IA: Crimson Fists

[Boldthreat]

Oh man, a pretty good discussion was going on and I almost missed it! Sorry all. The Holidays have been fast approaching and work has been non stop. I promise I’m getting somewhere with this, I’m in the process of stripping some miniature today to go with this scheme. Soon lol.

 

I apologize for taking so long to respond GHY, I also want to apologize for the manner of this reply, it is on my phone and I’m going to just wing some responses randomly.

 

The first thing of note is that this does have precedent in official Lore. An almost exact thing happens with the Iron Hands in the Moirae Schism. This happened during thr Nova Terra Interregnum. In fact it got so riven with Discord that an all out civil war was seemingly inevitable. In fact the Red Talons would indeed fight a war, with the Moirae faction in the Red Talons being wiped out. The Iron Hands didn’t get that far though, as the Clan Counsel agreed that the heretical Iron Hands would would leave.

 

The group that left, despite their banishment, still considered themselves Iron Hands and loyal servants to the Imperium. They went on crusading as a fleet based Chapter against the Imperiums foes. I do not know how long they did this, if it’s mentioned. When the Nova Terra Interregnum was over, the Imperium launched the Great Cull... these Iron Hands were at the forefront of the campaign. Whilst they were in exile Crusading, they were bolstered by other Iron Hand and successor brethren who shared their beliefs, and they also continued recruiting. By the end of the Great Cull they were several hundred warriors approaching Chapter size.

 

In recognition for their deeds in the Great Cull, the High Lords of Terra recognized them as an official chapter, and these Iron Hands were bestowed the name: Sons of Madusa.

 

So in reality, I’m not doing much different here. 1500 years prior to the current timeline, I’m saying there was a Chapter conflict in the Crimson Fists that resulted in a similar situation. A brief civil war was fought and both sides avoid mutual assured destruction only via one group leaving and one staying.

 

The major difference here is that I’m not saying there was a scenario where the Crimson Fists in exile were honored with another name. Indeed they would view this as an insult. They are sons of Dorn, and stubborn pride is literally genetic here lol. The only reason their armor is painted different, in lore hand wavium fashion, is because the white armor is a symbolic thing honoring those who died in the civil war, as the warriors of those times marked themselves as such to identify themselves as of the Crusader cause, opposed to the Warden faction that marked themselves with a Red Gauntlet.

 

And understand, this group believes they ARE the Crimson Fists. Remember, the Crimson Fists were a fleet based Crusading Chapter for 9000 years. The Crusader Faction believes they are the legitimate heirs of that heritage. Believing the Warden faction are imposters who ultimately sold their souls and sovereignty to the High Lords for their own world. A decision made, in their minds, in weakness. I believe that’s just as “real” of a conflict as what hit the Iron Hands.

 

Regarding the Crusade of Righteous Liberation. This event actually takes place hundreds of years prior to the Crimson Fists gaining dominion of Rynns World, post the Vortigern (going off memory here) Crusade. So this “Crusader Crimson Fists” faction would view this Crusade as an exemplary historical event that justifies and fuels their behavior.

 

And they don’t steal Chapter Relics. Indeed they believe those relics are rightfully theirs. After what was discussed in this thread with everyone here, I like the idea of writing that these two factions, prior to the exile, had a series of honor duels over different relics and trinkets. I also like the idea that Whenever this group meets the other, a duel of champions is a necessity. Ala Dark Angels and Space Wolves. I also like the idea that prior to the Feast of Blades, these groups fight their own duel to see which group competes in the event proper. This way, when GW says the Crimson Fists participated in this event or that, I can say “that was my guys” or not. It all depends with how vague GW is with their Lore. And I like that. I like having that wiggle room.

 

And regarding the frustration of doing this, when we all know GW will never legitimize it. That’s okay. They were never going to legitimize my DIY Chapter, or Chapter Master, or Captain. So I have to do what everyone else here does... assume this story happens outside this novel or that codex. So it’s no loss for me. Nor is it frustrating. I am just fine imagining how Pedro Kantor would interact with my guy, or how pissed he would be if this “Crusaders in Exile” group offered to merge their chapters if he agreed to abandon Rynns World and Crusade as Dorn and Polux intended... prior to the Primaris refit of course lol.

 

What’s great about this, is there is so much “Space” here that we can work with. There is 10,000 years of vague, conflicting and non existent lore that we can play with. Chapters lock things away in secret, some things are purposefully forgotten, some forgotten accidentally. There is so much space for conspiracies, long lost legends and all kinds of things. For me, the greatest 40k line is “Everything you have been told is a Lie”. I’m getting a lot of joy out of filling a void in the official cannon regarding one of my favorite official Chapters. It’s Gratifying to study and research existing canon and try to fit this idea in without it conflicting with anything else in existing lore. Space is big, 10,000 years is big, so why keep our stories small? I honestly think it’s more realistic for inter chapter conflicts, hidden pasts, and brotherly vendettas.

 

And regarding Guilliman. It’s the most difficult thing to conceptualize on for sure. It all comes down to ones understanding of said Primarch. What I believe about the Avenging Son, above anything else, is he is Practical and very Political Savvy. What I would like to do, is try to paint Guilliman as a neutral party in a Chapter conflict. He doesn’t have time for petty disputes. He realizes that this Dark Imperium needs Pedro’s Crimson Fists to hold the line, and he also needs these Nova Crimson Fists attacking the enemy in Imperium Nihilus. Hell he probably doesn’t think these guys in Nihilus are going to last theoretically or practically. Due to the nature of this side of the Galaxy. So he strokes their ego, uses them as a battering Ram in his efforts in the Nihilus and sends them off on their way before going back across the Great Rift. Expectant that he won’t see them again, but with a pat on the back in case he does. Ultimately he doesn’t care.

 

Ultimately we can’t please everyone. And that’s ok. What I would argue, is that this setting is ripe for this kind of stuff. Indeed I believe it encourages it. And for me, trying to integrate my creation as close as possible whilst doing something unique is very rewarding. What’s fascinating about going this route, is someone can for sure say “that didn’t happen though”... to which my response would be “but you can’t say it couldn’t have happened”, all because of what the lore doesn’t say about this vast open setting where 80 percent of the lore is vacant, and 20 percent of it is a lie anyway. We ever get a novel on the Vortegern Crusade and I’ll sweat bullets for sure, but that’s a game of chicken I’m willing to play.

 

I hope you all find this discussion as fun as I do. I cannot wait to take this up against someone else’s Crimson Fists... I’ll say “brother, have I got a story for you”! Lol.

[Boldthreat]

And I appreciate what you have said Brother Lunkhead. You indeed see the intent of what we are trying to do. Thank you for your continued support!

 

In a strange way I’m trying to push boundaries, but at the same time I don’t feel that what I’m actually doing is pushing a boundary. I definitely don’t think it’s lore breaking. If I were giving Abaddon a wedgie or recruiting female space marines, or god forbid using traitor gene seed, then yeah. But I’m not. I’m filling a piece of Crimson Fist history that’s never been filled before. And I’m separating it from their official iteration whilst keeping it in the same universe. Heck I’m practically filling that void with an aped version of their Sons of Madusa storyline, all to justify my white painted marines who use the Crimson Fist chapter badge and their rules. I’m just adding a pinch of Black Templar zeal, a dab of 7th Legion stubbornness, a dash of Marines Errant void specialization and maybe a bit of ambiguous Alpha Legion, but I’ll deny the last part.

 

It actually wouldn’t bother me if someone thought this was all wrong. Heck maybe in Lore it is. What if it Were all a big lie. But that would just open another set of questions and kick ass stories... if they aren’t a legitimate band of exiled crimson fists... then where did they come from? Who set them up and why the charade? Not that I would ever go that route, but I sure as hell would play with it. What if the missile malfunction on Rynns World wasn’t an accident... what if this band of imposters was a part of a bigger plan? Crazy? You freaking bet! But in this setting... it’s just Tuesday... and that’s why I LOVE IT lol.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

Oh don't get me wrong, I enjoy it all. 

 

I am more likely than not to just dig my heels in harder the deeper you push back, but to my mind it only helps things as you have to either think ways around it, through it or adjust it as you see fit.

 

The first thing of note is that this does have precedent in official Lore. An almost exact thing happens with the Iron Hands in the Moirae Schism. This happened during thr Nova Terra Interregnum. In fact it got so riven with Discord that an all out civil war was seemingly inevitable. In fact the Red Talons would indeed fight a war, with the Moirae faction in the Red Talons being wiped out. The Iron Hands didn’t get that far though, as the Clan Counsel agreed that the heretical Iron Hands would would leave.

 

Ok, so I'll just past what is to me, a sticking point. Technically you're correct. However only technically, since we also have to go under the assumption that your retelling is accurate.

 

One of these things happened and is chronicled as having happened to an official chapter. One of these things has a conclusion that allows both groups to continue on and not interfere with each other. I can bet you the the Sons of Medusa believed they were the truer Medusans as well, since belief is entirely personal and subjective.

One of these things is being relayed to us about an official chapter, that isn't listed in official lore. Now to be fair I've seen this done before here in the Liber, but to a chapter that has almost zero official presence yet does exist in it.

 

It's a hard line to walk. You have the onmiscient but also unreliable narrator that is GW, who gives you the reader information you shouldn't have, but that may also be totally false. This is honestly why a lot of 40k lore is compelling, yet also unbelievably frustrating, depending on the subject you're looking into.

 

I'll leave this be, since I just had to rewrite all this because of a stuff up on my part. Lovely, so this may come across as me being more frustrated with what I'm criticising, but rest assured it's just because I've pulled a thirteen hour day including travel and I'm kicking myself for my own idiocy.

 

I guess this is just something I'll have to get over, since it seems the salty old stick in the mud that is me is going to have to let it go.

 

Maybe.

 

Possibly.

 

Eeeshhh.

 

Right.

 

Moving swiftly on.

 

 

 

And they don’t steal Chapter Relics. Indeed they believe those relics are rightfully theirs.

 

I do believe that wouldn't necessarily hold up in court today, less so in the 41st Milennium. Considering how zealous and protective Astartes are of their gene-heritage and relics thereof, I can't see how this would in any way allow them to part ways in posession of it.

 

This is only something that can happen while Imperium Nihilus exists.

 

 

Ok, let me digress somewhat.

 

 

If I was to give some actual constructive to go along with all my criticism I'd write it so that everything, the chapters entire existence hangs in the balance. They fight for the Imperium even though in all likelihood, if the Imperium wins out they will be in a lot of strife. Not only are they deemed as traitors by their kin, their kin are one of the most well regarded by the High Lords of Terra.

 

They fight because they are loyal beyond reason. That their stubborn pride may well go before their fall and they to some extent know it. The only thing that may swing the pendulum in their favour is Big Blue.

 

See, now this is where the real character, the character of these guys that makes them unique is divined.

 

Don't give them amicable duels like the DA and SW. Don't give them the feast of blades, hell, don't even have a Legion wide intervention. To my mind, play it up. Play up the almost brutal nihilism in fighting for the Imperium, knowing full well it could be their brothers, their actual brothers who are also still as loyal as they are likely to be their executioners afterwards.

 

Have their only saving grace be old Rowboat himself, as unreliable as that could be. Don't tell Big Blue about the relic, don't tell anyone. It was Girlyman's brother's sword who he likely thinks is dead, stolen (yes no matter if you believe it's yours, if it given to your brother and you take it, it's still theft) from his sons. How do you think he'd react once all is said and done? Your best bet is that all the original Space Marines are executed with the Primaris doomed to a penitent crusade.

 

Now that as a core concept I can get behind.

 

You've probably been beating me over the head with this as it is and I've just been too focused on the earlier roadblock to see it..... even though I could argue you'd get to the core of the chapter without that conceit to the whole thing. But I wouldn't do a thing like that.

 

I feel like I'm starting to ramble.

 

I'm bloody knackered.

 

I'll check back later!

[Brother Cambrius]

  ...   ... Ydalir?  YDALIR! Sweet merciful Emperor! Another old Liberite walks the hallowed halls! (I still owe you that pizza...)

 

Now then, onto this challenging undertaking.

 

First off, well done on working your adamantine socks off, Boldthreat on building this up with plenty of lore and some solid foundations to try and flesh out, key thign now is ensuring it grows out well and not as some mutated limb of broken immersion. :D

 

So a few things to possibly suggest/spitball and direct to ease the strain on some lore points:

 

The relic of Dorn and the fight with the Wardens:

 

Now then, a little inter-chapter war always makes some delicious backstory, but always in an amount that prevents scrutiny from the =][= or other Chapters/Administratum. So with this one, from what I am getting this disagreement and schism happens around the time the High Lords bequeath Rynn's World and the Loki Sector to the Crimson Fists, which is after the Vortigern Crusade according to the new Codex Supplement.

Now first to counter the war happening on the surface of Rynn's World in the Arx Tyrannus, after the establishment of the Fortress Monastery (which would take a very, very long time), this could happen very early on afterward upon the Rutilus Tyrannus and surrounding vessels. The Ships themselves would establish excellent islands of opinion for Wardens and Crusaders depending on their commanders' own outlook. This would help in keeping this fight a lot more in house and be settled without too much annihilation, as the decision is made to split away as the Crusading force and "true" Crimson Fists, the ships also may happen to carry some Relics granted to their Captains etc that would become their own despite requests later as the white CFs crusade far beyond the general reach of the Wardens of Rynn's World. This could include a sword of repute or even a boltgun or pistol. Perhaps even a tome, whichever floats your boat.

In terms of their announcement of the split, it wouldn't surprise me a communication is made to the High Lords of Terra of this incident, brother chapters close to the CFs may also notice the sudden absence of allies and brothers and questions would be raised. The Chapter holds a good amount of clout with the Imperium's highest for their reputation and honour and thus I strongly doubt they would be denied this action for the sake of the stability of the Loki Sector. The Crusading Fists however are looked upon with a degree of contempt by the allies and Administratum as the Wardens painted up a bad picture of how they turned their backs on the gift of the Loki Sector in a snub. Thus piecemeal support and no true official recognition.

Atop all of this, with the destruction of the Arx Tyrannus and so much of Rynn's World's Crimson Fists, records were lost, Dreadnoughts likely lost too with memory of the schism and thus consigned to disappear beneath history's sands of time. Thus we stand now with the Crusading Crimson Fists beyond the Cicatrix Maledictum and Loki Sector Crimson Fists as two independent Chapters, the Wardens know only of a story of brothers that snubbed their name, taking the relics and wargear they carried to carry out their prosecution of war in the Emperor's Name, but in the name of the Crimson Fists in a slight of honour. In terms of retribution, the Wardens had enough on their plate to deal with to not commit forces in a reprisal crusade as the decades then centuries passed. 

 

Robert Guilliman and the Indomitus Crusade:

 

Now this opens up aplenty of options and balances to fit nicely within the established universe. Notably having the Crusading CFs join the Indomitus Crusade despite their depleted numbers after the stemming of the Iron Warriors' rampaging wave would certainly display the tenets of Dorn and those relics they possessed from the schism would solidify Guilliman's opinion that these are true warriors and crusaders befitting the Imperium, thus Primaris reinforcement. He might suggest a name change, as his word is law as the Regent of the Imperium acting in his Father's name, but perhaps he might relent to ensure that in desperate times, these Astartes may continue to serve without distraction of being forced to change their names and titles with bitterness in their hearts. Down that road ill-tidings lie... (-cough- Calth- cough-)

 

Recruitment:

 

Nothing wrong with this here. On worlds numbering billions and trillions, what is a few 1000 boys?

 

All in all, a solid start and plenty to work on and discuss and debate as required. Keep it up (and remember, first and forement this is your chapter, what you decide is law in your own work and we do not hold jurisdiction over that. Roll with what you find fits best. We just like to poke and prod to help keep the idea standing as desired by yourself. :) )

 

Cambrius

[Brother Lunkhead]

Greetings all..... a good discussion indeed. Thanks for the kind words Brother Bold.... although I'm rarely sure if I'm just addressing one or both of you. It's a little like having a discussion with someone with multiple personality disorder Definitely keeps me one my toes.

 

Since I've got posts here from everyone involved in the current discussion here I'll try to address your points individually, or together when it comes to the brothers

 

Brother(s) Bold:

 

Good reference to the Moirae Schism. Although I don't think it's "an almost exact thing" it's definitely good enough for our purposes here when looking at precedents. It was definitely a civil war level disagreement within the Iron Hands where one faction is sent away and is eventually after many fine deeds recognized as a chapter in their own right.

 

…. and at this point I'll take a moment to discuss the idea of "precedents" when it comes to these kinds of debates. Just a word of caution, I've found that quite often (not necessarily here.... at least not yet) someone will almost inevitably insist on an exactness in precedent for someone to justify their point to that person's satisfaction. Much like the old saying about history repeating itself, you will never have an exact precedent. History never actually repeats itself (whether you learn or not) there are simply events that are analogous to other events. Let's all keep this in mind.

 

I think nine thousand years of crusading could definitely embed itself as an idea that "this is what we do" in elements of the Crimson Fists and since the disagreement stayed in house, there's no real reason that anyone else would know about it. They are simply Crimson Fists in white armor...… "It's in honor of fallen brothers, and why yes, it IS none of your business."

 

 

 

And regarding Guilliman. It’s the most difficult thing to conceptualize on for sure. It all comes down to ones understanding of said Primarch. What I believe about the Avenging Son, above anything else, is he is Practical and very Political Savvy. What I would like to do, is try to paint Guilliman as a neutral party in a Chapter conflict. He doesn’t have time for petty disputes. He realizes that this Dark Imperium needs Pedro’s Crimson Fists to hold the line, and he also needs these Nova Crimson Fists attacking the enemy in Imperium Nihilus. Hell he probably doesn’t think these guys in Nihilus are going to last theoretically or practically. Due to the nature of this side of the Galaxy. So he strokes their ego, uses them as a battering Ram in his efforts in the Nihilus and sends them off on their way before going back across the Great Rift. Expectant that he won’t see them again, but with a pat on the back in case he does. Ultimately he doesn’t care.

 
I think you've made a good point here. To the Lord Commander, the Crimson Fists in Imperium Nihilis, in spite of any potential problems are a clear force multiplier in the region and therefore a benefit to the Imperium. Any problem they might represent in the future is just that, in the future (if there is indeed a future) and can be dealt with then. Although, if I were you, I'd start thinking about another name you might want to call yourselves and lay claim to it.... just a suggestion.

 

 

 

Ultimately we can’t please everyone. And that’s ok. What I would argue, is that this setting is ripe for this kind of stuff. Indeed I believe it encourages it. And for me, trying to integrate my creation as close as possible whilst doing something unique is very rewarding. What’s fascinating about going this route, is someone can for sure say “that didn’t happen though”... to which my response would be “but you can’t say it couldn’t have happened”, all because of what the lore doesn’t say about this vast open setting where 80 percent of the lore is vacant, and 20 percent of it is a lie anyway. We ever get a novel on the Vortegern Crusade and I’ll sweat bullets for sure, but that’s a game of chicken I’m willing to play.

 
Well said

 

Brother Grey:

 

If I tend to disagree with your points, it's only because you're wrong ..... I'm kidding of course. You've made excellent points. I just tend to lean more in favor of creators because I like to encourage these IA creations and want to encourage the stretching of boundaries. Fortunately, we have something quite good here with the Crimson Fists in Imperium Nihilis, so it's easy. You make a most excellent Devil's Advocate and it's been a pleasure arguing points with you. 

 

 

 

Boldthreat, on 17 Nov 2019 - 3:22 PM, said:http://bolterandchainsword.com//public/style_images/carbon_red/snapback.png

I do believe that wouldn't necessarily hold up in court today, less so in the 41st Milennium. Considering how zealous and protective Astartes are of their gene-heritage and relics thereof, I can't see how this would in any way allow them to part ways in posession of it.

 

And they don’t steal Chapter Relics. Indeed they believe those relics are rightfully theirs.

 

This is only something that can happen while Imperium Nihilus exists.

 

I think it's now been established that the relics were won in fair agreed upon duals. This would have the force of law within the chapter. Now that doesn't mean all is well and friendly now. Simply dueling for relics and letting the crusading brothers do their crusading thing doesn't make things amicable. The two factions are still wary of each other and consider the other traitors to the cause. They simply see mutual annihilation as the greater evil..... there most still at some point be a reckoning. But, I think this particular issue is settled.

 

 

 

Don't give them amicable duels like the DA and SW. Don't give them the feast of blades, hell, don't even have a Legion wide intervention. To my mind, play it up. Play up the almost brutal nihilism in fighting for the Imperium, knowing full well it could be their brothers, their actual brothers who are also still as loyal as they are likely to be their executioners afterwards.

Good points.... definitely something to seriously consider. However, I don't think the duels are at all amicable, simply a workable alternative to destroying the chapter. Also, when it comes to the Feast of Blades, quite right, our Crusading Brothers are unlikely to be EVER invited to that family gathering.

 

 

 

Your best bet is that all the original Space Marines are executed with the Primaris doomed to a penitent crusade.

That could very well happen if the Crusading Brothers don't ever accept the fact that the cards are stacked against them when it comes to being recognized as the "real" Crimson Fists. But that's far in the future, and anything can happen between now and then.

 

I must say that this whole discussion has been both lively and civilized. These things can sad to say too often degenerate, and I'm pleased to see that it has remained classy. No doubt this is due to the high moral character of all involved 

 

Just one last thing......

 

"Rowboat" and "Girlyman's"

Brother Grey, your spelling still sucks

 

NOTE:  As I was writing up my ramblings, Brother Cam interjected some words of wisdom, so to Brother Cam I say....

 

Well put

 

Cheers All

[Brother Cambrius]

Don't mind Ydalir's spelling, Russ' boys have always been more focused on ale and axes etc. :P

 

But some good points added on Brother Lunkhead! Plenty of fluff to maul and discuss further.

 

Cambrius

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

Don't mind Ydalir's spelling, Russ' boys have always been more focused on ale and axes etc.

 

But some good points added on Brother Lunkhead! Plenty of fluff to maul and discuss further.

 

Cambrius

 

Hah! I don't know what you're talking about, The Blazing Sons have no issues.... I just can't change my name. An affectation from a wolf-based deployment.

 

See? I can spell Wolf, Wulfen, Russ, Wolf-Riders, Wolf-Lord, Wolf....Wolf....Wolf.... 

 

..... Sorry, I got stuck for a moment there.

 

Moving on Wo- err... once again.

 

(The reality is I like the organisation of the Grey Hunters as veterans, solid, dependable brothers, and I like the name. That was basically it.)

 

 

 

I think it's now been established that the relics were won in fair agreed upon duals. This would have the force of law within the chapter. Now that doesn't mean all is well and friendly now. Simply dueling for relics and letting the crusading brothers do their crusading thing doesn't make things amicable. The two factions are still wary of each other and consider the other traitors to the cause. They simply see mutual annihilation as the greater evil..... there most still at some point be a reckoning. But, I think this particular issue is settled.

 

Fair call. I must have missed that somewhere in my haze. My apologies if I harped on a bit too much. I have been known to be like a dog with a bone at times.

 

Or a wolf with a bone... no, no don't start that again.

 

 

Good points.... definitely something to seriously consider. However, I don't think the duels are at all amicable, simply a workable alternative to destroying the chapter. Also, when it comes to the Feast of Blades, quite right, our Crusading Brothers are unlikely to be EVER invited to that family gathering.

 

 

 

Agreed. My reasoning for dispensing with anything amicable and ramping up the tension is that it creates a better narrative to me.

 

The more you make things 'amicable' (or at least, amicable-enough), the less interesting the conflict you've set up for the two chapters, because you're ratcheting the severity down.

 

Perhaps you can have the honour duels if you wish, but play up the attitude problem. Conflict is what makes an interesting story, if everyone just got along or was well adjusted enough to put petty differences, hell, even major matters of honour and blood aside for the common good... well let's just say we wouldn't be playing 40k.

 

 

I like conflict!

 

I like playing devils advocate. I like arguing. I like causing conflict for the author as it also drives progress.

 

 

Couldn't tell as I'm so sweet and pleasant. 

[Brother Lunkhead]

 

Perhaps you can have the honour duels if you wish, but play up the attitude problem. Conflict is what makes an interesting story, if everyone just got along or was well adjusted enough to put petty differences, hell, even major matters of honour and blood aside for the common good... well let's just say we wouldn't be playing 40k.

 

I don't think these are honour duels. More like duels between chapter champions to decide serious issues that would otherwise be decided on the battlefield between armies, sort of like this, or this... all well established in myth and literature (although I must confess, I've yet to be able to cite a real world example.... pity) and it fits well into the 40K-verse.

 

 

 

I like conflict!

Clearly

[Ace Debonair]

On a further read, I think having your guys take part in the Feast of Blades is pushing believability a little too far as it currently stands. The more I think about it, the more problems I find with it.
 
Bear with me, this might be a slightly rambling post.
 
The Crimson Fists (official) presumably go to the Feast of Blades. Assuming they do exactly as you currently suggest and politely duel the Crimson Fists (DIY) for the right to do so, surely at least some of the other sons of Dorn would ask why at this Feast the Crimson Fists aren't wearing blue. News of your Chapter's existence would spread, and I feel like this is a Chapter that needs to be largely ignored by 99.9% of the Imperium to work believably.
 
Furthermore, If the CF (official) and the CF (DIY) each think the other is a dirty traitor and imposter, they certainly wouldn't meet up and just have duels to see who gets to go to the Feast; that right surely belongs rightfully and indelibly to the True Crimson Fists.

Since both factions believe themselves to be the True Crimson Fists, and both are certainly stubborn enough to fight to the death over it, then that's exactly what would happen. Which is a big problem vis-à-vis believability, since I find it really hard to accept the Crimson Fists (either of them) would just let a faction they consider traitors and betrayers of what the Chapter ever stood for take their rightful place at the Feast of Blades.
 
My solution to this problem?

It'd be better if your lads simply didn't ever get the chance to take part in the Feast of Blades - the enemies of humanity hardly stop for special occasions too, after all.
 
Heck, why not go further? The Crimson Fists (DIY) could have always been against such flagrant displays of grandeur, arguing the real champions of Dorn are the ones who are out there and fighting, all day every day, not the ones taking part in fancy tournaments. The Feast of Blades is a grand ideal, and maybe once all the heretics, aliens and mutants are dead, the Crimson Fists (DIY) will think of attending. Until then, the Crusade beckons.
 
Dented armour and determination, fighting to the bitter end against enemies on all sides - that's a real crusading Crimson Fist (DIY), not some polished, preening showpiece duellist in a hall somewhere.
 

Ace, I've never known you to be anything other than respectful and helpful, I can't imagine anyone taking your C&C the wrong way.
 
Not like some other old salts around here. 
 
Now, your marksmanship with a bolter, that's something else entirely. 

I wasn't sure at first, but by the Throne, it is Ydalir.
 
Welcome back, brother. It's been a while - clearly long enough for you to forget that Ace Debonair never needs to make a shot twice.
 

Primarch G, while almost singlehandedly putting the Imperium back together after a great tragic civil war, and with the help of a uber-brilliant magos of the Adeptus Mechanicum sets about developing the next phase of Astartes. They will be stronger, faster, tougher in every aspect, plus they will have cool new armor, bolt rifles, and hover tanks. Tragically, he is killed by Daemon Prince Brother F. Ten thousand years later, on the cusp of a new galaxy-wide war, Primarch G is miraculously resurrected and along with Archmagos C, who is equally miraculously still alive and has been working on this project all along, execute their plans and save the Imperium once again.

...... but that would be too ridiculous, right

...That's probably the single most divisive piece of lore in the last decade or so, which makes that an interesting choice to make your point with, brother.

 

Regardless, as a proud Liberite, I have no problem with helping my brothers and sisters in words set the bar for their lore at "Better-written than GW's own stuff", as lofty a goal as that might be.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

On a further read, I think having your guys take part in the Feast of Blades is pushing believability a little too far as it currently stands. The more I think about it, the more problems I find with it.

 

Bear with me, this might be a slightly rambling post.

 

The Crimson Fists (official) presumably go to the Feast of Blades. Assuming they do exactly as you currently suggest and politely duel the Crimson Fists (DIY) for the right to do so, surely at least some of the other sons of Dorn would ask why at this Feast the Crimson Fists aren't wearing blue. News of your Chapter's existence would spread, and I feel like this is a Chapter that needs to be largely ignored by 99.9% of the Imperium to work believably.

 

Furthermore, If the CF (official) and the CF (DIY) each think the other is a dirty traitor and imposter, they certainly wouldn't meet up and just have duels to see who gets to go to the Feast; that right surely belongs rightfully and indelibly to the True Crimson Fists.

 

Since both factions believe themselves to be the True Crimson Fists, and both are certainly stubborn enough to fight to the death over it, then that's exactly what would happen. Which is a big problem vis-à-vis believability, since I find it really hard to accept the Crimson Fists (either of them) would just let a faction they consider traitors and betrayers of what the Chapter ever stood for take their rightful place at the Feast of Blades.

 

My solution to this problem?

 

It'd be better if your lads simply didn't ever get the chance to take part in the Feast of Blades - the enemies of humanity hardly stop for special occasions too, after all.

 

Heck, why not go further? The Crimson Fists (DIY) could have always been against such flagrant displays of grandeur, arguing the real champions of Dorn are the ones who are out there and fighting, all day every day, not the ones taking part in fancy tournaments. The Feast of Blades is a grand ideal, and maybe once all the heretics, aliens and mutants are dead, the Crimson Fists (DIY) will think of attending. Until then, the Crusade beckons.

 

Dented armour and determination, fighting to the bitter end against enemies on all sides - that's a real crusading Crimson Fist (DIY), not some polished, preening showpiece duellist in a hall somewhere.

 

 

 

By George I think he's got it!

 

This is very much in the same vein I was driving at, and as usual Ace has upstaged me with all of his debonair-ing all over the place. 

 

In all (what little I have left) seriousness, this is a fantastic interpretation in my mind, and neatly ties up the loose threads I keep pulling at in my attempt to unravel the whole tapestry.

 

 

I wasn't sure at first, but by the Throne, it is Ydalir. 

 

Welcome back, brother. It's been a while - clearly long enough for you to forget that Ace Debonair never needs to make a shot twice. 

 

 

 

Yes, your first shot was great, I'm dead and I've come back to haunt you over your rather dreadful shot placement in that it hit me.

 

Or you missed.

 

Since I'm not feeling too ethereal, I think I can safely say the latter. I'll send you a 'bolt-o-gram' and enclose a token of my gratitude.

 

I actually reread the collaborative narrative we all had a hand in (can't find it now, for some reason) as well as your Stonebound. Good times.

 

I also realized I'm hardly the best at giving good C&C, but I am good at delivering conflict and forcing someone to think, so I'm happy with that.

 

Anyway, I shan't derail this any further, but it is good to be back, and see a few familiar faces still kicking about. 

[Boldthreat]

I think that this is the way to go as well after much thinking. I will pull back on the feast of blades stuff and abandon it.

[Ace Debonair]

I think that this is the way to go as well after much thinking. I will pull back on the feast of blades stuff and abandon it.

I mean, I like the Feast of Blades too, I just think it creates more problems than it's worth for your boys.

Sorry again if I've come across as harsh in saying so!

 

 

Yes, your first shot was great, I'm dead and I've come back to haunt you over your rather dreadful shot placement in that it hit me.

 

Or you missed.

 

Since I'm not feeling too ethereal, I think I can safely say the latter. I'll send you a 'bolt-o-gram' and enclose a token of my gratitude.

 

There are more targets in the galaxy than you, brother.

If you think I aimed at you and missed, then the odds are good I was shooting at something else.

[Boldthreat]

Not harsh at all Brother! It’s been a busy time at work and I was honestly rushing to get a reply Whilst waiting for a meeting to be over lol.

 

But I think you have the right of it. One of the reasons I liked the feast of blades was to keep the contention current between official and diy factions. But that’s not a big deal in the long run. And your description on why they wouldn’t is more apt in regards to the character of them in my head.

 

No frills, no celebrations or requests for legitimacy, just the Emperors bloody work. Amen.

 

And you guys aren’t gonna step on my toes. I love discussing 40k and this creative process. I love having people come in and helping me sharpen this “idea” into something that is ultimately better for it in the end. It’s this stage of creation that is the most fun. Every one of your contributions, even GHY’s :), is welcome and appreciated. What good would our ideas be if they could not stand up to respectful, respected, and honest discussions.

 

I appreciate all of this brothers. Tonight I’ll type of a summery of all discussed and try to dial in the official points in preparation for a proper IA.

[Brother Lunkhead]

It'd be better if your lads simply didn't ever get the chance to take part in the Feast of Blades - the enemies of humanity hardly stop for special occasions too, after all.

 

Heck, why not go further? The Crimson Fists (DIY) could have always been against such flagrant displays of grandeur, arguing the real champions of Dorn are the ones who are out there and fighting, all day every day, not the ones taking part in fancy tournaments. The Feast of Blades is a grand ideal, and maybe once all the heretics, aliens and mutants are dead, the Crimson Fists (DIY) will think of attending. Until then, the Crusade beckons.

 

Dented armour and determination, fighting to the bitter end against enemies on all sides - that's a real crusading Crimson Fist (DIY), not some polished, preening showpiece duellist in a hall somewhere. 

 

I think that sums it up quite well

 

 

Primarch G, while almost singlehandedly putting the Imperium back together after a great tragic civil war, and with the help of a uber-brilliant magos of the Adeptus Mechanicum sets about developing the next phase of Astartes. They will be stronger, faster, tougher in every aspect, plus they will have cool new armor, bolt rifles, and hover tanks. Tragically, he is killed by Daemon Prince Brother F. Ten thousand years later, on the cusp of a new galaxy-wide war, Primarch G is miraculously resurrected and along with Archmagos C, who is equally miraculously still alive and has been working on this project all along, execute their plans and save the Imperium once again.

 

...... but that would be too ridiculous, right

...That's probably the single most divisive piece of lore in the last decade or so, which makes that an interesting choice to make your point with, brother.

 

….. and that's why I chose it Brother It IS divisive, and it is IMO a tad on the weak side, but for our purposes here, it's canon, and that makes it a measurable president.

Like them or not, the lore as set down by GW is the most legitimate measuring stick we have. Now, that certainly doesn't mean other ideas are not good (or even better) and legitimate. It just means they aren't canon, and ultimately that means...… well, I think that great philosopher, The Dude put it best when he said, "yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion man."

 

 

 

Regardless, as a proud Liberite, I have no problem with helping my brothers and sisters in words set the bar for their lore at "Better-written than GW's own stuff", as lofty a goal as that might be.  

 

"Better-written than GW's own stuff"..... sometimes that can almost be a necessity Personally, I'm satisfied if I can help my fraters and sorors connect the logic threads in their narratives and throw out an occasional idea that gets there imagination wheels turning.

 

Not harsh at all Brother! It’s been a busy time at work and I was honestly rushing to get a reply Whilst waiting for a meeting to be over lol.

 

But I think you have the right of it. One of the reasons I liked the feast of blades was to keep the contention current between official and diy factions. But that’s not a big deal in the long run. And your description on why they wouldn’t is more apt in regards to the character of them in my head.

 

No frills, no celebrations or requests for legitimacy, just the Emperors bloody work. Amen.

 

And you guys aren’t gonna step on my toes. I love discussing 40k and this creative process. I love having people come in and helping me sharpen this “idea” into something that is ultimately better for it in the end. It’s this stage of creation that is the most fun. Every one of your contributions, even GHY’s , is welcome and appreciated. What good would our ideas be if they could not stand up to respectful, respected, and honest discussions.

 

I appreciate all of this brothers. Tonight I’ll type of a summery of all discussed and try to dial in the official points in preparation for a proper IA.

 

Well said. Looking forward to your summary.