Siege of Terra - Saturnine by Dan Abnett

[b1soul]

I struggle to call it the best, as it didn't really engage me emotionally. Still very entertaining though, and the action packs a real punch.

[Felix Antipodes]

edit: disregard Edited May 25, 2020 by Felix Antipodes

[Bobss]

Giving definite numbers to a sci-fi battle, never mind a sci-fi battle fought like an ancient or medieval battle with big ol walls and things, is a doomed endeavour. I thought The Solar War handled the scale of the conflict superbly, but that is a battle fought in a strictly science fiction context with planets, moons, kilometre-long battleships and the entire solar system to play around with

 

Meanwhile there are no spaceports in real life, so I have to put great attention into imagining one in my head using descriptions and maps and things. Add to this hundreds of thousands of blokes fighting and firing from it against hundreds of thousands of other blokes attacking it, and the whole thing falls down. This isn't Borodino or Verdun or Stalingrad, where exact numbers and formations works a charm, it's a setting where broader strokes like 'there were titans from one end of the horizon to the other' or something very focused like 'Loken and Abaddon had their fabled punchup at wall sector E as the battle milled around them' works better for the reader

 

From what I've read/heard though Dan the Man uses a number of different styles to depict the conflict so I'm not complaining

[Moonreaper666]

Man, what a book. Right now it's the best book of all HH series.

My only complaint is the strange sense of the scale.

Eternity Wall space port is defended by 9k soldiers, meanwhile Perturabo mentions at least 659 millions of combatants inside the Palace. I mean, it's the strategic location. Dorn even sent some reinforcements... Only one thousand arrived. It's nothing in terms of the Siege. Lion's Gate space port was defended by 18k Imperial Fists and 790k troopers. And the whole point of Saturnine ruse is to show some decent defence of the port. But as we see, Dorn sent none of valuable assets. No Space Marines, no Titans, just rag-tag force and disgraced general. It's funny that both defenders and attackers (Khârn) see how poorly space port is defended.

 

Equally strange is the kill team strength. Did loyalists expect to kill godlike Horus and SoH spear-tip strike force throwing at them 700 marines?

 

Speaking of 700... 700 Imperial Fists on the Saturnine wall repelled full Third Legion (100k marines). How it's even possible?

 

The fall of Corbenic on the 18 of Secundus (5 days since the bombardment of Terra began) was ridiculous.

Between Beta-Garmon, Solar War, LoTD and First Wall much of the cannon fodder on both sides has been turned to beef patties

 

There are Loyalist and Traitor forces outside of the Imperial Palace fighting each other

[b1soul]

The numbers thrown around in Saturnine are relatively tame... clashes between thousands as opposed to hundreds of thousands or millions IIRC

[karden00]

Any idea when this book will come available? Ebook or otherwise?

[Moonreaper666]

The numbers thrown around in Saturnine are relatively tame... clashes between thousands as opposed to hundreds of thousands or millions IIRC

I wonder why? Can someone ask Dan Abnett?

 

There are still many novels and short stories to read through so I doubt either side is running low on manpower or Marines

[Matcap86]

Wow just finished the book in the dead of night, couldn't put it down. This might be my favorite HH Book yet. Loved it.

[Lucerne]

Man, what a book. Right now it's the best book of all HH series.

My only complaint is the strange sense of the scale.

Eternity Wall space port is defended by 9k soldiers, meanwhile Perturabo mentions at least 659 millions of combatants inside the Palace. I mean, it's the strategic location. Dorn even sent some reinforcements... Only one thousand arrived. It's nothing in terms of the Siege. Lion's Gate space port was defended by 18k Imperial Fists and 790k troopers. And the whole point of Saturnine ruse is to show some decent defence of the port. But as we see, Dorn sent none of valuable assets. No Space Marines, no Titans, just rag-tag force and disgraced general. It's funny that both defenders and attackers (Khârn) see how poorly space port is defended.

 

Equally strange is the kill team strength. Did loyalists expect to kill godlike Horus and SoH spear-tip strike force throwing at them 700 marines?

 

Speaking of 700... 700 Imperial Fists on the Saturnine wall repelled full Third Legion (100k marines). How it's even possible?

 

The fall of Corbenic on the 18 of Secundus (5 days since the bombardment of Terra began) was ridiculous.

The Third Legion was at 50k after Istvaan 3. The war has not been kind to their size.

And they lost about 20k here

[Sviox]

Any idea when this book will come available? Ebook or otherwise?

July 21. According to Amazon.

[Moonreaper666]

 

 

Man, what a book. Right now it's the best book of all HH series.

My only complaint is the strange sense of the scale.

Eternity Wall space port is defended by 9k soldiers, meanwhile Perturabo mentions at least 659 millions of combatants inside the Palace. I mean, it's the strategic location. Dorn even sent some reinforcements... Only one thousand arrived. It's nothing in terms of the Siege. Lion's Gate space port was defended by 18k Imperial Fists and 790k troopers. And the whole point of Saturnine ruse is to show some decent defence of the port. But as we see, Dorn sent none of valuable assets. No Space Marines, no Titans, just rag-tag force and disgraced general. It's funny that both defenders and attackers (Khârn) see how poorly space port is defended.

 

Equally strange is the kill team strength. Did loyalists expect to kill godlike Horus and SoH spear-tip strike force throwing at them 700 marines?

 

Speaking of 700... 700 Imperial Fists on the Saturnine wall repelled full Third Legion (100k marines). How it's even possible?

 

The fall of Corbenic on the 18 of Secundus (5 days since the bombardment of Terra began) was ridiculous.

The Third Legion was at 50k after Istvaan 3. The war has not been kind to their size.

And they lost about 20k here

Haven't all of the Legions been recruiting new Marines throughout the Heresy?

[Petitioner's City]

 

 

Man, what a book. Right now it's the best book of all HH series.

My only complaint is the strange sense of the scale.

Eternity Wall space port is defended by 9k soldiers, meanwhile Perturabo mentions at least 659 millions of combatants inside the Palace. I mean, it's the strategic location. Dorn even sent some reinforcements... Only one thousand arrived. It's nothing in terms of the Siege. Lion's Gate space port was defended by 18k Imperial Fists and 790k troopers. And the whole point of Saturnine ruse is to show some decent defence of the port. But as we see, Dorn sent none of valuable assets. No Space Marines, no Titans, just rag-tag force and disgraced general. It's funny that both defenders and attackers (Khârn) see how poorly space port is defended.

 

Equally strange is the kill team strength. Did loyalists expect to kill godlike Horus and SoH spear-tip strike force throwing at them 700 marines?

 

Speaking of 700... 700 Imperial Fists on the Saturnine wall repelled full Third Legion (100k marines). How it's even possible?

 

The fall of Corbenic on the 18 of Secundus (5 days since the bombardment of Terra began) was ridiculous.

The Third Legion was at 50k after Istvaan 3. The war has not been kind to their size.

And they lost about 20k here

Haven't all of the Legions been recruiting new Marines throughout the Heresy?

 

 

Recruited and lost, presumably, given the deadly nature of the war - no one is coming to Terra with "full" numbers given the war they've fought. With newer marines inducted at faster speeds, they presumably have lower efficacy and stability in conflict. In addition, it may be that the visible corruption of the IIIrd legion (physical and mental) has indeed weakened it. Remember also in Talon of Horus Khayon mentioned how the 3rd abandoned the front lines; it could be that already many elements of the legion have abandoned the walls for easier pickings and thus 'full legion' is possibly not, but it could just reflect that the IIIrd's heart isn't at the Palace, but elsewhere. 

[Moonreaper666]

 

 

 

 

Man, what a book. Right now it's the best book of all HH series.

My only complaint is the strange sense of the scale.

Eternity Wall space port is defended by 9k soldiers, meanwhile Perturabo mentions at least 659 millions of combatants inside the Palace. I mean, it's the strategic location. Dorn even sent some reinforcements... Only one thousand arrived. It's nothing in terms of the Siege. Lion's Gate space port was defended by 18k Imperial Fists and 790k troopers. And the whole point of Saturnine ruse is to show some decent defence of the port. But as we see, Dorn sent none of valuable assets. No Space Marines, no Titans, just rag-tag force and disgraced general. It's funny that both defenders and attackers (Khârn) see how poorly space port is defended.

 

Equally strange is the kill team strength. Did loyalists expect to kill godlike Horus and SoH spear-tip strike force throwing at them 700 marines?

 

Speaking of 700... 700 Imperial Fists on the Saturnine wall repelled full Third Legion (100k marines). How it's even possible?

 

The fall of Corbenic on the 18 of Secundus (5 days since the bombardment of Terra began) was ridiculous.

The Third Legion was at 50k after Istvaan 3. The war has not been kind to their size.

And they lost about 20k here

Haven't all of the Legions been recruiting new Marines throughout the Heresy?

Recruited and lost, presumably, given the deadly nature of the war - no one is coming to Terra with "full" numbers given the war they've fought. With newer marines inducted at faster speeds, they presumably have lower efficacy and stability in conflict. In addition, it may be that the visible corruption of the IIIrd legion (physical and mental) has indeed weakened it. Remember also in Talon of Horus Khayon mentioned how the 3rd abandoned the front lines; it could be that already many elements of the legion have abandoned the walls for easier pickings and thus 'full legion' is possibly not, but it could just reflect that the IIIrd's heart isn't at the Palace, but elsewhere.

It is much easier for the Legions to mass-produce geneseed in the Heresy and make new Marines in bulk. Most of the Legions have lost over 150k Marines each during the Heresy

 

Not all of the Marines of the Legions that participated at Terra were there. A few IF Marines are in Inwit and Necromunda. Few Marines in the Legions' Homeworlds.

 

Present day Loyalist Chapters have to deal with Post-Heresy redtape when it comes to making new geneseed as the Imperium deduced that impure geneseed leads to Chaos corruption. Traitor warbands have their own problems making or stealing new geneseed

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

 

 

 

Man, what a book. Right now it's the best book of all HH series.

My only complaint is the strange sense of the scale.

Eternity Wall space port is defended by 9k soldiers, meanwhile Perturabo mentions at least 659 millions of combatants inside the Palace. I mean, it's the strategic location. Dorn even sent some reinforcements... Only one thousand arrived. It's nothing in terms of the Siege. Lion's Gate space port was defended by 18k Imperial Fists and 790k troopers. And the whole point of Saturnine ruse is to show some decent defence of the port. But as we see, Dorn sent none of valuable assets. No Space Marines, no Titans, just rag-tag force and disgraced general. It's funny that both defenders and attackers (Khârn) see how poorly space port is defended.

 

Equally strange is the kill team strength. Did loyalists expect to kill godlike Horus and SoH spear-tip strike force throwing at them 700 marines?

 

Speaking of 700... 700 Imperial Fists on the Saturnine wall repelled full Third Legion (100k marines). How it's even possible?

 

The fall of Corbenic on the 18 of Secundus (5 days since the bombardment of Terra began) was ridiculous.

The Third Legion was at 50k after Istvaan 3. The war has not been kind to their size.

And they lost about 20k here

Haven't all of the Legions been recruiting new Marines throughout the Heresy?

Recruited and lost, presumably, given the deadly nature of the war - no one is coming to Terra with "full" numbers given the war they've fought. With newer marines inducted at faster speeds, they presumably have lower efficacy and stability in conflict. In addition, it may be that the visible corruption of the IIIrd legion (physical and mental) has indeed weakened it. Remember also in Talon of Horus Khayon mentioned how the 3rd abandoned the front lines; it could be that already many elements of the legion have abandoned the walls for easier pickings and thus 'full legion' is possibly not, but it could just reflect that the IIIrd's heart isn't at the Palace, but elsewhere.

It is much easier for the Legions to mass-produce geneseed in the Heresy and make new Marines in bulk. Most of the Legions have lost over 150k Marines each during the Heresy

 

Not all of the Marines of the Legions that participated at Terra were there. A few IF Marines are in Inwit and Necromunda. Few Marines in the Legions' Homeworlds.

 

Present day Loyalist Chapters have to deal with Post-Heresy redtape when it comes to making new geneseed as the Imperium deduced that impure geneseed leads to Chaos corruption. Traitor warbands have their own problems making or stealing new geneseed

 

 

Yes, but they're also in a war the likes of which the Imperium has literally never seen before, with all of the strains on supply lines that come with that. Sure, there's no oversight, but that's not the issue here. The Emperors Children are already incredibly fragmented as a Legion, just waiting for Skalathrax to break them utterly.

[Moonreaper666]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Man, what a book. Right now it's the best book of all HH series.

My only complaint is the strange sense of the scale.

Eternity Wall space port is defended by 9k soldiers, meanwhile Perturabo mentions at least 659 millions of combatants inside the Palace. I mean, it's the strategic location. Dorn even sent some reinforcements... Only one thousand arrived. It's nothing in terms of the Siege. Lion's Gate space port was defended by 18k Imperial Fists and 790k troopers. And the whole point of Saturnine ruse is to show some decent defence of the port. But as we see, Dorn sent none of valuable assets. No Space Marines, no Titans, just rag-tag force and disgraced general. It's funny that both defenders and attackers (Khârn) see how poorly space port is defended.

 

Equally strange is the kill team strength. Did loyalists expect to kill godlike Horus and SoH spear-tip strike force throwing at them 700 marines?

 

Speaking of 700... 700 Imperial Fists on the Saturnine wall repelled full Third Legion (100k marines). How it's even possible?

 

The fall of Corbenic on the 18 of Secundus (5 days since the bombardment of Terra began) was ridiculous.

The Third Legion was at 50k after Istvaan 3. The war has not been kind to their size.

And they lost about 20k here

Haven't all of the Legions been recruiting new Marines throughout the Heresy?

Recruited and lost, presumably, given the deadly nature of the war - no one is coming to Terra with "full" numbers given the war they've fought. With newer marines inducted at faster speeds, they presumably have lower efficacy and stability in conflict. In addition, it may be that the visible corruption of the IIIrd legion (physical and mental) has indeed weakened it. Remember also in Talon of Horus Khayon mentioned how the 3rd abandoned the front lines; it could be that already many elements of the legion have abandoned the walls for easier pickings and thus 'full legion' is possibly not, but it could just reflect that the IIIrd's heart isn't at the Palace, but elsewhere.

It is much easier for the Legions to mass-produce geneseed in the Heresy and make new Marines in bulk. Most of the Legions have lost over 150k Marines each during the Heresy

 

Not all of the Marines of the Legions that participated at Terra were there. A few IF Marines are in Inwit and Necromunda. Few Marines in the Legions' Homeworlds.

 

Present day Loyalist Chapters have to deal with Post-Heresy redtape when it comes to making new geneseed as the Imperium deduced that impure geneseed leads to Chaos corruption. Traitor warbands have their own problems making or stealing new geneseed

Yes, but they're also in a war the likes of which the Imperium has literally never seen before, with all of the strains on supply lines that come with that. Sure, there's no oversight, but that's not the issue here. The Emperors Children are already incredibly fragmented as a Legion, just waiting for Skalathrax to break them utterly.

By M42, the Emperor's Children are much larger than during the Heresy. Same with the Death Guard and Black Legion

 

The Iron Warriors and Word Bearers still have Heresy numbers but have billions of normal soldiers under their command

[Blood Angel Scout]

10K years vs 7 years in Total war conditions. Not sure why it's brought up if there's numbers presented in Saturnine?

The First Wall already made reference to the Emperor's Children abductions, from the old lore/template for the current, we know they focus less on the siege and more on the rest of the populus, so their numbers become less relevant and I and probably many others who know this, are expecting to see this being played out. Almost like Horus Heresy Bingo.

 

Also, isn't there a chapter in Solar War from a fresh recruit's perspective then other comments in other novels regarding their lack of experience in comparison to veterans so the death rate is higher.

 

Thanks for the info on release date Sviox.

[Carach]

there were millions on the eastern front in ww2. Far more than ever arrived on the western front. The troop density was less than that of the western front (generally), however, because of the vast spaces. 

 

We are talking about a continent-sized palace under siege, let alone an entire planet with military assets spread about it. *Millions* can't really fit into the eye or into a building. 

 

Whilst I haven't read this book yet, I imagine Dan 'tones back' the numbers to make things a little more realistic. Otherwise you're going to run into problems with troops being everywhere at once and 'teleporting' - and we don't want this to be the last season of Game of Thrones, do we?

Edited June 22, 2020 by Carach

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

By M42, the Emperor's Children are much larger than during the Heresy. Same with the Death Guard and Black Legion

 

The Iron Warriors and Word Bearers still have Heresy numbers but have billions of normal soldiers under their command

 

 

Source regarding the Emperors Children numbers? Plus, we're not arguing about the size of the Legions in M42, but at the Siege of Terra. The replenishment rate can't be that large, given the Salamanders didn't really take part in the Heresy after their near-annihilation at Istvaan, and yet were only able to create 3 Chapters or so during the Second Founding.

 

EDIT: And yes, some Legions have recruited far larger numbers, but those are mostly the Legions which have been noted as having a quicker implantation process, like the Iron Warriors and World Eaters. The Emperors Children, with all their geneseed issues, are not what you would really include in that group. So, we've got a Legion that after Istvaan began a descent into total corruption, a process that was increased dramatically after Fulgrims ascension, which has largely broken down any semblance of military order or organization in favour of their own hedonism. 

 

I don't exactly trust that the Emperors Children are capable of maintaining large-scale implantation and development. Sure, they've got Fabius, but he's just one guy. 

 

And lastly, as an aside, of course the Black Legion are larger than during the Heresy, because the Black Legion didn't exist then. They're not the Sons of Horus with a different name. The Sons died in the Legion Wars, some of the refugees joined the Black Legion, but so did members of the other Legions. 

Edited June 22, 2020 by Lord_Caerolion

[Moonreaper666]

there were millions on the eastern front in ww2. Far more than ever arrived on the western front. The troop density was less than that of the western front (generally), however, because of the vast spaces.

 

We are talking about a continent-sized palace under siege, let alone an entire planet with military assets spread about it. *Millions* can't really fit into the eye or into a building.

 

Whilst I haven't read this book yet, I imagine Dan 'tones back' the numbers to make things a little more realistic. Otherwise you're going to run into problems with troops being everywhere at once and 'teleporting' - and we don't want this to be the last season of Game of Thrones, do we?

But the Imperial Palace is huge, surely it can hold a few billion soldiers in it!

 

Trillions should be fighting all over Terra

[DarKnight]

FYI for anyone interested, the ebook is now available on Amazon.

[Blood Angel Scout]

I fell for Black Library's "Buy now, can't read until" set up again.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I'm enjoying the read, but it still suffers from different author syndrome. You have all these pre-existing characters that just act like brand new characters in each siege book. I feel like perturabo and loken are among the few that follow their established personality, but man is it disorienting to lurch from each authors take

[RedFurioso]

perturabo and loken are among the few that follow their established personality

Haley's Peturabo and Abnett's/French's Perturabo are two different persons. I remember negative comments after the Lost and Damned came out, because Haley (altough great writer) absolutely can't write primarch dialogues.

[DarKnight]

I fell for Black Library's "Buy now, can't read until" set up again.

It’s happened to me so many times lol SMH

[DarKnight]

I fell for Black Library's "Buy now, can't read until" set up again.

It’s happened to me so many times lol SMH

I'm enjoying the read, but it still suffers from different author syndrome. You have all these pre-existing characters that just act like brand new characters in each siege book. I feel like perturabo and loken are among the few that follow their established personality, but man is it disorienting to lurch from each authors take

I only take seriously the depictions I feel are true to the characters which takes a bit of compartmentalization, but I don’t have the urge to read every single book of the series either, thankfully