Evolution of the crusader squad (debate, not facts)

[Ciler]

So, I was working on some Space Wolves lists for my wife and I was curious to know : how would ye feel if our equipment evolved to match that of the grey hunter squads, that is that by default our models get bloter, bolt pistol AND chainsword (all other things remaining unchanged) ?

 

I feel that would make the squad even more flexible, and in my opinion fit better with our style which is to be flexible (not just choppy).

[Marshal Vespasian]

Depends on wether we pay for the bolters or not.

I had a thought about this when list building in the heresy. Of course having sword + Bolter is better than having either. But if a squad is a dedicated assault squad and I pay a Premium for a Bolter, while sitting in a rhino for 2 turns, I dont really benefit from the Bolter.

Same for an msu squad that takes pot shots at tanks all game. Sure, the melee attacks will be cool, if someone charges, but if all of that amounts to 50-100 points across some 50 crusaders in my army, I could take a squad of eliminators or another Chaplain for that.

[Medjugorje]

So, I was working on some Space Wolves lists for my wife and I was curious to know : how would ye feel if our equipment evolved to match that of the grey hunter squads, that is that by default our models get bloter, bolt pistol AND chainsword (all other things remaining unchanged) ?

 

I feel that would make the squad even more flexible, and in my opinion fit better with our style which is to be flexible (not just choppy).

It would be very nice and with the new doctrins very flexible... maybe there is a way for us now...

 

Maybe the new Priamris Crusadersquad.

Edited October 27, 2019 by Medjugorje

[Acebaur]

Depends on wether we pay for the bolters or not.

I had a thought about this when list building in the heresy. Of course having sword + Bolter is better than having either. But if a squad is a dedicated assault squad and I pay a Premium for a Bolter, while sitting in a rhino for 2 turns, I dont really benefit from the Bolter.

Same for an msu squad that takes pot shots at tanks all game. Sure, the melee attacks will be cool, if someone charges, but if all of that amounts to 50-100 points across some 50 crusaders in my army, I could take a squad of eliminators or another Chaplain for that.

 

Bolters are zero points, so no you wouldn't have to pay for them :)

[AlmightyWalrus]

I would think the logical progression would be to add Intercessors/other Primaris as options in Crusader Squads. We don't care about the Codex Astartes; why should we care about how Cawl or Guilliman think our new Brothers should be deployed?

[Sword Brother Adelard]

It does seem to be the logical step for the chapter, at least fluff wise, if not crunch.

[Sete]

Dunno, until evidence otherwise, we seem to be going on the oposite way with primaris. Edited October 27, 2019 by Sete

[redmapa]

In terms of crunch I doubt the normal marine squad will change but in fluff I always figured Crusader squads were armed with bolters and chainswords just like Tactical squads have always had a combat knife in fluff but not in crunch. As for the Primaris it should evolve or change into something new, what that will entail I have no idea but Deathwatch proved that with a bit of creativity you can make normal squads be different in terms of rules. I would love to see a mixed unit of Intercessors plus Phobos unit or Scouts (with a new sculpt pls) have an ability where the squad gains a Scout move so you make up for the loss of Infiltrate.

[MegaVolt87]

Unpopular opinion here, it really should be nothing special to have bolt pistol, bolt gun and chainsword. This is the holy trinity of Astartes weaponry and core combat ethos, most units should have it by default. What makes a crusader squad, is the scouts, like the knightly squires. Or, maybe just make 15 man intercessor units and options for 20 man regular units like CSM can do, as well as the scouts option. 

[Sword Brother Adelard]

To be fair, all marines have combat knives in fluff AND crunch, they just aren't all modelled with them. (At least, there aren't ten knives in the kit.)

 

Now that we know Primaris can grow from scouts, it's not a huge stretch to add them to crusader squads.

 

Perhaps Intercessors for shooty squads, Phobos for close combat armed, at least until we get chainswords for all!

[MegaVolt87]

To be fair, all marines have combat knives in fluff AND crunch, they just aren't all modelled with them. (At least, there aren't ten knives in the kit.)

 

Now that we know Primaris can grow from scouts, it's not a huge stretch to add them to crusader squads.

 

Perhaps Intercessors for shooty squads, Phobos for close combat armed, at least until we get chainswords for all!

 

Well, since shock assault, could always just stick on the knife/ chainsword to represent it- though an actual +1 from a chainsword would be ideal. 

[Closet Skeleton]

In terms of crunch I doubt the normal marine squad will change but in fluff I always figured Crusader squads were armed with bolters and chainswords just like Tactical squads have always had a combat knife in fluff but not in crunch.

 

Crusader squads have their weapons chained to their wrists so they can't really carry back up weapons.

[Medjugorje]

I would think the logical progression would be to add Intercessors/other Primaris as options in Crusader Squads. We don't care about the Codex Astartes; why should we care about how Cawl or Guilliman think our new Brothers should be deployed?

 

lorewise yes.

in Terms of rules it would be very strong but GW would not do that. They want to replace them all... But this could be the case too. If you make the Primaris in a crusader squad better then firstborn...

[painting.for.my.sanity]

 

 

To be fair, all marines have combat knives in fluff AND crunch, they just aren't all modelled with them. (At least, there aren't ten knives in the kit.)

 

Now that we know Primaris can grow from scouts, it's not a huge stretch to add them to crusader squads.

 

Perhaps Intercessors for shooty squads, Phobos for close combat armed, at least until we get chainswords for all!

Well, since shock assault, could always just stick on the knife/ chainsword to represent it- though an actual +1 from a chainsword would be ideal.

I've done that with my most recent two Intercessor squads - lots of pistols out, lots of combat knives and blood spatter.

[Punchomatic]

So given the many different types of Primaris, how would it even work putting them into crusader squads? Which ones would be allowed? How would GW implement that, rules wise?

[painting.for.my.sanity]

So given the many different types of Primaris, how would it even work putting them into crusader squads? Which ones would be allowed? How would GW implement that, rules wise?

In the past, there were many types of first-born, and yet we got ~tacticals (albeit with some slightly different options) plus neophytes/scouts.

 

If GW wished, they could totally do something like having intercessors plus scouts in the same squad, potentially with hellblasters in there too. We didn't get assault marines, devastators, terminators etc in first-born crusader squads, so I don't think it'd be unreasonable to not get infiltrators, incursors, reivers, aggressors, Inceptors etc in there.

 

All that said, and even with me modelling a "black tide" of intercessors with auto bolt rifles and combat knives (and plenty of blood spatter), I'm not sure we'll get a primaris successor to the first-born crusader squad. I suspect Gabriel Seth's comments about different coloured Ultramarines will come true in the end.

[MegaVolt87]

So given the many different types of Primaris, how would it even work putting them into crusader squads? Which ones would be allowed? How would GW implement that, rules wise?

 

Easy, there is already precedent with the Deathwatch mixed units. That would be a base to study and modify to fit. 

[Schlitzaf]

Honestly I’d just allow 0-5 Intercessors w/ one of 3 BoltRifle Variant in our Crusader Squads and allowing you to run a Primaris Sargeant w/ Access to Intercessor WeaponList instead of SwordBrother in our Crusader Squads