Thoughts on Shrike and base remodeling?

[Gederas]

As an argument to support that you are NOT modelling for advantage, I would like to look at the problem the other way around.

 

A mate of mine has converted the below model as a techmarine gunner :

 

As everyone can see, the model is raised significantly higher by the cork piece, making it more difficult to hide from LoS. Actually, his entire army is built with this type of base, so it is higher than "standard" primaris models. Can he claim to having a disadvantage ?

No, because since it's higher, they can see over walls easier. So any disadvantage he gains is counteracted by the advantage of being able to get LoS for shooting/psykers/abilities easier.

 

That actually caused an argument at my old shop because no one ever saw anyone do that before me :lol:

[duz_]

I think the question to them should be simpler than that

 

Something like:

 

Hi GW

 

I've been told no putting Shrike on his scenic base I am gaining some kind of advantage and cheating. Is modifying scenic bases cheating?

 

Or even

 

Am I allowed to modify scenic bases

[Ciler]

No, because since it's higher, they can see over walls easier. So any disadvantage he gains is counteracted by the advantage of being able to get LoS for shooting/psykers/abilities easier.

 

That actually caused an argument at my old shop because no one ever saw anyone do that before me

But then by the same token, making Shrike lower has the same upsides and downsides.

[Claws and Effect]

The only time it is modeling for advantage is in a tournament setting.

 

And the reason for that is it is the only time you will potentially see more than 1 instance of the same character.

 

If one version of Shrike can break LOS behind a piece of terrain but another cannot break LOS behind the same piece, then the version that can has an unfair advantage.

 

In a single game where there can only be 1 Shrike it doesn't matter in the slightest.

[toaae]

Guys, it isn't even an ITC rule or anything. It's a concept, loosely-defined, that has been in place in the community psyche to prevent people from doing things like making their units all lie prone, or increasing the size of a grots base to 40mm for board control, or the like. Almost any change can be argued as "modelling for advantage", but it's up to reasonable players to know the difference between deliberately game-changing and just looking cool. 

 

In my experience, most TOs ask for pictures of major conversions to be sent in ahead of time to be approved, and the most common solution is to either use a "stand in" for when the exact size is important to check, or just erring on the side of the opposing player on close calls.

As for Shrike, I'm going to go with the answer I usually go with on conversions: most people won't care, and those that do are probably just being obtuse for the sake of argument. The easiest way to play without arguing is to just say that if your Shrike is behind cover that wouldn't hide his regular, based self, your opponent can have LoS. Badda-boom, done. Enjoy the cool model.

(besides, who honestly thinks GW actually balanced his points and abilities around the height of the model?)

[Bryan Blaire]

 

No, because since it's higher, they can see over walls easier. So any disadvantage he gains is counteracted by the advantage of being able to get LoS for shooting/psykers/abilities easier. That actually caused an argument at my old shop because no one ever saw anyone do that before me :lol:

But then by the same token, making Shrike lower has the same upsides and downsides.

Exactly. If you can apply one, then you can apply the converse - there's no universal "advantages" only gained. Even the prone models (and there have been some, Pathfinder Rail Rifle sniper comes to mind), in a TLoS situation, have inherent disadvantages - namely that they are almost never going to have Line of Sight to shoot something.

 

All of this is down to the goofiness inherent in continuing to use True Line of Sight in an almost completely abstracted game - there has been so much removal of the more simulation aspect of the game (vehicle armor facings, templates, cover saves based on interposing units, etc.), that keeping the simulationist TLoS is silly and causes goofy arguments like this.

[Lexington]

I’m always surprised that ITC and other tournament rulesets don’t have a better LoS system in place to counteract 8th’s lazy nonsense. It’d be, like, two sentences.

[Lord_Caerolion]

The only time it is modeling for advantage is in a tournament setting.

 

And the reason for that is it is the only time you will potentially see more than 1 instance of the same character.

 

If one version of Shrike can break LOS behind a piece of terrain but another cannot break LOS behind the same piece, then the version that can has an unfair advantage.

 

In a single game where there can only be 1 Shrike it doesn't matter in the slightest.

 

How do you interpret that, though? Why should I be penalized for things other people did or didn't take? If I'm the only person who models my Apothecary with standing legs rather than kneeling like many people do, does that count as modelling for advantage? 

 

EDIT: Or what about using the Heroic Bases that GW themselves sell, most of which increase the overall height of the model significantly?

 

EDIT Part 2: Another thought just occurred. If 3 people take Shrike, and 2 remove his scenic base, does this mean that the 3rd with the original model should get punished, because that's now the odd one out, and getting a LoS advantage? 

[Slave to Darkness]

http://www.thebadguyswin.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/conversions.jpg

Converted missile launcher guy (yea its 1st ed but my point still stands, the first paragraph of Line of Sight says 'The firer must be able to draw a clear line of sight to the intended target: a firer cannot shoot at a target thet he could not theoretically see. This is the basic rule - and you must use your common sense when you interpret it'.)    Clearly they had no problem with converting prone minis as they show them off in their books. 

 

 

and a more recent Catachan Sniper...

If GW really gave a :cuss about TLoS they wouldnt have kneeling Marine and Guardsmen legs or stupidly oversized scenic bases, modelling for advantage was never a thing mentioned by GW, its more of a 'community' thing that people have ran with like its written in stone. 

 

We better tell our armed forces to not kneel or duck because its unfair to those shooting at them. 

[Lord_Caerolion]

"Hah, I got you!"

"Nu-uh, see, no wounds no me!"

"I would have if you were standing up, you're cheating! It's not FAIR!"

"Nu-uh, not cheating!"

"United Nations! These guys are lying down and shooting at us, that's cheating! Make them stop!"

[MegaVolt87]

Ah miniwargaming, where the terrain rules and line of sight always changing, but the modeling for advantage arguments remain the same regardless. 

[MARK0SIAN]

It’s cool to see conversions on characters etc so I’d personally be really flexible on Shrike. This is also partly because I probably couldn’t shoot him anyway even if I could see him and he’s not a long range shooty unit.

 

However, on the other side of the coin, I’d personally be a bit more strict on conversions for regular units. For example, if someone has left the flying stems off some inceptors and it’s allowed them to hide behind something they wouldn’t otherwise have been able to, then I would probably feel a bit irked that I couldn’t shoot them.

 

Overall though I think this problem only stems from 8ths poor line of sight rules anyway. Fix them and problems like this go away in a lot of cases.

[Midlight]

Maybe make him a tall hat. If anyone complains he can wear his hat to make up the height difference.

[Halandaar]

Okay, so... I've heard of people removing/reworking the big fugly rock that is Shrike's base - I did the same thing - and being accused of modeling for advantage. I'd like to hear from the community on this.

 

The correct response to anybody who says this to you is: 

 

]

 

It's on the same base size, it's a similar height, he's sub-10 wounds so they can't target him anyway and he's Raven Guard so even if you can target him, he's a bugger to hit. Basically, if you're going to be pedantic about such a minor edge-case thing, go find someone else to play.

[Claws and Effect]

 

 

The only time it is modeling for advantage is in a tournament setting.

 

And the reason for that is it is the only time you will potentially see more than 1 instance of the same character.

 

If one version of Shrike can break LOS behind a piece of terrain but another cannot break LOS behind the same piece, then the version that can has an unfair advantage.

 

In a single game where there can only be 1 Shrike it doesn't matter in the slightest.

How do you interpret that, though? Why should I be penalized for things other people did or didn't take? If I'm the only person who models my Apothecary with standing legs rather than kneeling like many people do, does that count as modelling for advantage?

 

EDIT: Or what about using the Heroic Bases that GW themselves sell, most of which increase the overall height of the model significantly?

 

EDIT Part 2: Another thought just occurred. If 3 people take Shrike, and 2 remove his scenic base, does this mean that the 3rd with the original model should get punished, because that's now the odd one out, and getting a LoS advantage?

Simple solution: Don't play in tournaments.

 

Like I said in the post you quoted, that is literally the only time it matters at all.

 

And secondly, how I would interpret it is irrelevant. It's how the tournament organizers interpret it that matters, and it varies between tournaments.

 

At a small tournament at your local game store, you'll probably be fine doing pretty much whatever with your models.

 

At any tournament that is actually sponsored by GW? You'd better make sure any conversions at least have the same dimensions as the official model.

[Ciler]

However, on the other side of the coin, I’d personally be a bit more strict on conversions for regular units. For example, if someone has left the flying stems off some inceptors and it’s allowed them to hide behind something they wouldn’t otherwise have been able to, then I would probably feel a bit irked that I couldn’t shoot them.

But then again, if you don't have LoS on them then they don't have LoS on you either and they become a non-problem (for the time being anyway). The perceived "advantage" in terms of cover is a perceived "disadvantage" in terms of shooting.

[MARK0SIAN]

 

However, on the other side of the coin, I’d personally be a bit more strict on conversions for regular units. For example, if someone has left the flying stems off some inceptors and it’s allowed them to hide behind something they wouldn’t otherwise have been able to, then I would probably feel a bit irked that I couldn’t shoot them.

But then again, if you don't have LoS on them then they don't have LoS on you either and they become a non-problem (for the time being anyway). The perceived "advantage" in terms of cover is a perceived "disadvantage" in terms of shooting.

That’s true but the fact they fly means it will often be super easy for them to move to get LoS on me in their turn.

 

Whilst you’re right that there’s an advantage and disadvantage in doing it, purely from my point of view, the advantage is greater than the disadvantage.

[Ciler]

Again, that's assuming that you have the first turn. But I don't disagree with you, I'm merely pointing out that there's arguments in favour of both views and that at the end of the day it boils down to a purely subjective, individual, and case by case view on the matter ; and therefore in a situation in which no-one can objectively "win" the argument. In short, it's all down to whether players are playing together or against each other (aka one of them is "that guy").

[Warsmith Annüss]

This why I prefer a volume based LoS, much like WM does. It keeps everything consistent. You take the width of the base and measure up a certain height. Vehicles could be a bit tricky but infantry is easy.

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

 

The only time it is modeling for advantage is in a tournament setting.

 

And the reason for that is it is the only time you will potentially see more than 1 instance of the same character.

 

If one version of Shrike can break LOS behind a piece of terrain but another cannot break LOS behind the same piece, then the version that can has an unfair advantage.

 

In a single game where there can only be 1 Shrike it doesn't matter in the slightest.

How do you interpret that, though? Why should I be penalized for things other people did or didn't take? If I'm the only person who models my Apothecary with standing legs rather than kneeling like many people do, does that count as modelling for advantage?

 

EDIT: Or what about using the Heroic Bases that GW themselves sell, most of which increase the overall height of the model significantly?

 

EDIT Part 2: Another thought just occurred. If 3 people take Shrike, and 2 remove his scenic base, does this mean that the 3rd with the original model should get punished, because that's now the odd one out, and getting a LoS advantage?

Simple solution: Don't play in tournaments.

 

Like I said in the post you quoted, that is literally the only time it matters at all.

 

And secondly, how I would interpret it is irrelevant. It's how the tournament organizers interpret it that matters, and it varies between tournaments.

 

At a small tournament at your local game store, you'll probably be fine doing pretty much whatever with your models.

 

At any tournament that is actually sponsored by GW? You'd better make sure any conversions at least have the same dimensions as the official model.

 

 

So we're not allowed to use the Heroic Bases for our heroes, official bases sold by GW for the explicit purpose of being used on character models? Sure thing.

 

You also haven't answered whether it's modelling for advantage to make use of the kneeling legs that come in the Command Squad kit. If I use those on a Captain model, is that modelling for advantage, despite being official GW parts, even included in the same box (Captain + Command Squad)?

 

That's edging towards "no conversions allowed whatsoever, only stock models" in terms of rulings.

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

Increasing height is considered a disadvantage so heroic bases usually aren't a problem. This is because any small model such as infantry which gains a sight advantage from height will output nowhere near as much firepower as something that naturally towers over the battlefield like knights and titans and flying vehicles, while you also open up potentially the entire enemy army shooting at you just to gain LoS you normally wouldn't have had.

 

Same reason increasing base size to a larger-than-normal size for that unit (outside of aura units) is usually fine but decreasing it is potentially a problem.