LoS ignoring weapons

[Brom MKIV]

I'm interested in your input and experiences regarding Los ignoring weaponry.

 

Is oolos ( out of line of sight shooting) healthy for the game?

 

Should there be a limited quantity?

 

Should additional penalties apply?

 

Lastly on a related note, what format do you play? Is it ITC, ETC, strictly rule book or other?

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

I think OOLOS has a direct correlation to ITC "Magic Boxes" and that's why its so essential. That being said I mostly only play Maelstrom, so it hardly matters. We have played a fair amount of games of Maelstrom using ITC terrain rules for magic boxes, and I can see the OOLOS was very powerful.

[MajorNese]

Should there be a limited quantity?

I'd say, for most armies there is a limited quality instead of quantity, and for many there is both, with IG being the one counter example (but artillery is their thing, so that's okay).

 

The Eliminators should be the best example - there is a huge difference between LoS and non-LoS ammo in damage potential. TFC and Whirlwind are hardly as destructive as their direct-firing brethren.

 

And AdMech's Skorpius paints the same picture - the non-LoS gun is random and worse in almost every aspect, but people use it when playing ITC. If not playing ITC, then everyone goes for the direct-firing version because it is simply better, and the chassis is fast enough to get LoS.

[duz_]

Given the general nature of this question I'm going to move it to the Amicus

[casb1965]

I love giving my GK dreadnought Astral Aim and having him snipe of opponents at will whilst hidden from sight.

[Dark Shepherd]

A minus to hit would be fair/good IMO

[Brom MKIV]

We have been using ITC terrain rules since early on although no magic boxes (fully enclosed buildings that is).

But now I'm starting to question the terrain rules. I like that the ground/first floor can enable assaults without overwatch and can, theoretically protect units. However it also enables non interactive builds, more so now with the latest releases. 

 

So I've been stewing on what would be a fair middle ground. 

 

Speaking from the ITC terrain standpoint, I feel like oolos weapons are not costed for those house rules by GW. They get the benefit of cover, immunity to return fire and can target enemy units anywhere in range.  This creates a situation where the best answer is one of the same type. Similar to the mental misstep days of MTG if anyone remembers that. Any time the best answer is the same thing I feel thats a sign something isn't right.

 

Anyway maybe they should have the same restrictions as any other unit while inside the ground floor.. meaning these weapons can fire into but not out of grond floor ruins. 

[Slasher956]

OoLoS weapons... how do you fire a projectile through a roof?  (edit - from inside the building!)

 

If people like ITC are going to house rule not drawing LoS through ground floor terrain then they can do the job properly and house rule roofs!

[Gederas]

OoLoS weapons... how do you fire a projectile through a roof?

 

If people like ITC are going to house rule not drawing LoS through ground floor terrain then they can do the job properly and house rule roofs!

I dunno, you tell me?

 

That being said, I'd like my Artillery guns to work as artillery guns thank you very much. Indirect fire is always something useful

[Slasher956]

 

I dunno, you tell me?

 

 

hate to be inside the building when you fire that!... :p

[MARK0SIAN]

A minus to hit would be fair/good IMO

I Think the fact that (as someone already mentioned) the indirect fire mode or weapon is noticeably worse than direct fire weapons in terms of damage potential is penalty enough.

 

That’s their downside and their penalty for being able to target units they can’t see. I don’t think they really warrant anything else on top of that, especially for armies with middling to poor BS.

[Dark Shepherd]

 

A minus to hit would be fair/good IMO

I Think the fact that (as someone already mentioned) the indirect fire mode or weapon is noticeably worse than direct fire weapons in terms of damage potential is penalty enough.

 

That’s their downside and their penalty for being able to target units they can’t see. I don’t think they really warrant anything else on top of that, especially for armies with middling to poor BS.

For some Id agree but guard have some heavy duty stuff especially when buffed

[Exilyth]

Guard are masters of the arty parking lot - trying to beat them at their own game by castling up is a mistake.

 

What guard don't like is being tied up in meelee (except catachans & ogryns).

Going mobile and being in their face, (ab-)using their infantry screens to 'hide' in meelee and then going for the vehicles behind.

 

 

Tactics aside & back to topic:

Playing mostly maelstrom & CA missions w/o house rules for terrain. I feel that the current terrain rules put a huge focus on ruins, walls, buildings & similar solid things and less on less dense area & linear terrain (e.g. trenches, woods, hedges, bushes, fences and scatter like boxes & barrels which does not fully obstruct infantry hiding behind).

In LoS or not in LoS is a rather binary thing. While being on terrain gives cover, many weapons and/or <subfactions> just ignore cover, making terrain which does not completely block LoS less useful. And you need hard cover this edition to not get shot off the table T1 by some lists.

 

Now the urban environment rules from CA go in a completely different direction, making terrain much more important. While they do give uses to partially LoS blocking terrain, the overall reduction in damage and the constant LoS coverage checks make games using theese rules go much slower than normal 40k.

 

It would be nice if we had sensible terrain rules which are some middle ground between the extremes: making (partial LoS) terrain more usefull without slowing down the game.

 

 

As for LoS vs. ooLoS shooting:

Magic boxes are one thing, but what about all the conveniently-larger-than-knight sized terrain? And what's the right amount of terrain? How much scatter should there be in the 'streets'?

This is all going back to the age old 'striking a balance between shooty armies like planet bowling ball and meelee armies like city fights'.

ooLoS weapons benefit from being shooty and prefering lots of terrain.

 

 

From what I've seen, NOVA has an interesting terrain layout: bunch of abstract 'L' shapes - quite balanced arena style of games.

Unfortunably tournament terrain layouts are practical but do not look very thematic.

[Tyriks]

The only problem I see with weapons that ignore LoS is uneven access. Some armies have no options or not very good ones, some armies have tons of strong stuff.

[ERJAK]

The ITC being significant to oolos guns at all is frankly only due to the majority of tables having terrible stupid terrain on them.

 

People go gaga over stuff like the necromunda terrain or those rusty catwalks and ruins that came out with that one killteam knockoff, but all of those pieces, along with GW ruins are basically useless in 8th edition.

 

If you want terrain to actually be functional it needs to have a large base where units can take cover and a significant portion that blocks LoS. Most GW terrain has crap for base area and blocks LoS as well as a colander blocks water.

 

Stop building your terrain to be pretty and start building it to be functional and the need for ITC goes away.

[GrinNfool]

The ITC being significant to oolos guns at all is frankly only due to the majority of tables having terrible stupid terrain on them.

 

People go gaga over stuff like the necromunda terrain or those rusty catwalks and ruins that came out with that one killteam knockoff, but all of those pieces, along with GW ruins are basically useless in 8th edition.

 

If you want terrain to actually be functional it needs to have a large base where units can take cover and a significant portion that blocks LoS. Most GW terrain has crap for base area and blocks LoS as well as a colander blocks water.

 

Stop building your terrain to be pretty and start building it to be functional and the need for ITC goes away.

Agree almost completely... just I think magic boxes shouldn't be a thing, if ITC can house rule the LoS blocking 1st floor they can also get rid of the obnoxious side effect of their house rule by not allowing indirect weapons to shoot out of magic boxes, as they would litterally be lobbing mortars into the ceiling above them killing themselves.

[duz_]

OK enough discussion on ITC magic boxes.

 

Their discussing their merits isn't part of the conversation.