Fortification for IF

[Rodrick]

What do you guys think?, imperial bastion with 3 units of elimators seems powerful.

 

IF kinda synergizes with fortifications,

The cons, they're very expensive, 100p is one unit of intercessors less(85)

[Lemondish]

What do you guys think?, imperial bastion with 3 units of elimators seems powerful.

 

IF kinda synergizes with fortifications,

The cons, they're very expensive, 100p is one unit of intercessors less(85)

 

The Bastion is 192 points. The Bunker is 100. Bastion is 20 T9 wounds with a 3+, comes with 4 heavy bolters, 10 Fire Points, and can hold any number of Characters and one other infantry unit, up to a maximum of 20 models. Seems like you're actually talking about Bunkers here. 

 

Which are 12 T8 wounds, 5 Fire Points, and an optional weapon with a maximum of 10 models. Is it the Fire Points you're interested in with this Eliminators idea? Keep in mind that one major issue for with Fortifications is the lack of auras available to the units within them. They can't benefit from anything so they're not as offensively capable while inside compared to outside. Is it worth protecting a unit that is worth less than the Fortification? After all, why not just buy 3 more Eliminators with spare change for something else? For the cost of a Bastion, you could almost run 2 Bunkers. 

 

Where I do see value in Fortifications is as alpha strike protection and extra movement for units that eat up a huge chunk of your points cost but would benefit greatly from the movement and turn 1 protection without having to sink points into a more expensive transport option. Things like Centurions and Aggressors spring to mind. Slow and lumbering but with a short and devastating threat range and such a potential offensive punch in their little frames that you know your opponent will want them dead.

[domsto]

According to my Experience Fortifications are never worth their Points.

The benefits they have clearly does not outshine their drawbacks.

So basically the Points for Fortifications are always better spend somewhere else. 

Edited November 11, 2019 by domsto

[Hellebras]

 

Keep in mind that one major issue for with Fortifications is the lack of auras available to the units within them. They can't benefit from anything so they're not as offensively capable while inside compared to outside.

 

While it's not strictly related to the thread, and I agree with the main points (that is that the points spent on fortifications generally won't be worth it), this gave me an idea for how to make a fortification that's worthwhile. Some sort of command bunker, or an improved comms relay available to a few different fortifications. Which would boost the aura ranges of any embarked characters and maybe do something with command points if the Warlord is embarked (maybe something like the rule on the Damocles Command Rhino where an embarked Warlord makes a Leadership test at the end of the player's turn to gain a command point). The general uselessness of fortifications has bothered me all edition.

[Mandragola]

Fortifications are mostly rubbish. You can only put a single unit in them (and any number of characters) meaning that 3x3 eliminators is not legal. Eliminators don’t really need or want it anyway, though they do benefit from better LoS in a bastion – albeit for nearly quadrupling the cost of their unit.

 

I can see a sort of argument for putting shooty centurions in a fortification. They don’t take up any more space than anyone else in there, and up to 5 can fire out of even a bunker. This could theoretically be worth it, to protect them from things like psychic powers early on, but of course it comes at the expense of range and auras.

 

Another use for fortifications is to stuff all your characters inside on turn 1. This helps lower your drop count, which is relevant at some events, and will prevent pesky snipers and psykers from doing anything horrible to them – at least for a turn.

[Lemondish]

Fortifications are mostly rubbish. You can only put a single unit in them (and any number of characters) meaning that 3x3 eliminators is not legal. Eliminators don’t really need or want it anyway, though they do benefit from better LoS in a bastion – albeit for nearly quadrupling the cost of their unit.

 

I can see a sort of argument for putting shooty centurions in a fortification. They don’t take up any more space than anyone else in there, and up to 5 can fire out of even a bunker. This could theoretically be worth it, to protect them from things like psychic powers early on, but of course it comes at the expense of range and auras.

 

Another use for fortifications is to stuff all your characters inside on turn 1. This helps lower your drop count, which is relevant at some events, and will prevent pesky snipers and psykers from doing anything horrible to them – at least for a turn.

That's mostly what I was suggesting, and you don't even need those Cents to stay past one turn. They solve the range issue by deploying that T9 20W bastion on the line, jumping out within 3", and taking their 4" move. Given the size of their base, that'll have them about 9" from your deployment zone, which is much further than they otherwise would be without the Bastion. Plus you get turn 1 protection for them and all your characters. Is it worth the points? Not in cut throat tournament play, that's for sure. But those lists take a boring supplement and make it even more boring.

 

I might try it out for the flavour of the whole thing. A building?! In 40k?! How quaint.

Edited November 11, 2019 by Lemondish

[Dont-Be-Haten]

A bastion at the tip of deployment to secure a full 6 man squad of centurions for turn 1 protection is pretty neat.

 

Turn 1 disembark them free 3" then move 4" into the middle of the field. It gives you extra threat range to pop seismic devastation etc earlier.

[Rodrick]

A bastion at the tip of deployment to secure a full 6 man squad of centurions for turn 1 protection is pretty neat.

 

Turn 1 disembark them free 3" then move 4" into the middle of the field. It gives you extra threat range to pop seismic devastation etc earlier.

 

 

yeah i wanted to do that, but i misread the point cost, bastion is 190ish points , thats a lot

[Mandragola]

It really is a lot. For roughly 80 points more you ccoukd have a land raider of some kind to put your centurions in. I’m vaguely considering doing that.

[faithonwings]

How about a imperial defence line? It's cheapisch, gives cover to you'r centurions Plus it makes a good target for the bolster defence stratagem. Any considerd these?

[Logiter]

Personally I like 6 lascannon/hurricane bolter centurions in a bastion.

 

Lots of extra wounds, and even if enemies charge the bastion you can still shot from the fire points.

 

And if I remember correctly, the enemies aren’t “locked” in combat with the building, so they can still be shot as well

[MegaVolt87]

It’s like Patton said, “fixed fortifications are monuments to mankind’s stupidity”.

 

You’re probably better off taking more guns.

 

That, or you could just have the table layout with bastions, defence lines, bunkers etc for zero points. 

Edited November 19, 2019 by MegaVolt87

[jeremy1391]

Depending on your meta a bastion can be great if you know you are going to be facing eliminators or thunderfire cannons. Keeping your characters and centurions safe for a turn or two is very valuable!

[Zustiur]

Points value aside, I find I never want to use buildings because of the loss of rerolls.

[DesSaboteur]

Points value aside, I find I never want to use buildings because of the loss of rerolls.

 

This right here is the biggest thing i think that would bring buildings back into the game. If you allow all models inside of a building to benefit from any auras from characters within the building then I personally would start to consider them once again. 

[Lemondish]

 

 

Points value aside, I find I never want to use buildings because of the loss of rerolls.

This right here is the biggest thing i think that would bring buildings back into the game. If you allow all models inside of a building to benefit from any auras from characters within the building then I personally would start to consider them once again.

Same. Until then the offensive potential of firepoints feels extremely limited and as such the only real value is turn 1 protection.

[Exilyth]

Bastion (4 heavy bolters), Devastator Squad (5 marines w/4 heavy bolters)

 

Maximizes range synergy and synergy with IF CT while being relatively cheap. Loss of rerolls doesn't hurt high RoF weapons as much.

Too bad fortifications do not benefit from chapter tactics.

[Captain Caine 24th]

If not a fortification, how are centurions protected? It seems like several strategems can stack on an IF infantry unit, but it seems expensive. Centurion firepower is staggering, but getting consolidated into or piled into in combat is a real threat. Still, I agree forts are pricey.

[Zustiur]

Centurions in a fortification makes more sense if they're lascannons/missile centurions. That way range is no concern and they're super expensive so the bastion becomes less expensive by comparison.

 

Another thing that would help if if you could put more than one unit inside. If it has capacity for 20, 4x5 devastators would be amazing, but that's not permitted.

[Mandragola]

It sort of makes sense to put las/missile centurions in a fortification. The trouble is, at that point it probably makes more sense to just take some other lascannon platform, like tanks, dreadnoughts or planes, and spread the points around several units.

 

And of course, lascannons and missile launchers aren’t especially good for Fists. Our bonuses work better with rapid-firing guns – not single-shot D6 damage stuff. As such, we probably wouldn’t want to take las/missile centurions in the first place.

[Happy-inquisitor]

For what it's worth the datasheets for fortifications have changed in CA19 and you now get two infantry units to embark in a fortification - but no longer get as many characters as will fit.

 

So an imperial bunker with a couple of Eliminator squads in it could be fun to play, you do not shoot all the guns most turns so the lack of firepoints is not an issue and you now have a sniper nest that is really durable to the sort of ignores-cover weaponry that typically removes Eliminators. I think it only works as part of an approach to put a T7/T8 wall of models on the table that really challenges your opponents anti-tank and limits / eliminates the value of their Thunderfire Cannons etc. Still with the change it could possibly be worth a look as a sort of skew anti-meta list.