IA: Crimson Fists

[Boldthreat]

Did the title make you go "What the hell is this about?"  Did it make you roll your eyes or wince in pain... knowing that the athor was about to get loved tenderly by the Lore experts and Liber veterans?  I get it, believe me I do.  But I have a idea.  I think its pretty cool.  Its either going to fall flat on its face, or be something that can be appreciated for what its trying to do.

 

But first, a bit of a history on how I got here and why.  I hope you are interested, because this is going to be a long subject... One I hope spurs discussion with all of you.

 

I have been a fan of this setting for years.  Since 3rd Edition I have been mesmerized by the art, story, video games and models that make up this huge universe that is 40k.  I love how vast this universe is.  I also love the idea that everything we have been told is a lie, or is wrong, or is a million different kinds of half truth.  If some of you have read some of my posts in the other parts of this site, you will know I am a big fan of conspiracy theories regarding Imperial History... and quite honestly what some people come up with is just so much better than the official story on the matter.  The beauty of this, is that the setting has this built in grey area that we can do some pretty outlandish things with "our" story and be just as official as anything else.  I like that.

 

So for the past year or two, my twin brother and I have been working together on the creation of a Space Marine Chapter that we could get invested in.  Prior to this I was working on my Exemplars of Dorn.  He had his individual creation in the Iron Sabre's.  We both love the Imperial Fists and their successor chapters.  But... that was where the agreements traditionally ended lol.  Its crazy to think that two twins who share views on almost every other subject... but when it comes to what we liked and what we didn't in regards to OUR Space Marine Chapter... My God... it was like Rogal Dorn and Perturabo trying to decide how to plan a siege.  I really just wanted a regular Space Marine Chapter.  I just wanted my Imperial Fists... or my Ultramarines.  I didn't want to do crazy things like injecting secrets and contention with brother Chapters.  Oh but he did.  He wanted dark secrets, he wanted betrayals and inbuilt conflict.  I wanted Exemplars, he wanted Dark Knights.   

 

And believe it or not, over time, we started getting somewhere.  We were going to call them Myrmidons.  We were going to revamp his Iron Sabre, Terrible Angel plotline and basically make an Imperial Fist successor chapter that was created by the black sheep of the 7th Legion, who did shoot Ultramarines and Imperial Navy in retaliation and vengeance.  Doomed to die at the Iron Cage, they didn't... but are still cast away by Rogal Dorn, who do something at a later date and redeem themselves in his sight and are legitimized.  We were close, color scheme and chapter badge was being debated... and debated... and debated.  It seemed we were going to be locked in a eternal debate and nothing would ever happen, we would just spitball until one of us died.  

 

The heart of the debate was a reasonable one.  He is new to 40k.  I have been painting miniatures for a long time.  I have been invested into 40k for a long time.  So Heraldry was very important to me.  Not to say it wasn't to him, but he really just wanted to buy the Imperial Fist upgrade sprue and use the shoulder pads and everything.  Oh that just couldn't be done for me.  You cant call these guys Myrmidons and have the Imperial Fist iconography... Why their name would have to have Fist in it!  I wanted custom made badges.  To compromise we thought we would just change the name... Go with Ultima Fists... which had to have some story elements change and shift them to the Ultima Founding... but that just restarted the whole process.  Its funny, two grown men arguing over how to paint their plastic miniatures.  But I don't need to tell you guys that, you understand the seriousness of the issue.  

 

Then came the online debate over the new Codex and the Successor Rules.  On its face, it wasn't that big of a deal for me.  I liked the Imperial Fist and Crimson Fist rules and was just going to use Inheritors of the Primarch… then realized I couldn't for the Crimson Fists, not via a strict interpretation of the rules as written.  Now right or wrong, the rules on this are clear.  I honestly can see both sides.  But it nagged on me.  Why couldn't I do this?  I wasn't making this argument from a gamer perspective, from a modeler perspective... but a Lore one!  What if I dropped my own creation down and said "no, these guys ARE Crimson Fists".  Would that fly?  Is it silly?  Could it be done well?  I didn't want to just say it was a Winter Camo, as I was thinking about my own Exemplars of Dorn scheme, which was thought up via flipping the Crimson Fist scheme white instead of Midnight Blue.  So I started reading all my old Crimson Fist stuff... researching the 40k wiki for thoughts and ideas... and my conspiracy loving self started working on an idea.  A Chapter Civil War... I was pulling from so many things... the BattleTech Warden and Crusader conflict... the Brotherhood of Steel and the Brotherhood in Exile in Fallout 3.  The Sons of Medusa background with the Iron Hands.  Various Space Wolf companies.  It started flowing together.  Not only could I do this, there was precedent already in the existing lore!  I ran my idea to my brother... and in short... he loved it.  It and the color scheme.  And it fits his chapter badge frustrations.  He was getting his contention, his secrets.  I was getting to use my older scheme... and do something that really resonated with me, the challenge of trying to Co-Opt an existing and very popular chapter, make it believable and like it could just slot in with existing Lore.  And the name was already decided lol!

 

So here we are.  I think this can be pulled off.  If nothing else it would be a fun thought experiment.  So buckle up.  

[Boldthreat]

 

 

Concepts and Items of Discussions.  I thought instead of start of the bat with a Index Format, as this is a very WIP process, I thought I would bring up individual items to discuss first... and it all can culminate in a proper IA.  

 

So initial Premise.  The Crimson Fists were given dominion of Rynn's World 800 years into the 40th Millennium post the success in the Voltigern Crusade.  Now prior to this event the Crimson Fists were a crusading fleet based Chapter like the Black Templars.  They had ties already at this point to the Loki Sector.  What I am injecting here... is that there was a idealistic faction in the Crimson Fists who resented this shift in Chapter behavior.  For years prior to this, they were attempting to shift the Chapter away from being tied down to one system or another, and were concerned about their developing ties to the Loki Sector.  Their belief was simple, Rogal Dorn sent the Crimson Fists out to Crusade across the Galaxy, and felt that their Duty was to follow this to the letter.  They felt that as inheritors of Rogal Dorn, it was theirs to keep the Crusade alive and going.  That somehow, there was a real fear that the Chapter was beginning to turn their backs on the Legacy of Rogal Dorn and Alexis Polux.  This ideological divide comes to a head when the current Chapter Master decrees that they will accept dominion of Rynn's World and become a more traditional Space Marine Chapter.  There is also an element here that I want to touch base on, that the "Crusader" Faction also believed that the "Warden" Faction was making a deal with the Devil, the High Lords of Terra.  That it was a direct challenge on their Autonomy.  That the Warden faction was willing to flirt with in order to overcome their depleted fleet and heavily damaged Flagship.  

 

So debates get louder.  Debates turn into arguments... arguments turn into honor duels... and honor duels become more and more infused with hate... until resentment and mistrust boils over into a chapter conflict.  The Crusader faction marks part of their armor in white... most of these warriors were Fists recruited outside the Loki Sector.  The Warden faction marks themselves with the painting their left gauntlets crimson (more on that later).  Now the conflict is brief, but bloody.  Long story short, remember this is a rough outline of where I am going... a conclave of Imperial Fist successor chapters comes together to settle the conflict.  It is determined after a lengthy procession, that the Crusader faction will take a Battle Barge and the remainder of their group and Crusade across the stars.  The Warden Faction would remain on Rynns World and begin the new stage of the Chapters existence.

 

Now this Crusader group is not happy.  They request with the High Lords to recognize them as the Crimson Fists proper, but this never happens.  They believe its because the High Lords have a vested interest in their puppets on Rynns World.  The Chapter refuses to rename themselves.  They believe they are the True Crimson Fists in the Imperium.  They view those on Rynn's World as backwater, pagan imposters.  They keep their armor white, in honor of those lost on Rynn's World in the Chapter War.  So over time, the Chapter moves and recruits.  There are struggles, and victories.  To the surprise of everyone they do not succumb to attrition and fade into history forgotten.  They take over a Ramilies Class Star Fort from some heretics, and repurpose it for their own use.  In short, the rabble rebuilds their order in their view of it.  They still tithe their geneseed.  They continue to send marines to Mars for Techmarine training and members to the Deathwatch.  They continue like they are the true Crimson Fists.  When warriors in the Deathwatch come across their "brothers from the other chapter" its contentious and usually results in duels and fights.  

 

Now I also want to bring up something here.  By the time of the current setting... the proper Crimson Fists on Rynn's World don't even recognize this.  This happened 1200 to 1500 years prior to the current timeline.  They believe these warriors in white are Imposters.  They don't know what to believe, other than that the idea of a Crimson Fist civil war is preposterous and that anyone claiming this to be laughable.  To them its a unfounded story that they cant even confirm or deny due to the destruction of their Fortress Monastery.  What I want to convey is that both "Chapters" view the other as imposters and their claims of legitimacy unfounded.  There is no love lost here... even after thousands of years.  There is no getting back together.  

 

I have more to expand on.  But this is the initial concept I am working with.

[BoldKill]

Hi everyone!  

 

I must admit, it's unprecedented what we are attempting.  It's a whole new concept, it sits in between DIY, and official lore.  It doesn't make up new planets or new chapters.  it exists in the same plain as official lore.  It's knowledge predates Pedro Kantor by 700 to 800 years prior to his birth.  The loss of their monastery erases any hints of a lost past.

[Boldthreat]

Well, what’s fun about it to me is we get to take something that is fleshed out, look at the vast history of the Crimson Fists, who are so cool... and develop a story that can walk along side it.

 

Let’s throw in some mystery and hints at dark things. Maybe these “Crimson Fists” are telling the truth. Maybe they know they aren’t and are up to something nefarious... of the Alpharius kind. Or taking it to another level... what if we hint that their grudge is potentially more damning then just a ancient feud of brothers.

 

I’m not saying we say these guys still kill Crimson Fists... I’m saying we offer up that they had Chapter knowledge of the weapons system to the Crimson Fists now extinct monestary. Just a nudge here and there, nothing overtly saying it. How would you gain more credibility for your rediculous claim? Well if the detractors couldn’t speak would be one.

 

It’s stuff like that, that you can play with. There is so much open to interpretation that you could play with it and write it well. Let’s have fun with this. We can take this as dark as we want. Inject a bit more grim into grim darkness.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Greetings Brother,

 

Very fine work on your DIY(?) Chapter. I don't think I've seen anything quite like this. It's a good story and has a lot of potential.

 

Just one little critique:

 

 

Now I also want to bring up something here.  By the time of the current setting... the proper Crimson Fists on Rynn's World don't even recognize this.  This happened 1200 to 1500 years prior to the current timeline.  They believe these warriors in white are Imposters.  They don't know what to believe, other than that the idea of a Crimson Fist civil war is preposterous and that anyone claiming this to be laughable.  To them its a unfounded story that they cant even confirm or deny due to the destruction of their Fortress Monastery.  What I want to convey is that both "Chapters" view the other as imposters and their claims of legitimacy unfounded.  There is no love lost here... even after thousands of years.  There is no getting back together.

I can see where most of the Battle Brothers of the Crimson Fists (Wardens) would not be in the know concerning this little piece of unpleasant chapter history. The galaxy is a big place, so the likelihood of crossing paths is very slight. However, it was once a serious incident that required the intervention of a conclave of Imperial Fists successors, so I think the incident and the existence of the crusade faction would be known by Chapter Command. I can see incidents occurring if they cross paths regardless.

 

I'm also interested in seeing how the chapter is able to maintain itself logistically as well as acquiring Primaris Technology, seeing that it is not an officially recognized chapter.... one might be so bold as to call them renegades, but still loyalists of course.

 

Overall, your chapter lore looks very plausible and very interesting I'm looking forward to seeing more.

 

[Boldthreat]

All great questions Brother Lunkhead. Here is where we think we can take this in regards to your questions and concerns.

 

We wanted the Conclave to be made up of Chapters that are not necessarily around anymore, or who are so busy something that happened 1500 years in the past isn’t important in the current context. Soul Drinkers and Celestial Lions for sure. I was really enjoying the idea of insinuating... again not outright saying, that it might not have been the Inquisition murdering Lion Apothecaries on Armageddon. Maybe, just maybe it’s vindictive payback? Throw in a few “redacted names” and we can get real shadowy, real quick. How funny the Soul Drinkers aren’t around to acknowledge these claims. Coincidental.. or maybe not. That kind of thing.

 

It’s not dialed in yet. For sure. Now as far as being almost renegades. It’s spot on. I’m very much going for a Marines Malevolent vibe up to the Indomitus Crusade. So most of the tech and supplies are “repurposed” gear from this conflict or that. Throw in a few “you owe me’s” from a forgeworld or two.. and hint that these guys may or may not be ok with scavenging off of “traitors” both of the real and accused variety.

 

That’s a good time to bring up Chapter Cult. So being a resource starved crusading chapter is not fun. Or easy. But the Chapter predominately attributes it to their faith and worship of the God Emperor of Mankind. They believe it’s His will that they thrive in the face of certain failure. It was his will that led them to capture their Fortress Monestary and expand their fleet. It was His will that allowed them to aggressively recruit and replace losses. They very much believe they are the Chosen of the Crimson Fists. And their worship is Crusades.

 

These aren’t the guys who have time to go through lengthy testing trials and such. They show up, demand 1000 or more 7 year old boys and move on. Feral worlds... civilized worlds... they don’t care. It may seem lax, but the Chapter believes surviving implantation and training to be good enough. Only Those with high tolerance of pain, suffering and mental discipline seem to make it. The organs and hypno indoctrination do the rest.

 

Now the current plan for the current setting. These guys get mauled in the opening of the Great Rift. They are on their last legs following a Chapter wide effort to hault an Iron Warrior fleet in the region of space they were caught in.

 

They are stuck in Imperium Nihilus. A Fleet based chapter who can’t see the Astronomicon are hurting. Guilliman at the end of his time here before the battle of Raukus, discover this bleeding remnant after the Iron Warriors fleet they were tracking goes cold. They come across a graveyard, with barely a Company of these guys still alive and trying to pull themselves back together. Now Guilliman is both surprised and concerned about these warriors who call themselves Crimson Fists but aren’t. On one hand he recognizes the resourcefulness and refusal to accept defeat as the Kantors Fists, but he also sees a dogmatic stubbornness and refusal to change. He teeters on leaving them to their own, until two Honor Guard, brothers (yeah it’s our chapter) who have taken over the Chapter Remnant post all others dying, present to Guilliman a relic sword called “Brothers Keeper”. It was a weapon forged by Guilliman himself; who presented it to Rogal Dorn post the codex crisis and the Iron Cage, when Dorn split his Legion. Mulling over the significance of this gift, and the legitimacy it lends to their claim... Guilliman returns the blade and orders 1000 Warriors from his own Unnumbered Sons to transfer to the Crimson Fists beyond the Rift. He commands his fleet to rearm and repair the Ramilies Star Fort and gives them enough ships and equipment to persecute their Crusades in the rift. He admits to the brothers that Dorn would be proud of their legacy, that whilst the Imperium needs hope and Chapters who buckle down and defend what they can... the Imperium needs Chapters who will attack the enemy. To take the war to them when everyone else is holding the line. The Imperium needs Warriors to spread the light of the Imperium, not just keep that light guarded. And these were warriors of that type. He commands them to Crusade as long as possible in the Nihilus.

 

And that’s where we are. Again... rough draft... but it’s a Chapter with a soft acknowledgment to burn everything down in Imperium Nihilus. They are stuck in the Wild West of the setting. They are actively attacking fallen worlds and enemy fleets. They are trying to keep the Space Lanes open. It’s a brutal, unforgiving job... but their goal is to hunt what’s coming in the Darkness.

 

Oh and they hate mutants and traitors who claim to be loyal... so it might not be handshakes and bro hugs with the Dark Angels and the Blood Angels. Depending on what GW does with those chapters in the region. These guys may end up getting caught up in the whole Fallen thing... I mean they can’t tell whose good or bad... so let the Emperor sort em out.

 

All spitballing.

[Ace Debonair]

Let me preface my comments with this:

 

I'm not attempting to be mean or unpleasant with anything I say. This is a genuinely interesting concept, and my single goal with offering C&C is to help you strengthen this concept and make something glorious from it.

 

That said, I do have some C&C for you. If it's not what you're after, you can always ignore it - at the end of the day it's just the opinion of one slightly sleepy nerd on the internet, after all!

 

Did the title make you go "What the hell is this about?"  Did it make you roll your eyes or wince in pain... knowing that the athor was about to get loved tenderly by the Lore experts and Liber veterans?  I get it, believe me I do.  But I have a idea.  I think its pretty cool.  Its either going to fall flat on its face, or be something that can be appreciated for what its trying to do.

The title honestly made me pull this face:

 

I really thought for a second it was going to be a copy-paste of everything known about the (official) Crimson Fists, but with someone pretending they'd made it up.

I'm glad to see I was wrong!

 

As for the actual idea, I see the sense behind it. Chapters are proud institutions, and don't change names lightly. Having two Chapters with the same name isn't unheard of, either.

 

It does make for some slightly confusing reading, though.

Nature of the beast, I suppose.

 

 

I have to admit, however, I find it rather hard to believe that a council of Chapters wouldn't just rule in favour of one group of Crimson Fists being in the right and telling the other to pull their socks up and get over themselves, but maybe that's just me.

 

But I'm much more baffled that the Crimson Fists (Official) apparently entrusted the split-away faction with a relic sword that once belonged to their Primarch. I just can't see the Crimson Fists willingly parting with that sword, or remaining on good terms with the Chapters that forced them to do so.

 

With regards to the Crimson Fists (DIY) getting Primaris Marines, I'd instead consider going the route of having a splinter force from the Indomitus Crusade turn up after your lads wind up stranded in Imperium Nihilus, hand over a couple of hundred Primaris (plus the means to make more), wish the Crimson Fists (DIY) happy trails, and set off again, leaving your lads wondering if those Crusaders even knew which Crimson Fists they'd just reinforced.

 

It might seem like a slightly trite or silly idea, but it makes a bit more sense than Guilliman just handing a thousand warriors to some people claiming to be the Crimson Fists, who just happen to have an ancient, possibly stolen sword and little else as actual proof, especially if they've been living as renegades up till this point and hardly appear like the stalwart, well-presented Imperial Fists they claim descent from.
 

 

Like I said earlier, this is an interesting idea for a Chapter, and I look forward to seeing how the Crimson Fists (DIY) develop - hopefully my rambling, late-at-night thoughts help you on the road to a fully-fleshed out Chapter!

[BoldKill]

Thanks for the feedback Ace, and you're good Brother because that is exactly what we want.  Iron sharpens Iron!  

 

It is a little confusing, but I think that is what we are aiming for.  For me, the best era in this setting is the Horus Heresy, when Legion turned against Legion, all the contention, and the different ideologies that caused them.  It wasn't Chaos that did it for me, it was the politics between the Primarchs, the unit cultures, and tactics.  In some ways, all the "demon" stuff reduced the maturity of it all.  My favorite Foundings are the 13th, and 21st.  That is because of all the miss directions, and questions.

 

When it comes to the whole Council of Chapters ... we want their to be bad blood, this Chapter would see themselves as exiled, or ex communicated from HISTORY.  These guys are not invited to any birthday parties.  Even if the greater Imperium recognizes this Chapter, the other Chapters that carry Dorn's legacy wouldn't, and you could even say they have a chip on their shoulder because of it.  

 

About the sword, I'll admit, this was a plot device meant to spare the Chapter from the wrath of a Primarch who just might think these guys are traitors.  There is more to this relic, and we do have a backstory for it, but my brother hit the basics of it.  We have no problem with the idea that these guys took some things on the way out, and we don't want the "Warden" Crimson Fists to be happy about it.    

 

I have to admit, we are walking a very thin line here, and that's fun!  Maybe Guilliman doesn't really believe their side of the story, but his plate is too full at the moment.  Maybe Pedro Kantor would absolutely love to get his Fists on these guys, and is just waiting for the right time to strike.  I don't want to run from that confusion, I want to embrace it.

 

Your questions are on point, and I personally believe that the best ideas are forged through adversity. 

 

Hit back!  

[Lord_Caerolion]

I really like this. I mean, it worked for the Sons of Medusa. Maybe have it that they got the Primaris tech by the fact that they're trying to both prove their loyalty and stay true to their heritage as crusaders, so when they found the Indomitus Crusade, they signed up. Sure, they're not in parade colours for the Crimson Fists, but the Codex does actually say to change up your heraldry every so often so that snipers don't go "ooh, guy with white helmet means Veteran, kill them first".

 

In the Era Indomitus, communication is screwy. It's not like they're able to just call up Kantor and ask "hey, these guys with you?" So now you've got a small area of the Imperium who believes these guys are the Crimson Fists, because they can't just pop over and check, and they can't exactly be too picky with allies either. From everything this branch of the Crusade can see, these guys are loyal, and have never done anything wrong. So long as your guys don't say "oh, and by the way, we totally had a falling out with a bunch of our former comrades", nobody will ever know.

[Ace Debonair]

Thanks for the feedback Ace, and you're good Brother because that is exactly what we want.  Iron sharpens Iron!  

 

…

 

Your questions are on point, and I personally believe that the best ideas are forged through adversity. 

 

Hit back!

 

Adversity?

I'm trying to help - I'm not sure I'd call that adversity.

I believe the best ideas are forged through a lot of work, myself.

 

 

Anyway - back to the CF(DIY).

 

So, your lads took the sword, rather than it being a gift.

Fair play, that works better (and would surely stoke the antagonism levels considerably! I suspect they wouldn't be on the IF Christmas Card List after that! )

 

But if it's solid questioning you want, then let me get right to the heart of the matter: Why have the Crimson Fists (DIY) interact with Guilliman at all?

 

This isn't an in-universe question, since I'm sure most Chapters would at least like to see a loyalist Primarch bestriding the galaxy again, even if it isn't their actual gene-sire.

 

I mean in terms of actually telling the story of this Chapter - why involve Guilliman?

 

The Indomitus Crusade did split up eventually, and it'd be easier and more sensible for one of these splinter groups to interact with the Crimson Fists (DIY), maybe even genuinely believing they're the Crimson Fists (Official) than it is for the Primarch of the Ultramarines to see an old sword and simply go "oh, no problem, have a thousand warriors".

 

More likely he'd recruit the Fists and their Starfort into the crusade - that's a useful asset that is, currently, badly understaffed and crewed by a dying Chapter. By your own admission the CF(DIY) is in a graveyard - they're not doing anything strategically important at this point, so there'd be no reason for them not to join Guilliman's Crusade. Less so if Crusading is a form of worship in their eyes - surely following the Indomitus Crusade would be following the Chapter's very reason to exist.

 

...Actually, maybe you should have the CF(DIY) join the Indomitus Crusade for a short while. Your faction is even nicknamed the 'Crusaders' in-universe, and Guilliman could later task them with splitting off to hunt traitors wherever you want your lads to turn up.

 

It'd also be a better justification for the Primarch handing you an entire Chapter of Primaris than simply happening to have a convenient relic sword that the leader of the Ultramarines has a blind spot for.

 

[BoldKill]

Ha!  I'm dramatic, I love your points actually, and the whole adversity comment was tongue in cheek.  What I meant by that is at times we can get over hyped about an idea, and it's good to have other fans of the setting ground us in our approach.  It's why I like this site so much! 

 

"More likely he'd recruit the Fists and their Starfort into the crusade - that's a useful asset that is, currently, badly understaffed and crewed by a dying Chapter. By your own admission the CF(DIY) is in a graveyard - they're not doing anything strategically important at this point, so there'd be no reason for them not to join Guilliman's Crusade. Less so if Crusading is a form of worship in their eyes - surely following the Indomitus Crusade would be following the Chapter's very reason to exist."

 

I ... I like that!

 

"It'd also be a better justification for the Primarch handing you an entire Chapter of Primaris than simply happening to have a convenient relic sword that the leader of the Ultramarines has a blind spot for. "

 

This point is hard to ignore ... In fact, I agree with you somewhat!  I'll admit, with big G back, it's so tempting to go back 10,000 years, and attach a DIY unit to someone important.  It's sort of why we are co-opting the Crimson Fists, because all of that stuff from so long ago just wouldn't matter.  Especially when half of the Chapter just got ghosted in a galaxy wide demon incursion!  1200 - 1500 years ago is plenty of time to break bonds, and establish "beef".  I also think this approach makes for a more organic DIY story, because the HH has been played out to the max. 

[Ace Debonair]

Ha!  I'm dramatic, I love your points actually, and the whole adversity comment was tongue in cheek.  What I meant by that is at times we can get over hyped about an idea, and it's good to have other fans of the setting ground us in our approach.  It's why I like this site so much!

Ah, righto.

Forgive my caution, I've dealt with folks before who genuinely seem to think I'm out to crush their DIY dreams rather than lend a hand.

So when I saw the line about adversity and "hitting back", all I could see was a red flag, with "us vs. you" written on it - which is very much not what I'm about! 

 

"More likely he'd recruit the Fists and their Starfort into the crusade - that's a useful asset that is, currently, badly understaffed and crewed by a dying Chapter. By your own admission the CF(DIY) is in a graveyard - they're not doing anything strategically important at this point, so there'd be no reason for them not to join Guilliman's Crusade. Less so if Crusading is a form of worship in their eyes - surely following the Indomitus Crusade would be following the Chapter's very reason to exist."

 

I ... I like that!

The idea's there for the taking, if you like it.

 

I can't say I recall a Chapter joining the Indomitus Crusade this way before, but it was certainly a big enough event that your CF could tag along for a few decades without breaking the setting.

 

"It'd also be a better justification for the Primarch handing you an entire Chapter of Primaris than simply happening to have a convenient relic sword that the leader of the Ultramarines has a blind spot for. :P"

 

This point is hard to ignore ... In fact, I agree with you somewhat!  I'll admit, with big G back, it's so tempting to go back 10,000 years, and attach a DIY unit to someone important.  It's sort of why we are co-opting the Crimson Fists, because all of that stuff from so long ago just wouldn't matter.  Especially when half of the Chapter just got ghosted in a galaxy wide demon incursion!  1200 - 1500 years ago is plenty of time to break bonds, and establish "beef".  I also think this approach makes for a more organic DIY story, because the HH has been played out to the max. 

 

Yeah, I get the appeal of tying your stuff closer to canon. It feels more grounded that way, in a sense. But the hard part is doing so believably.

 

Interacting with important places or characters in particular is a minefield - you've got to limit the impact of your DIY on the official stuff enough to warrant there being no mention of your Crimson Fists in any of the tales about Guilliman's escapades since his return.

 

The presence of the relic sword can still be what convinces Big G that your boys really are who they say they are, and maybe even convince him to leave the starfort with your Chapter once their time in the Indomitus Crusade is over, rather than taking the fancy ride for himself.

 

But having your CF join his crusade for a couple of decades, before being sent off as part of a splinter fleet (maybe pursuing fleeing traitors?) should work well enough as justification for getting so many reinforcements and not re-igniting any tensions with your Chapter and the rest of Dorn's sons.

[Lord_Caerolion]

From some of the discussions in Vox-Cast, it seems that's basically how the Crusade is intended to be used by players. It's not necessarily a thing that happens to Your Guys, but can be something that Your Guys become part of.

[Boldthreat]

I love what I am reading everyone. I think I see a clear path with all of your suggestions in regards to the story. I just need to get a break from work to type this up into something more official.

 

Now since this a co creation, I do want to end up with the Chapter having two Chapter Masters. That is not an unprecedented thing, but I’d like to pick your brains on Chapter organization in relation to this idea.

 

Should we stay codex compliant? Or should we consider each Chapter Master the head of 5 companies? The Star Fort “SkyBreaker” is used as a battering ram in the Indomitus Crusade (incorporating your suggestions). It’s not the Phalanx by a long way, but it’s still a moving battle station. So what would you feel about one Chapter Master abroad Commanding smaller independent strikes, one Chapter Master leading from the Battle Station as part of major offensives.

 

If we go that route... should we just split the chapter companies 1 - 5 to one, and companies 6 - 10 to the other? Make it more ad hoc and try to stuck with codex compliance? What does this do to things like the traditional veteran company and reserve system? Are all companies battle companies with a native veteran element? Or would the first company in each battalion be a headquarters company with 50 veterans and specialist detachments like Primaris vanguard elements? Could be fun to play with.

 

Back to work. Would love to read your thoughts.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Given these guys consider themselves the "true" Crimson Fists, and they'd never previously been non-Codex, I'd hesitate at making them non-Codex now. I mean, these guys split from the rest of the Chapter because they wanted to stay true to their traditions, so why would they change to having two Chapter Masters?

 

How I'd personally get around it is that while the Chapter is officially Codex-adherent, in practice the Master of the Fleet has authority equal to, even exceeding, the Chapter Master when it comes to naval combat, and has de facto authority over several other Companies as part of this in addition to their own, for use in boarding actions or ground assaults from the Sky-Breaker. In matters of "traditional" warfare, or when the Chapter operates as a whole, the Chapter Master has overall command.

[Boldthreat]

You make a fair point. One I myself was mulling over, man I just wanted to do something different as far as organization. But I believe you have the right of it.

 

So one brother is Chapter Master proper. The other is Master of the Fleet. I can work that.

 

I also think we need to drop the Dornian chapter council bit. It detracts from the ambiguity. In retrospect.

 

So the Chapter Civil War is a brief conflict. It happens in the Fortress Monastery on Rynns World. Taking a bit from other areas of the lore... it’s quickly realized by both sides that it would be a war of mutual annihilation. Most of the Crusader faction are warriors recruited whilst on crusade previously, not of the Loki Sector, though they sway some of the younger brothers to their cause. Both factions begrudgingly accept that one group will stay and one will leave the Loki Sector forever. What would you think of the group having some kind of tournament over chapter relics? So the relics weren’t stolen, but won and lost in a linked series of duels.

 

The Warden faction calls the others exiles and traitors. The Crusader faction calls the others imposters and backwater pagans. There is no love lost. Both claim to be the real Crimson Fists. Both claim to be the legitimate heirs to Alexis Polux and Rogal Dorn.

 

So space is big. These two factions meeting post the chapter conflict would be rare. But I want it to happen. To keep the fires of contention going. In the Deathwatch for sure. Maybe we say they do attend the feast of blades. Maybe they didn’t an honor duel at each festival to determine which faction participates. Make is a Space Wolf/Dark Angel thing? Anytime these groups fought a campaign together chapter champions must duel. I don’t know. Thoughts?

[Brother Lunkhead]

Lots of great ideas swirling about your Crimson Fists since last I visited. I've been looking at what you've got so far in detail and have some comments. I may seem blunt on some points, but these are JUST my opinions and ultimately what you do with your Chapter is up to you and I support that So here I gooo.......

 

Chapter Civil War

 

So the Chapter Civil War is a brief conflict. It happens in the Fortress Monastery on Rynns World. Taking a bit from other areas of the lore... it’s quickly realized by both sides that it would be a war of mutual annihilation. Most of the Crusader faction are warriors recruited whilst on crusade previously, not of the Loki Sector, though they sway some of the younger brothers to their cause. Both factions begrudgingly accept that one group will stay and one will leave the Loki Sector forever. What would you think of the group having some kind of tournament over chapter relics? So the relics weren’t stolen, but won and lost in a linked series of duels.

I like the idea of keeping this an in-house argument and not bringing in arbitration from the extended IF family. This allows both Wardens and Crusaders to forge their own paths without one faction (most likely the Crusaders) being placed under some sort of official sanction or restriction.... perhaps being forced to change their name as a new chapter or worse, the council considering their crusade "penitent". The tournament over relics is also a splendid idea. This also adds room for more tension...…. "You may have won this round Brother, but next time...….."

 

CF Meet Big Bobbie G: Indomitus Crusade, Primaris, and Other Stuff

 

The idea of the CF joining the Crusade solves a lot of problems. One: this allows Guilliman to get the metal of these guys. He sees first hand their loyalty and commitment to the Imperium as well as their honor and valor. Being very practical, Big G recognizes the value of having your fighting force in Imperium Nihilis and is willing to give some broad latitude to your claim of Crimson Fist-dom. He may however set some provisos in place. He does have the power and authority to officially charter your chapter. I'm sure though he would have one absolute stipulation..... CHANGE YOUR NAME. No way you say? "Ok.... here's what I can do. I can designate you "Crimson Fists in Imperium Nihilis" with all rights and privileges of the Chapter. But you can't be called Chapter Master...… 'Castellan' perhaps. Think on it and I'll get right back to you in a century or so." Subtext is that you can do whatever you want until he actually does get back to you. Ultimately Guilliman's authority would grant you rights to all necessary logistical support.... such as it is on the wrong side of the Great Rift These rights would also include the Primaris and accompanying tech support.... but 1,000 Primaris….. no way Even the Blood Angels only got 500, and that was probably the largest number ANY chapter got. According to established lore, even new chapters were started with only approximately 100 Primaris. So I think at most you're only going to get 100. Be happy with that. 

 

Chapter Organization

 

So one brother is Chapter Master proper. The other is Master of the Fleet. I can work that. 

 

The Warden faction calls the others exiles and traitors. The Crusader faction calls the others imposters and backwater pagans. There is no love lost. Both claim to be the real Crimson Fists. Both claim to be the legitimate heirs to Alexis Polux and Rogal Dorn.

I understand your desire to have something different as far as organization goes, but I honestly think that this ain't it Brother. These two statements are diametrically opposed. If your Crimson Fists believe their claim then they must be Codex compliant. Having a Chapter Master and a Master of the Fleet with identical authority is beggin' for trouble with a Capital "T". The Chapter Master is granted supreme authority over the chapter by virtue of his martial prowess in every sense. Without this authority you will eventually have a rift and before you know it you've got two more independent-minded factions that both consider themselves the 'True" Crimson Fists

 

Now being "Codex compliant" still gives you room for flexibility.... there's dogmatic Codex compliance and then there's Codex compliance with room for interpretation. There are many examples of military campaigns with two or more leaders with overlapping authority. In one case we have the Master of the Fleet working side by side with a Brother Captain who has overall authority for successful execution of a particular military operation. The Master of the Fleet would have overall authority over fleet operations until arrival "in theatre". At which point the Brother Captain assumes the position of Strategic Commander with the Master of the Fleet now assuming "tactical" responsibility of fleet operations. That's generally how these things are historically handled... and it works. 

 

Finally...

 

So space is big. These two factions meeting post the chapter conflict would be rare. But I want it to happen. To keep the fires of contention going. In the Deathwatch for sure. Maybe we say they do attend the feast of blades. Maybe they didn’t an honor duel at each festival to determine which faction participates. Make is a Space Wolf/Dark Angel thing? Anytime these groups fought a campaign together chapter champions must duel.

Yup

 

Good stuff Brother I'm looking forward to seeing more.

[Boldthreat]

All great comments Brother Lunkhead and they are really helping home this in. Thank you!

 

I think you are right. I also like the honorific titles you brought up in lieu of 2 Chapter Masters. I also like your idea that Guilliman offers to make them legitimate, as long as they change their name. They refuse, very much stubborn like their Progenitor. So how about, in lieu of an official “Chapter Master”, 1 Brother is designated Marshal of the Crimson Fists in Imperium Nihilus. It’s more of a honorary Captain rank than anything else. The other Brother is designated Castellan. His responsibilities involve the defense and upkeep of Skybreaker.

 

I would like to discuss with you regarding how much influx of Primaris they would get at this point. Would it not be safe to assume, that since they join Guilliman on his Crusade, that they would be more apt to receive reinforcements over time then say defensive chapters that were reinforced and left to their own devices?

 

Because I would like to think about where they are organizationally post the break up of the Indomitus Crusade. I think they would be more than 100 marines. I imagine they would recruit during the crusade so there is that. 500 at least? Personally, I’d forcefully recruit from every liberated world in the Crusade that I could. 1000 boys here, 1000 there. I wouldn’t care if only 10 or so made it in each batch. I would bleed worlds of their offspring to fill my Chapter. And if I couldn’t do it while under the eye of Guilliman, the moment I’m on my own in Nihilus I would.

 

Let’s look at the setting. Imperium Nihilus. This region is cut off and dying. Communication is almost non existent and every day sees it getting worse and worse. These guys thrust themselves head long into crusade after crusade after crusade. It’s a tireless effort with no respite, and only one ultimate conclusion. So these guys don’t have time to slow down and have week long selection trials and screenings. They liberate or conquer a world and demand a tithe in bodies... er boys. They would take them by force if need me. The Chapter would be a proverbial meat grinder. Even for Space Marine standards. Chapter selection would be... “did they survive implantation?” Good cause we need him pulling bolt Rifle triggers yesterday! And yes I understand the implications there.

 

They would be constantly on the move and would probably be predominately a chapter that fights in space more than their more defensively minded Brother chapters with homeworlds. So would they be mostly concerned with keeping the space lanes of the Imperium Nihilus open? Engaging fleets before they get to where they are going? Or retaking a recently taken system. Skybreaker will be very busy, indeed it will be a heavily used battering ram.

 

In short. The imperium Nihilus is a Crusader wet dream. “We are completely surrounded, they can’t get away from us this time” kind of thing.

 

The only thing keeping this Chapter going is an absolute zeal for the God Emperor of Mankind. They believe their survival is a divine mandate.

[Brother Lunkhead]

 

I think you are right. I also like the honorific titles you brought up in lieu of 2 Chapter Masters. I also like your idea that Guilliman offers to make them legitimate, as long as they change their name. They refuse, very much stubborn like their Progenitor. So how about, in lieu of an official “Chapter Master”, 1 Brother is designated Marshal of the Crimson Fists in Imperium Nihilus. It’s more of a honorary Captain rank than anything else. The other Brother is designated Castellan. His responsibilities involve the defense and upkeep of Skybreaker.

 
I think since Marshal is equivalent to Captain in rank you might want to add something to give the title a little more gravitas..... something like..... Marshal Primus of the Crimson Fists in Imperium Nihilus. It should leave no ambiguity that he is the guy in charge. He's not the chapter master, but he's not just a captain either.

 

 

 

I would like to discuss with you regarding how much influx of Primaris they would get at this point. Would it not be safe to assume, that since they join Guilliman on his Crusade, that they would be more apt to receive reinforcements over time then say defensive chapters that were reinforced and left to their own devices?

Because I would like to think about where they are organizationally post the break up of the Indomitus Crusade. I think they would be more than 100 marines. I imagine they would recruit during the crusade so there is that. 500 at least?

I don't know.... there may have been some confusion on my part. I assumed you were talking about how many Primaris Guilliman left you after the Indomitus Crusade. Where you talking about how many Marines you have in total to date?

 

Primarch Guilliman started the Indomitus Crusade with approximately fifty thousand Primaris among the Unnumbered Sons. By the end he was down to about twenty thousand (attrition from combat losses and detached service to bolster other chapters and creating new Chapters). So, given that the bulk of the Primaris are going to "official" established chapters (mostly First and Second Founding) across the galaxy, and Crimson Fists in Imperium Nihilis is NOT an "official" chapter and they're somewhat recalcitrant to boot, they would be very lucky to get one hundred experienced Primaris from out of the Unnumbered Sons. Now in addition, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that the Primarch also left you the genetic material to create four to five hundred additional Primaris Marines. So, in fairly short order you'd have about five hundred or more Primaris Marines for your chapter.

 

 

I’d forcefully recruit from every liberated world in the Crusade that I could. 1000 boys here, 1000 there. I wouldn’t care if only 10 or so made it in each batch. I would bleed worlds of their offspring to fill my Chapter. And if I couldn’t do it while under the eye of Guilliman, the moment I’m on my own in Nihilus I would.

….. and with your enthusiastic recruiting practices, you'll be up to one thousand Primaris in no time at all.

 

Hope my two cents are of some help. I've got to say Brother, you've got one kick-ass Chapter there. They are definitely going to be a force to be reckoned with  

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

 

Ha!  I'm dramatic, I love your points actually, and the whole adversity comment was tongue in cheek.  What I meant by that is at times we can get over hyped about an idea, and it's good to have other fans of the setting ground us in our approach.  It's why I like this site so much!

Ah, righto.

Forgive my caution, I've dealt with folks before who genuinely seem to think I'm out to crush their DIY dreams rather than lend a hand.

So when I saw the line about adversity and "hitting back", all I could see was a red flag, with "us vs. you" written on it - which is very much not what I'm about! 

 

 

Ace, I've never known you to be anything other than respectful and helpful, I can't imagine anyone taking your C&C the wrong way.

 

Not like some other old salts around here. 

 

Now, your marksmanship with a bolter, that's something else entirely. 

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, I get the appeal of tying your stuff closer to canon. It feels more grounded that way, in a sense. But the hard part is doing so believably.

 

 

That's the crux of the matter.

 

I don't find the concept believable.

 

This is also why I dislike the taking and fighting over a name. An old name. A name with which the (official) chapter has history, legitimacy and weight behind it. Something which would bring likely the Adeptus Terra and perhaps the Inquisition into looking into these lads. Given that they thieved a primarch level relic, this doesn't bode well for them to not simply be shot out of hand.

 

The Imperium is not a forgiving place, despite Rowboat Girlymans best efforts at reform.

 

It breaks my immersion to think they wouldn't simply find a new name, or rather be forced into selecting a new one.

 

Forgetting all that, why wouldn't Girlyman force them to change their name? He's as no nonsense as it gets these days, it would simplify his ledgers and reduce confusion in the bureaucratic hell that is the Imperium. Two records of Crimson Fists leading to supplies going awry and yet more investigations.

 

I suppose it comes down to, when someone somewhere figures this out, why would they give these guys the benefit of the doubt, beyond the chapters self-belief in their own legitimacy, which doesn't go a hell of a long way in the Imperium, doubly so for Imperium Nihilus, they wouldn't want to risk them being an Alpha Legion ploy or what have you.

 

So the Chapter Civil War is a brief conflict. It happens in the Fortress Monastery on Rynns World. 

 

My biggest problem is that you're essentially inserting something from your headcanon into official lore, which never works out well. All GW has to do is retcon or adjust some lore and your chapter is essentially up the proverbial creek without a paddle.

 

Honestly, I'd rather see a fully fleshed out chapter origins where the CF were your chapters original "training cadre". Plenty of time for them to establish an adherence to the structure and attitudes of the CF, while also allowing you to develop any problems or division between two different modes of thinking with more legitimacy. Hell, they've already got a different colour scheme, why not a new name and recolour the insignia along with it? They can still believe they're the 'true' CF's. The CF are pragmatic as hell, and accepting the change in order to continue the legacy of the chapter, even in a different name, seems along the same lines.

 

Having them break faith with their training cadre is heavy enough on it's own, without a possibly unbelievable split. Or better, having the new chapter split down the middle. One half sides with their CF training cadre, the other half striking out on their own. It still leaves you with the incredible amount of work to explain the logistical nightmare this presents if both groups decide to keep the same name, but it adds far more legitimacy to the proceedings.

 

Think about it, Papa Smurf gives the CF's Primaris reinforcements, some of which are split off to create a new chapter to control or contest a certain sector that needs it's own Astartes presence, then the civil-war/split happens, and now the two odd-couple halves are having to share the sector, it's wars, and it's resources. It allows more intrigue in terms of whether they'd even fight alongside one another given how much antipathy is present. It also allows you to write up everything you need without relying on GW's work as a crutch to your own.

 

 

I am at work, so I may have missed some nuance when I skim read this, but I just wanted to give my two cents, since it's been a long, long while between drinks in the Liber for me.

[Lord_Caerolion]

The Imperium has had two Chapters with the same name existing before, why should this time be any different? It's not like the bureaucracy of the Imperium is efficient.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

The Imperium has had two Chapters with the same name existing before, why should this time be any different? It's not like the bureaucracy of the Imperium is efficient.

 

It's a fair point, but Games Workshop has never had the best expansion on it's own work, and is rarely without error or a destruction of suspension of disbelief.

 

Hell, how over the top and overwhelmingly silly the Space Wolves have become. Wolf bloody everything in fact. Or the absolute hilarity of some of the lore of the Raven Guard and it's leaning on some rather on the nose Poe imagery and surface level native american iconography.

 

On the note of the chapters existing together, it just seems a bit much.

 

Simultaneously? Within the same year, within view of the same person of the same lifetime? Rarely. Usually these are years apart. Only one springs to mind and I'll quote the 40k Wiki on the matter

 

 

 

Canon Conflict

There is some ambiguity in existing canon in regards to the existence of the Emperor's Swords Chapter. Apparently there were two Space Marine Chapters named the Emperor's Swords, and both were destroyed in their entirety. The first was decimated by the insidious actions of the Alpha Legion on their homeworld of Ghorstangrad, after its Initiates were subverted by the Alpha Legion for 300 standard years. The world then fell to Chaos and became a stronghold for the Chaos Space Marines. The second Chapter to bear the name was destroyed when the automatons of a Necron Tomb World stirred to life beneath their fortress-monastery on their Chapter world of Bellicas in 970.M41.

 

They also only shared the name. Both insignia and colour scheme were different. It's also, given the vageries of Imperial record keeping, arguable that they didn't exist within the same span of years, they didn't even exist in the same sector as far as I can tell.

 

It is inferred that chapters have shared names over the milennia, but not within the same area of space at the same time, bearing the same heraldry and stemming from the same original chapter.

 

To me it's simply too many "and then this happened" things that follow on from one another.

 

 

That said, I'm happy to be wrong and if you can cite me something to shut me up, I'm all for it.

 

 

Look, I'm not trying to burn the idea to the ground. I simply think you're making it harder for yourself than it has to be. You're picking a narrative route that has as many road blocks as possible in the way. This makes it increasingly difficult to justify every single problem that comes up that you have to write yourself around. Trust me, it becomes wearisome having the 50th rewrite of one issue affecting multiple parts of the same IA simply because of the knock on effect that one, otherwise small issue has further on.

[Brother Lunkhead]

I think Grey Hunter Ydalir brings up some very good and valid points However, I'm going to respectfully disagree. I'm pressed for time right now, so I'm going to be brief.... I'll revisit at length if needs be in a day or two.

 

You are definitely stretching the boundaries of lore and continuity with your CF's, but so what? You haven't broken anything (yet) so, I think you should stay the course. I think the scenario you've set up with the chapter split is believable. Your CF's set out into unknown territory and were pretty much forgotten for a very long time. Only recently have they popped their heads up with the events of the Great Rift and the Indomitus Crusade. As things stand now in the lore, Imperium Nihilus is effectively cut off from Terra and the rest of the Imperium.... but it isn't lost (yet). Commander Dante has been named Lord Regent, so there is a government of sorts.... and that government needs every loyal Astartes it can get. Through their actions in the Indomitus Crusade, they've proven their value and loyalty to Guilliman (that's G-U-I-L-L-I-M-A-N, not G-I-R-L-Y-M-A-N). If you follow the scenario I suggested your CF's are recognized as a part of the CF Chapter proper but not an actual chapter.... that's the practical compromise they make to keep things functioning. Guilliman gets a sizable Astartes fighting force in Imperium Nihilus  and your Crimson Fists get a degree of recognition and for now can continue as they are without further internal conflict with the other Imperial Fists primogenitor chapters (esp. the other Crimson Fists). You're effectively isolated from those other CF's by the Great Rift for now. Of course there will eventually be a reckoning, but probably not for at least five or ten years... or five minutes depending on how soon the GW lore-smiths get bored with Imperium Nihilus..... and when that does happen, you'll have more conflict fodder for your chapter (good, right).  

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

At some point your chapter will have that meeting and they will have to decide to change their name, go renegade (loyal renegade), or whatever..... and that's just another adventure for your Chapter. I don't think you are writing your chapter into a corner by any means, but it is going to be an interesting journey for sure.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

 

I think Grey Hunter Ydalir brings up some very good and valid points However, I'm going to respectfully disagree. I'm pressed for time right now, so I'm going to be brief.... I'll revisit at length if needs be in a day or two.

 

I wouldn't have it any other way.

 

Well that's not true, you can all drop down and worship my clearly towering intellect, but that'd be boring. I kid, discussion is much more fun, and I like to be wrong, and challenged.

 

... challenged by others.... not myself.... towering intellect indeed.

 

 

 

 (that's G-U-I-L-L-I-M-A-N, not G-I-R-L-Y-M-A-N). 

 

That's what I said. I don't know what you're hearing, but I'm just saying his name brother. 

 

 

 

You are definitely stretching the boundaries of lore and continuity with your CF's, but so what? You haven't broken anything (yet) 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

At some point your chapter will have that meeting and they will have to decide to change their name, go renegade (loyal renegade), or whatever..... and that's just another adventure for your Chapter. I don't think you are writing your chapter into a corner by any means, but it is going to be an interesting journey for sure.

 

I'll address these two here. Yes, stretched is most definitely the word. However stretching it believably is the key. Everything that is done in the Liber is stretching the bounds of the established lore to fit our own custom creations.

 

To be fair, anything can be done in 40k, so long as it's written well enough. That's the key really, the suspension of disbelief. Creating something that works within and fits into the established lore is essentially sticking to the same narrative notions of suspension of disbelief as any other work of fiction. However with this universe, you have a certain set of guidelines that are best to aim for.

 

Games Workshop itself doesn't follow it's own guidelines and lore at times, but then they're the gatekeepers and the creators. To a point, they don't have to.

 

The more you mix your DIY work with official material the harder and harder it becomes to explain "why haven't we heard of them before?"

 

Stealing a primarch's weapon from a heavily established second founding chapter that has been splashed all over official sources begs that question. Why aren't they and the events listed here part of the official history of the chapter?

 

 

 

Alright, let's assume that's not a problem.

 

What about the Crusade of Rightious Liberation that almost destroyed the chapter? That was a crusade fought over a few hundred years and left them with less than two companies of battle brothers.

 

How did this almost catastrophic result affect the character of the the 'crusaders'?

 

Let's also consider what is being stated as fact, that the (crusader) Crimson Fists believed that they were created to crusade, when in fact every chapter starts out this way unless a specific world has been selected for them before their founding for one reason or another. The Black Templars are noted specifically as believing as their founder Sigismund did that they were to continue the Great Crusade. I don't remember this being specifically mentioned in regards to any other second founding Imperial Fists chapter. 

 

If you have a reference for how Alexis Polux did anything to ingrain this belief of 'crusading only' as well, I'd love to see it, because I don't seem to find it anywhere. Beyond the assumption being he was a crusade era marine.

 

To balance this out, I'm looking for reasoning and explanation to the points I raise, I'm trying to get you to think about how you want to resolve this in the mind of the reader, since the old adage of 'if one person says it, ten are thinking it' holds true even here. Please don't take me the wrong way, I'm just blunt.

 

Anyway, I'm off home. I'll check back later.

[Brother Lunkhead]

 

 

 (that's G-U-I-L-L-I-M-A-N, not G-I-R-L-Y-M-A-N). 

 

That's what I said. I don't know what you're hearing, but I'm just saying his name brother. 

 

 

You mean to tell me we have audio...… I had no idea. Well brother, what can I say, but that's A-M-A-Z-I-N-G ..........

 

……. Meanwhile, back at the ranch (i.e. back on topic)……

 

Once again Brother Grey, very good and valid points one and all ...... I will of course respectfully disagree, again 

 

……. Yes, stretched is most definitely the word. However stretching it believably is the key. Everything that is done in the Liber is stretching the bounds of the established lore to fit our own custom creations.

 

To be fair, anything can be done in 40k, so long as it's written well enough. That's the key really, the suspension of disbelief. Creating something that works within and fits into the established lore is essentially sticking to the same narrative notions of suspension of disbelief as any other work of fiction. However with this universe, you have a certain set of guidelines that are best to aim for.

Stretching credibly and in a well written way are definitely key, and I think we have both here. The majority of detailed Crimson Fist proper lore is fit into relatively small boxes of time, the Ryann's World disaster and the return of The Primarch (he's BLUE you know) and a few others briefly here and there. That leaves plenty of room to insert other events (oh so carefully please). Do you risk conflicts in continuity if GW blunders into that particular part of the sandbox? Yup, but I don't think it's a big risk in this case, considering all of the open space in this Chapter's history.

 

The more you mix your DIY work with official material the harder and harder it becomes to explain "why haven't we heard of them before?"

True, but the Brothers Bold have slipped their chapter's origin into a relatively quiet place in Crimson Fists lore and quietly (metaphoricly speaking) moved them out. We haven't heard about them because the Crimson Fists proper does not wish this rather embarrassing piece of chapter lore to get out....that's credible.

 

Stealing a primarch's weapon from a heavily established second founding chapter that has been splashed all over official sources begs that question. Why aren't they and the events listed here part of the official history of the chapter?

I think Brother Boldthreat explains that and why no word in chapter history quite nicely here:

 

So the Chapter Civil War is a brief conflict. It happens in the Fortress Monastery on Rynns World. Taking a bit from other areas of the lore... it’s quickly realized by both sides that it would be a war of mutual annihilation. Most of the Crusader faction are warriors recruited whilst on crusade previously, not of the Loki Sector, though they sway some of the younger brothers to their cause. Both factions begrudgingly accept that one group will stay and one will leave the Loki Sector forever. What would you think of the group having some kind of tournament over chapter relics? So the relics weren’t stolen, but won and lost in a linked series of duels.

 

The Warden faction calls the others exiles and traitors. The Crusader faction calls the others imposters and backwater pagans. There is no love lost. Both claim to be the real Crimson Fists. Both claim to be the legitimate heirs to Alexis Polux and Rogal Dorn.

I think that works

 

What about the Crusade of Rightious Liberation that almost destroyed the chapter? That was a crusade fought over a few hundred years and left them with less than two companies of battle brothers.

 

How did this almost catastrophic result affect the character of the the 'crusaders'?

A most excellent question..... I'd like to see that too.

 

If you have a reference for how Alexis Polux did anything to ingrain this belief of 'crusading only' as well, I'd love to see it, because I don't seem to find it anywhere. Beyond the assumption being he was a crusade era marine.

There is nothing there, but I don't think there needs to be either. The Crimson Fists, after crusading across the galaxy for centuries are gifted a homeworld where they will begin a new chapter (pardon the pun) in their history. However, a sizeable faction has engrained in their psyche that they should continue as a crusade chapter and anything else is a betrayal of tradition and honor. A fight ensues and ….. so on. Being the stubborn sons of Dorn that they are, I can see this happening.

 

I can understand how while stretching the lore of 40k, some are hesitant about stretching it too far into the rediculous..... for example:

 

Primarch G, while almost singlehandedly putting the Imperium back together after a great tragic civil war, and with the help of a uber-brilliant magos of the Adeptus Mechanicum sets about developing the next phase of Astartes. They will be stronger, faster, tougher in every aspect, plus they will have cool new armor, bolt rifles, and hover tanks. Tragically, he is killed by Daemon Prince Brother F. Ten thousand years later, on the cusp of a new galaxy-wide war, Primarch G is miraculously resurrected and along with Archmagos C, who is equally miraculously still alive and has been working on this project all along, execute their plans and save the Imperium once again.

 

...... but that would be too ridiculous, right  

 

I'll shut up for now and turn this over to the Brothers Bold. What sayeth thou Brothers?