gmaleron Posted November 2, 2019 Share Posted November 2, 2019 Hey guys, due to a large influx of Raven Guard at my store I'm changing things up a little bit and going to go with Raptors instead. Now naturally this means I want to use Lias Issodon however I do have some questions regarding on how to use him: -Is his master of Ambush ability a special rule or is it his particular warlord trait? -Looking at running him in a large Phalanx of Devastator Centurions, however if I am master of ambushing the Centurions is there a way I can do it to make sure he actually gets up the table in a timely manner to support them? I know the infiltrate stratagem is one. Bottom line really people who use him I would really love to hear the tactics and strategies that they have found successful with him, appreciate the feedback guys! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359635-how-to-use-lias-issodon/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brom MKIV Posted November 2, 2019 Share Posted November 2, 2019 I was just brewing with Issodon. I believe his MoA has been changed to the same trait as the RG version. Same name newer printing. Anyway I haven't played issodon since 6th but If I were to I'd probably use his gun to evaporate enemy eliminators and similar. I can't think of a better relic gun for digging multi-wound units out. Theres some friction with that purpose and getting him up close obviously, where his raptor sword isn't well suited to be. But if you are dead set on getting those CM rerolls you could always shadowstep him when the timing is right. So that gives you quite a bit of flexibility- MoA him and cents or another unit. Camp lias and sfts the cents then shadowstep lias to within proximity. Lastly hes very fast on foot so he has some natural redeployment ability to a limited degree. Ayway just theory on my part this edition. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359635-how-to-use-lias-issodon/#findComment-5418745 Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmaleron Posted November 2, 2019 Author Share Posted November 2, 2019 I was just brewing with Issodon. I believe his MoA has been changed to the same trait as the RG version. Same name newer printing Looking through the FW recent FAQ it has no mention of him or his MoA rule being updated to reflect the new Raven Guard one sadly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359635-how-to-use-lias-issodon/#findComment-5418749 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brom MKIV Posted November 2, 2019 Share Posted November 2, 2019 Hmm that is true. However the rule is the same name so following precedence from previous instances it should following the most recent. Also note that games-workshop has updated theirs to reflect this: http://games-workshop.ru/wh40k8ed/factions/space-marines/Lias-Issodon Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359635-how-to-use-lias-issodon/#findComment-5418758 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted November 2, 2019 Share Posted November 2, 2019 There's no correlation between rules appearing on a datasheet and a given warlord trait. Some random wiki thinking there is doesn't mean anything Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359635-how-to-use-lias-issodon/#findComment-5418953 Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmaleron Posted November 2, 2019 Author Share Posted November 2, 2019 There's no correlation between rules appearing on a datasheet and a given warlord trait. Some random wiki thinking there is doesn't mean anything So does this mean I could give Lias Issodon the master of Ambush warlord trait? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359635-how-to-use-lias-issodon/#findComment-5419009 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiroitchi Posted November 2, 2019 Share Posted November 2, 2019 Given that it is a possibility his ability is updated, it makes him viable now since he can take any Raptor Infantry unit with him rather than just any non Primaris, Non Centurion, non terminator unit with him. Sounds like it’ll be fun using him again. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359635-how-to-use-lias-issodon/#findComment-5419015 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brom MKIV Posted November 2, 2019 Share Posted November 2, 2019 There's no correlation between rules appearing on a datasheet and a given warlord trait. Some random wiki thinking there is doesn't mean anything Fair enough I forgot his rule isn't a warlord trait but rather an ability. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359635-how-to-use-lias-issodon/#findComment-5419025 Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmaleron Posted November 3, 2019 Author Share Posted November 3, 2019 Can you issue any warlord trait to Lias Issodon then? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359635-how-to-use-lias-issodon/#findComment-5419118 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted November 3, 2019 Share Posted November 3, 2019 You cant modify a Special Characters datasheet Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359635-how-to-use-lias-issodon/#findComment-5419123 Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmaleron Posted November 3, 2019 Author Share Posted November 3, 2019 You cant modify a Special Characters datasheetBut Master of Ambush isnt a warlord trait, its his special ability. Does this mean he cant take a warlord trait at all? Seems somewhat like an oversight considering all other special characters have a warlord trait built-in if you select them as a warlord Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359635-how-to-use-lias-issodon/#findComment-5419124 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted November 3, 2019 Share Posted November 3, 2019 You can give him any warlord trait from the raven guard supplement or the codex. However, he has some anti-synergy with the trait MoA since that requires your units to be on the table. You'd be choosing between his ability and warlord trait for deployment options. Imo the best options for him are swift and deadly and feigned flight. Unfortunately you can't combine them with master of the trifold path as he's a named character, but both leverage his aura of advance and charge. You can make a lot of interesting melee raptor builds around him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359635-how-to-use-lias-issodon/#findComment-5419245 Share on other sites More sharing options...
faithonwings Posted November 3, 2019 Share Posted November 3, 2019 Unfortunatly, since his detasheet isn't updated you have to play him with the rules he has got, outdated and all. This also means IMO that his chapter master abillity gives rerolls to failed his rather than rerolls to hit. I am unsure about how to play his master of ambush abillity at the moment. I would asume that since the one is a warlord trait and the other an abillity that the change has no effect, and this is how I would play it. But... GW has a habbit of making weird decisions about these kind of things. When the Tau codex came out a lot of battlesuits lost the acces to the stimulant injector, a 5 point upgrade that gave you'r model a 6+++ that was in the index. There was a stratagem in the new codex with the same name but not an upgrade, so you would think you would have acces to this ugrade via the index right?? After all the one was an upgrade, the other a stratagem. Wrong, GW put it in an FAQ that the stratagem in the new book replaced the upgrade option in the index. In other words, if a FAQ hits, don't be 100% they won't replace the abillity that illias has with the codex version (giving him a fixed warlord trait and loosing out on an abillity would be an excuse for a massive points drop though) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359635-how-to-use-lias-issodon/#findComment-5419274 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted November 3, 2019 Share Posted November 3, 2019 The only outdated rule is his chapter master aura. And yes, gw might change it in a faq, but until it is, there's absolutely no cause to exclude the ability for the trait. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359635-how-to-use-lias-issodon/#findComment-5419290 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nusquam Posted November 3, 2019 Share Posted November 3, 2019 Its two different rules that are also two different types. Ones a Warlord Trait and the other is just a static ability. Rules dont superceded each other on name alone. They dont superceded each other normally. A couple examples of precidence The knights thermal cannon had to be errata'd to be d6 in the adtech book back in the day. Even the BT characters got rolled back to index versions when they got a pdf alongside the 2019 marine dex. So Lias has the worse CM aura but can take a warlord trait. His version of Ambush is good mechanically but limited to only three good units like devs, sternguard, and chapter veterans to drop down and shoot things. Hes basically a drop pod in that they all count as one drop but then also have to drop together. Back in the day when drop pods were awful he was much better. Now it's just a way to save CP or a few points for a T2 delivery. If he gets his CM aura updated it will be nice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359635-how-to-use-lias-issodon/#findComment-5419315 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted November 3, 2019 Share Posted November 3, 2019 His rules have certainly fluctuated as they changed reserves over the years. I feel like a melee bomb would be pretty interesting with him in the center though; his aura and hungry for battle creates a 7" charge, with ravens blade giving full rerolls. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359635-how-to-use-lias-issodon/#findComment-5419333 Share on other sites More sharing options...
faithonwings Posted November 3, 2019 Share Posted November 3, 2019 Its two different rules that are also two different types. Ones a Warlord Trait and the other is just a static ability. Rules dont superceded each other on name alone. They dont superceded each other normally. A couple examples of precidence The knights thermal cannon had to be errata'd to be d6 in the adtech book back in the day. Even the BT characters got rolled back to index versions when they got a pdf alongside the 2019 marine dex. So Lias has the worse CM aura but can take a warlord trait. His version of Ambush is good mechanically but limited to only three good units like devs, sternguard, and chapter veterans to drop down and shoot things. Hes basically a drop pod in that they all count as one drop but then also have to drop together. Back in the day when drop pods were awful he was much better. Now it's just a way to save CP or a few points for a T2 delivery. If he gets his CM aura updated it will be nice. I agree with all you say. For the moment I think this is the way to play him correctly. All I'm saying is that when it comes to a FAQ the decision could swing either way. GW doesn't have the reputation of always following the most logical (by my standards that is) of choises. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359635-how-to-use-lias-issodon/#findComment-5419436 Share on other sites More sharing options...
superwill Posted November 4, 2019 Share Posted November 4, 2019 For me, there’s only one thing that makes him unique and possibly worth it. There are better options for a beatstick, there are better shooting options, there are better chapter master aura givers, and they’d all cost well under 195. Even the drop pod thing - pods really aren’t that expensive now, they can fit 2 units anyway, they arrive turn one and best of all they don’t count towards your reserve limit. Or just SftS them if you need. The only possible reason he would be worth it IMO is for the +1” charge in a melee heavy army. If combined with Hungry for Battle it takes the charge chance from something like 42% for 8” (15/36) to 58% for 7” (21/36). That’s a pretty nifty little bonus, especially if you add rerolls. With enough units charging / dice rolled, that extra 16% (more with rerolls) could make the difference for a couple of units which can potentially be the difference of wiping an enemy unit or two out of deepstrike. I can’t really imagine why anyone would take him if they’re not planning on charging. Maybe some real niche cases but overall I’d just use SftS or a pod, and a better CM. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359635-how-to-use-lias-issodon/#findComment-5419590 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorNese Posted November 4, 2019 Share Posted November 4, 2019 With our supplement handing out other deep strike/deployment solutions, and Shrike getting a lot better, I think Issodon isn't worth it any more outside of certain Issobomb/oldmarine lists. Issodon's deep strike ability, like oldmarine Shrike's charge reroll bubble, is limited to oldmarines. If you don't need it, it is hard to justify him costing almost 200p. His shooting is quite unique and generally useful, but begins to lose its uniqueness with all the sniper options in the supplements. If he could target characters, it might begin to be actually good again, but as it is, I'd even choose RG rules (non-successor) just to get Shrike instead of Issodon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359635-how-to-use-lias-issodon/#findComment-5419719 Share on other sites More sharing options...
casb1965 Posted November 4, 2019 Share Posted November 4, 2019 I think Issadon is useable but very situational. The ability to keep back units until after deployment is complete can hamper your opponent's deployment and also allow you to adjust your deployment to compensate for unexpected deployments by your opponent. The advantage is those 3 units do not have to be deployed alongside each other nor do they have to be deployed in the enemies deployment zone. Dropping a unit of las devastators in LOS of your opponents Whirlwinds can be very useful. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359635-how-to-use-lias-issodon/#findComment-5419866 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorNese Posted November 4, 2019 Share Posted November 4, 2019 Yes, they don't have to deploy next to each other. I've used that a few times, splitting up the Issobomb to reinforce certain areas instead of just putting a blob of guns somewhere in the middle. But holding back 3 units + HQ until turn 2-3 might be an issue, since that racks up to a significant amount of points not contributing anything until then, and giving the opponent 1 or 2 movement phases to bring units into position to block those units. And all 3+1 have to be deployed at the same time - no holding back some units until it makes more sense, or the field is cleared for them to land. Though some of my judgement may come from my current army list approach, using quite a bit of Concealed Deployment, MoA and fast units to be in the midfield turn 1. Keeping back such an amount of units instead of creating a usable concentration of force would weaken the whole list. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359635-how-to-use-lias-issodon/#findComment-5419881 Share on other sites More sharing options...
casb1965 Posted November 4, 2019 Share Posted November 4, 2019 You don't have to wait until turn 2 though, you can bring them all in at the end of your movement phase on turn 1. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359635-how-to-use-lias-issodon/#findComment-5419922 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorNese Posted November 4, 2019 Share Posted November 4, 2019 You don't have to wait until turn 2 though, you can bring them all in at the end of your movement phase on turn 1. That has not been the case for quite a long time. Last year April's FAQ already had the beta rule of not being able to set up deep strikers outside of your deployment zone turn 1. The April 2019 FAQ had the finalized rule quoted below, that entirely forbids setting reserves up turn 1. Furthermore, in matched play games, units that are not placed on the battlefield during deployment in order to arrive on the battle mid-game as reinforcements cannot arrive on the battlefield during the first battle round. So the point remains - 3+1 units missing until turn 2. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359635-how-to-use-lias-issodon/#findComment-5419930 Share on other sites More sharing options...
casb1965 Posted November 4, 2019 Share Posted November 4, 2019 We've always played it at our club that if any character has a specific written rule it out trumps general rules and his rule reads "at the end of any of your movement phases" so turn 1 arrivals. If it read "at the end of your movement phase" we'd have played it as turn 2 onwards. Looks like we've interpreted it wrong. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359635-how-to-use-lias-issodon/#findComment-5419946 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorNese Posted November 4, 2019 Share Posted November 4, 2019 The first FAQ already explains in length that exactly that (turn 1 DS) is a massive problem and has to be prevented. Since Tactical Reserves is purely for matched play (which everyone uses anyway), there is no need to update every single unit entry, as it does trump unit rules unless explicitly stated. There's a reason that the new Drop Pod rules explicitly disable Tactical Reserves for that unit (and its passengers) - that makes it the only turn 1 DS unit in our entire army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359635-how-to-use-lias-issodon/#findComment-5419954 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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