Flamers and Melta... underwhelming?

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

So I'm excited for the supplement, but in pretty much every list I write I find myself struggling to actually take any any flamer/multie melta weaponry beyond a multi melta on my land raider.
I playing primarily classic marines, and I love the idea fo things like multie melta attack bikes, twin h.flamer speeders and even multie melta devestator squads but compared to other options, and the sheer luck/effort into delivery in comparison, melta and flamer weapon just seem to not be that great?

Like please prove me wrong/suggest ways to work into a list that won't just get casually blown apart before it can do anything (My poor, poor land speeders).

[Mainely Wargamming]

Well, 

 

If you are playing as Salamanders, get ready for Aggressor spam.  Because now you are shooting 2d6 auto-hitting, 4d6 if they haven't moved, and if you pop both strats, and are in tactical discipline (?) they become range 12", you get max hits, and then you pick a single weapon, and any wound rolls of 4+ do an automatic mortal wound in conjuction with other damage.  So, if you are keeping track:

 

4d6 max = 24 hits at 12", PER Aggressor.  They can go up to 5, but lets stick with 3.  Thats 24x3 = 72 Auto hits.  Now roughly half of  one of those weapons should be 4+.  So that's already 6 mortal wounds.  Let's just say they are capable of wiping out anything they can get close to, and then they charge and have powerfist attacks.  

 

No, flamers just got a lot better :)

[CCE1981]

Where are you getting range 12” flamers?

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Well, 

 

If you are playing as Salamanders, get ready for Aggressor spam.  Because now you are shooting 2d6 auto-hitting, 4d6 if they haven't moved, and if you pop both strats, and are in tactical discipline (?) they become range 12", you get max hits, and then you pick a single weapon, and any wound rolls of 4+ do an automatic mortal wound in conjuction with other damage.  So, if you are keeping track:

 

4d6 max = 24 hits at 12", PER Aggressor.  They can go up to 5, but lets stick with 3.  Thats 24x3 = 72 Auto hits.  Now roughly half of  one of those weapons should be 4+.  So that's already 6 mortal wounds.  Let's just say they are capable of wiping out anything they can get close to, and then they charge and have powerfist attacks.  

 

No, flamers just got a lot better

Outside of Aggressors :P It's the thing that annoys me with most of the reviews of the supplement, most of them don't really discuss anything beyond aggressors :P.

Pretty sure Salamander ones are only 8" range.

 

[SirVulkan]

Invictors have a 12 inch range.    Right now Aggressors are the way to go but Invictors are really good too.  Speeders are not bad either, just easy to kill.  Yes we are all awaiting some more melta weapons on primaris.  Dev's with multi melta in a pod with Vulkan are no joke.  They just die so easy so you need to place them behind something and use Self Sacrifice.

 

You could go successors and get the 11" flamers but honestly ignoring ap -1 is very underrated.  Really if I could have one wish it would be that melta weapons cost was dropped a bit in Chapter Approved but I dont see it happening.  

 

No other chapter can dish out as many wounds as our flamer aggressors.   Salamanders are not a face roll army.  You need to be good in the movement phase to steer this army.  Its not an auto win like IH was.  Charge forward, use Self Sacrifice and all your defense buffs.  If we had easy delivery options our army would be the face roll army and I am glad that isn't the case.

[L30n1d4s]

2 squads of Company Veterans (all with Stomeshields and combi-meltas), a Librarian, Vulkan, and Bray'arth Ashmantle, all riding in a Stormraven, can make for a pretty mobile and potent battle group, especially once the Tactical Doctrine is activated.

[SallyForth]

Combi flamers

Heavy flamers

Meltaguns

Multimeltas

 

I mean if you physically don’t own any models with flamers, then it’s kind of hard to take them. But the thing I always hear is stern guard with combi flamers, and devastators with meltas and the sarge a combi flamer. I’m a primaris player, and so I feel the traditional marine flamer options ARE lackluster but there are definitely some badass units that carry flamers.

 

As for primaris there are the aggressors (nine models is hardly spam in my eyes?) and the invictor war suit.

 

Or, you can just keep playing salamanders how you’ve been playing them, and skip the flamers. They have a lot durability strats and the flat +1 to wound strat is useful no matter what the unit.

 

Personally I have been using my primaris aggressors as flamers now, and the intercessors as far more aggressive frontline troops to get them into melee.

[CCE1981]

I think Salamanders will be better with the loyal 32 or 64. The Stratagems are what makes Salamanders not their Doctrine bonus.

[AnImA8]

Let’s also not discount the hand flamer on the Intercessors sergeants btw. It’s not an assault weapon so isn’t perfectly optimized for our Tactical Doctrine perk, but the +1 to wound makes it practically a normal flamer in most cases, AND it can net you some mortal wounds in combat and/or in overwatch by the Fires of Battle. Getting that much use out of a 1 pt upgrade is a STEAL.

 

I think that’s the main thing people need to consider: Aggressors may be the super unit that everyone sees dishing out the damage, but every single unit that has a flamer of some kind should make the enemy pause. You’ve only got one or two dudes left in the squad, but is it worth him assaulting into your flamer that can put up 3 mortal wounds for 2 cp? He knows you’ve got some long ranged firepower that he really wants to clear right now, but you’ve got a pair of invictors and a drop pod full of Sternguard in his face right now, what does he do? Just the threat of our flamer and melta weapons should elicit a response from our opponents.

Edited November 1, 2019 by AnImA8

[PiñaColada]

The hand flamer is not anywhere near a steal IMO. It's at the most a sidegrade IMO but I see it as a fun & fluffy wargear option. Had the handflamer been exchanging the bolt pistol it would've been fantastic, but you take it instead of the bolt rifle which means that the sergeant often forgoes his own shooting in the shooting phase. If you're in close range (or CC) he can however fire both the handflamer and the bolt pistol which is something I guess.

[SallyForth]

Yeah the hand flamer is awful. I’d much rather have an assault bolter.

[SirVulkan]

I used the hand flamer in my last game.  With the right support its pretty good.  I pair it with a unit of vet intercessors using auto bolt rifles hopping out of an impulsor.  They shoot 1 unit then charge another usually.  The sgt also has a TH.  They become a pretty nice all around unit to hold a middle objective.  I was pretty happy with that 106 pt unit. 

[SallyForth]

I’ve had a lot of fun with veteran intercessors. I use 2 five man squads, advancing with assault bolters and the sergeant with a thunder hammer.

 

Popping the sigil of vulkan, and on the charge, that’s 20 normal hits and 6 thunder hammer hits, rerolling all hits thanks to the chaplain and +1 to wound with Adrax. I used Gene Wrought Might to give all the sixes auto hit and auto wound, then getting my Forged in Battle reroll.

[AnImA8]

Are the veteran Intercessors worth the CP’s though? I think about taking them all the time, but I often take extra Relics and starting the game down that many CP just doesn’t sound appealing to me...

[SallyForth]

I take a brigade and it’s been worth using it on 2 of my five 5 man squads to follow Adrax and the aggressors up the board. They provide ranged S4 firepower I no longer have due to using flame gauntlets, and if somehow everything important dies I still have a ton of attacks, a thunder hammer, and primaris bodies advancing up the field.

 

I like having lots of threatening units for my opponent to deal with. Focus on the aggressors, the veteran intercessors are right beside them. Focus on them, and the flamers are suddenly in range.

 

The great thing about our codex now, is we have actual cool things to spend cp on instead just of counter assault, auspex scan and rerolls.

Edited November 2, 2019 by SallyForth

[SallyForth]

Also they are more survivable than they seem, when you’re protecting them with a Self Sacrificing unit advancing with the army. They can also be used for self sacrifice if the first unit gets shot up.

[SirVulkan]

Yep I agree. Intercessors with TH are awesome for salamanders.  I like infiltrators and incursors as well for board control.  I just wish Infiltrators were 1 or 2 points cheaper.  Popping smoke is great though.

 

I am going to try TH SS termies in my next list and either DS them or run them up mid as my Self sacrifice unit.  Then just hope I make a lot of 3++ 6+++ saves lol.

[Xisor]

I've been musing on this, as I've still got a mostly 7th-Ed configured army in a box here.

 

Accordingly, I'm very pleased to read SallyForth's words on the matter - sounds v. close to what I'm imagining!

 

Essentially, two battalions.

3*5 Tacticals with melta+combi-melta

3*5 Tacticals with flamer+combi-flamer

 

I imagine HQs would easily go Techmarine+Chaplain+Lieutenant+Lieutenant for cheapness and some utility, though a Captain & Librarian wouldn't be out of place.

 

Add in some extra bodies, or company veterans or some such for bulking out, then throw this lot in some transports to shift about the place, and suddenly you've got plenty of bodies, plenty of CPs, but nothing so immediately threatening that your opponent'll gun for.

 

---

 

It brings in an pleasant if small number of flamers and meltas and CPs, but without being Death Stars for target priority. Pop them in some transports and whatever else you have in your army will have a lot more free reign.

 

Like a loyal 32, but with more fire and perhaps less efficient!

 

Thematic though.

 

---

 

Finally: I'm not actually terribly put out by the idea the Supplement doesn't encourage lots of flamers/meltas. Quite the reverse, actually: I'm happy that it doesn't. It rewards (indeed: encourages) judicious (err, overwhelming) use of them in specific situations, but still means that Devastator Squads and Tactical Squads and Infiltrators and whatnot have a sensible presence in Salamanders armies.

 

Conceptually, I'm more thrilled by the re-rolls, the bonus vs -1 rend. The re-rolls essentially encourage MSU- and character-units, which feels very Salamander-y. 

 

Add in a world where Imperial Soup is a thing, and a Salamanders detachment working in concert with AdMech/Sisters/Militarum forces sounds really very pleasing.

 

Far more thematic than "everyone who can has a flamer" - leave that to the Fire Lords and Fire Angels and the Angels of Fire.

 

The Salamanders are self-reliance and an outrageously un-Imperial approach to the meat-grinder of war.

 

Well, to my eyes, at least.

[SallyForth]

I agree, the salamanders are a unique yet codex compliant chapter that views the entire concept of Adeptes Astartes/regular imperial citizen differently than any other army in the game. They actually care about civilians and view their role in the Imperium as protectors of INDIVIDUAL people, not just the Imperium as an abstract. Thats cool to me, almost makes them straight up good guys in my eyes.

 

Now I never used flamers before now. I’ve played salamanders since I started 2.5 years ago with 8th, but I always built my army around the reroll tactic. Small units, small volume but high damage weapons, heavy weapons that can move and shoot more effectively....

 

Now with the codex, everything that made that a viable salamanders strategy is still true, with the added incentives to use flamethrowers. You can totally ignore the flamer rules in our supplement and still have a really badass, tough salamanders army just like before.

[Aothaine]

I used the hand flamer in my last game.  With the right support its pretty good.  I pair it with a unit of vet intercessors using auto bolt rifles hopping out of an impulsor.  They shoot 1 unit then charge another usually.  The sgt also has a TH.  They become a pretty nice all around unit to hold a middle objective.  I was pretty happy with that 106 pt unit. 

 

Just want to make sure you're not charging the turn you disembark from your Impulsor if you disembark after it moves. 

Edited November 5, 2019 by Aothaine

[SirVulkan]

Nope not charging. I'll dump adrax out for the buffs the other unit will jump out turn 2. Turn 2 is the magic turn for us.

[MegaVolt87]

Hm, maybe sallies with razorback MSU units could be something now for oldmarines. 

[SirVulkan]

Rhino's and razorbacks die way too easy and are hampered by not having the fly key word.  I think for Sallies you are better off using a pod.  The Impulsor on the other hand is a really great transport being super durable and able to fly over buildings.  Not to mention it is faster and has the assault rule.  If the rumors for the next Psychic awakening are true and you can give a chaplain another litany and cast another litany a turn, I may do hellblasters and another Impuslor in my list.  That +1 to hit is key for them.  

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

So this could be necromancy, however I am wondering if anyone is looking at utilising more flamers/Meltas now we have to cycle out of devastator doctrine?

[SallyForth]

Nine flame aggressors have been the core of my army since the supplement dropped. Turn four whatever is left of that core in locked in melee and in the assault doc anyway. The doctrine change has zero impact on my army.