of options, is what I'm saying. And some day we're gonna get Aggressors with thunder hammers or something, and then all bets are off.

[L30n1d4s]

If you are willing to consider Stormhawks and Stormtalon as "Primaris," then they can pack some pretty decent AT options.

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

I'd do las-fusil Eliminators and prayer, but if hobby time wasn't a constraint, I'd definitely consider Hellblasters and a Repulsor Executioner. Those are the AT weapons that pop out to me the most and that I also like the models of. No idea and no interest in the stuff like Redemptors since I use Leviathans and other non-Primaris units instead for those kinds of models, I bet the plasma Redemptor is good though.

[jgascoine011]

Repulsor Executioner. Take 1 and use the "machine spirit" strat if it gets killed.

 

Las fusils, but always run them with the salamander re-roll strat.

 

Invictor warsuites, but more for the combat ability

[seriade]

The at comes from the non primaris side of the chapter i am afraid.  Contemptor mortis or vet conteptors are the most common form.  Assault Centurions are also a good choice.  The primaris line is not flushed out enough to meet the at needs that exist atm.  If your concerned about the ascetic use mk 4 marines instead of mk 7 they share alot of common traits with the mk X armor.

[temneb]

No it’s the size. I just don’t rate the old marines anymore compared to Primaris. My Wolves will stay old Marines.

 

I should have mentioned. I’m running 3x sniper eliminators.

So no Las Fusils or maybe 1 unit. But I don’t see one unit doing too much damage.

 

If I go one Repulsor, It’ll be my only vehicle. So probably need 2? But that’s where I’m sitting at the moment.

[Brother Lias]

I currently have the EtB Redemptor Dreadnought, the Supressors and the Helblasters as my only anti-tank. I will probably invest into the Plasma Inceptors but I would like to stay away from vehicles, they are not a RG thing. Any advice on how to proceed?

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

I currently have the EtB Redemptor Dreadnought, the Supressors and the Helblasters as my only anti-tank. I will probably invest into the Plasma Inceptors but I would like to stay away from vehicles, they are not a RG thing. Any advice on how to proceed?

 

Are you also trying to stay within Primaris only? Depending on the answer, I would recommend the humble Smash Captain. He's our best answer to knight-like statlines. If you don't care for the model age/scale, just build one using a primaris model and use the regular captain stats, imo.

 

Close Quarters is the best method dollars to donuts to dispatch armor for Astartes.

[Brother Lias]

I have the old Captain Korvydae from FW to use as a Smash Captain so I will add him to my lists. 

[MajorNese]

You might also take a look at Tarantula sentry guns.

Mixing units with cheap heavy bolters and some lascannons means that's a lot of wounds to chew through, and they can never be locked in CC (it just ignores units within 1"). Automated targeting and BS4+ is a downside though.

 

Those don't have any crew, so they're Schrödinger's Primaris - unless observed in an army list, they're both primaris and not primaris at the same time.

[temneb]

You might also take a look at Tarantula sentry guns.

Mixing units with cheap heavy bolters and some lascannons means that's a lot of wounds to chew through, and they can never be locked in CC (it just ignores units within 1"). Automated targeting and BS4+ is a downside though.

 

Those don't have any crew, so they're Schrödinger's Primaris - unless observed in an army list, they're both primaris and not primaris at the same time.

Now I hadn't thought a about that

I'll investigate

[Brom MKIV]

Eliminators. With sniper rifles.

Seriously these things are too good. Last night after characters were dead I killed a battlewagon with them taking the last 10 wounds and then dropped 8 off a  t8 walker. I'd expect a hefty price increase or a nerf coming in CA.

 

On track.. besides the obvious R.EX (repulsor ex) theres also plasma inceptors, hellblasters, aggressors, redemptors.. heck even invictors and intercessors with hammers when combined with all the others. Primaris are actually pretty drenched in AT considering what weapons are good in the current meta of meq.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

Eliminators. With sniper rifles.

Seriously these things are too good. Last night after characters were dead I killed a battlewagon with them taking the last 10 wounds and then dropped 8 off a  t8 walker. I'd expect a hefty price increase or a nerf coming in CA.

 

That's....not a fair expectation. Barring re-rolls and other modifiers, 9 Bolt Rifles should do like 2-3 wounds to a battlewagon. They're good, but I hardly this anecdotal evidence where they performed way beyond expectation justifies them being nerfed in a coming publication (Also, as mentioned, its likely Chapter Approved was sent to print before the Space Marine books hit shelves, so its likely we won't see any changes in it - due to the print cycle)

[Brom MKIV]

They consistently perform well as anti tank for me. Let me clarify though thats not one unit btw that instance was 3, 3, 2 elims and I use master artisans.

Ya maybe thats not the norm but its not that far outside either. They can function as a non dedicated anti tank.

But thats not why they will get a pts hike or a nerf.. IMO.  They're just too good for the cost. I'd bet nearly every player here runs at least 6 and most run 9. 

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

Ahh, Master Artisans, that makes sense. Didn't realize you were running them as successors. MA and using guided aim is a different matter altogether (from a math standpoint). Like you said, not a dedicated anti-tank unit, but it will do a pinch. The thing I think to remember is that the smaller the unit, the more of a force multiplier Master Artisans is. In the case of Guided Aim elims (assuming were going after armor and it isnt a character so the Super-Doctrine isn't active), that means two shots. This is basically the base-use-case for Master Artisans. 

 

Master Artisan 3-Man Squads vs Regular RG 3-Man Squads (both using Guided Aim) - Against T6 to T9

 

MA : 2 x .972 x .750 = 1.458 Wounding Hits, or 2.916 DMG

Reg: 2 x .833 x .5 = .833 Wounding Hits or 1.66 DMG

 

The above math doesn't also consider the mortal wound output, but for the sake of the exercise Master Artisans continues to improve this as well (allowing you better odds to fish for the 5+)

 

TL;DR: Master Artisans makes 3-Man Eliminator units almost twice as deadly as Stock-Standard Raven Guard - when shooting against tougher targets.

 

Since the OP stated he was RG, I assumed that was the method of deployment. 

 

It would be interesting to see how many people would run with if they allowed larger unit sizes (Say 5 or 6) instead of the current cap, to gauge if/how they are unbalanced. 

 

Now that I've done the math, this is just another reason why I feel like I would be better off being a Raptor for this iteration of the rules 

[L30n1d4s]

It's a lot of points, but the Astraeus is a potential solution here:

 

-It is durable (T8, 24W, 1+ armor save with RG "permanent" cover, 5++ save against MWs with its Void Shields).

 

-It is mobile (12" move, Fly key word, POTMS to negate any penalties for moving)

 

-It is hard hitting against tanks, MCs, and other hard targets (6 x Lascannon type shots, plus anither 12 x S8 AP-2 D3 shots that ignore negative penalties to Hit when targetting units with Fly... against character Knights, with +1 to Hit and +1 to Wound, it can easily "one shot" a Castellan by itself in a single shooting phase).

 

Additionally, it can be easily buffed even further by Chaplain Litanies, Captain/Lieutenant auras, buffed by Librarians to T9 with Might of Heroes, and can serve as the "fire base" portion of your army to offset the RG units which are placed in DS reserves.

[ShinyRhino]

In a bind, don't overlook our various bolters. When in Tactical doctrine, they can force some saves on anything that's not T8. After my lascannons were dead and my Hellblasters out of position, I recently pointed things like Bolt Rifles at Eldar tanks and World Eater Rhinos and was able to plonk wounds here and there.

Also fun are Marksman Bolt Carbines from Infiltrators. 6s to hit auto wound, at -1 AP during Tactical Doctrine.

Its certainly not a strategy to rely on, but weight of dice can work.

[Brom MKIV]

Ahh, Master Artisans, that makes sense. Didn't realize you were running them as successors. MA and using guided aim is a different matter altogether (from a math standpoint). Like you said, not a dedicated anti-tank unit, but it will do a pinch. The thing I think to remember is that the smaller the unit, the more of a force multiplier Master Artisans is. In the case of Guided Aim elims (assuming were going after armor and it isnt a character so the Super-Doctrine isn't active), that means two shots. This is basically the base-use-case for Master Artisans. 

 

Master Artisan 3-Man Squads vs Regular RG 3-Man Squads (both using Guided Aim) - Against T6 to T9

 

MA : 2 x .972 x .750 = 1.458 Wounding Hits, or 2.916 DMG

Reg: 2 x .833 x .5 = .833 Wounding Hits or 1.66 DMG

 

The above math doesn't also consider the mortal wound output, but for the sake of the exercise Master Artisans continues to improve this as well (allowing you better odds to fish for the 5+)

 

TL;DR: Master Artisans makes 3-Man Eliminator units almost twice as deadly as Stock-Standard Raven Guard - when shooting against tougher targets.

 

Since the OP stated he was RG, I assumed that was the method of deployment. 

 

It would be interesting to see how many people would run with if they allowed larger unit sizes (Say 5 or 6) instead of the current cap, to gauge if/how they are unbalanced. 

 

Now that I've done the math, this is just another reason why I feel like I would be better off being a Raptor for this iteration of the rules 

 

Haha yes! And iirc raptors love long ranged weapons too..  artisans and LR marksmen is sick on msu. Its my current build and I gotta say I love it. 11" flamers is da business but also really good on bolters of all varieties. 

 

 

Also agreed on bolters. Right now I'm not running any dedicated ranged anti tank (not counting medium strength weaponry that is). Its a personal handicap I chose, for now. More a concession to my personal meta since theres some animosity towards marines plus I like a challenge. But I've been finding the choice stronger than I thought at first.  

[temneb]

 

 

Ahh, Master Artisans, that makes sense. Didn't realize you were running them as successors. MA and using guided aim is a different matter altogether (from a math standpoint). Like you said, not a dedicated anti-tank unit, but it will do a pinch. The thing I think to remember is that the smaller the unit, the more of a force multiplier Master Artisans is. In the case of Guided Aim elims (assuming were going after armor and it isnt a character so the Super-Doctrine isn't active), that means two shots. This is basically the base-use-case for Master Artisans.

 

Master Artisan 3-Man Squads vs Regular RG 3-Man Squads (both using Guided Aim) - Against T6 to T9

 

MA : 2 x .972 x .750 = 1.458 Wounding Hits, or 2.916 DMG

Reg: 2 x .833 x .5 = .833 Wounding Hits or 1.66 DMG

 

The above math doesn't also consider the mortal wound output, but for the sake of the exercise Master Artisans continues to improve this as well (allowing you better odds to fish for the 5+)

 

TL;DR: Master Artisans makes 3-Man Eliminator units almost twice as deadly as Stock-Standard Raven Guard - when shooting against tougher targets.

 

Since the OP stated he was RG, I assumed that was the method of deployment.

 

It would be interesting to see how many people would run with if they allowed larger unit sizes (Say 5 or 6) instead of the current cap, to gauge if/how they are unbalanced.

 

Now that I've done the math, this is just another reason why I feel like I would be better off being a Raptor for this iteration of the rules

Haha yes! And iirc raptors love long ranged weapons too.. artisans and LR marksmen is sick on msu. Its my current build and I gotta say I love it. 11" flamers is da business but also really good on bolters of all varieties.

 

 

Also agreed on bolters. Right now I'm not running any dedicated ranged anti tank (not counting medium strength weaponry that is). Its a personal handicap I chose, for now. More a concession to my personal meta since theres some animosity towards marines plus I like a challenge. But I've been finding the choice stronger than I thought at first.

That’s interesting to hear mate. I might just run sans anti tank too.

[Johanhgg]

Im using storm Talons and storm raven as AT. Flyers, i belive, is definatly a Raven Guard-thing!

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

Im using storm Talons and storm raven as AT. Flyers, i belive, is definatly a Raven Guard-thing!

 

Flyers and dreads is where my head-canon takes me baby! (Also warsuits)

[Brom MKIV]

Well I guess I should say I run a talon and a hawk. Not really AT but they do have typhoons.

 

Their main purpose is to draw heat from my other key units and snipe hard to reach stuff like annoying TFCs.