Siege of Terra - Saturnine by Dan Abnett

[Morovir]

Betrayal states that there was no fixed structure above the company, which would indicate a lack of chapters.

[StrangerOrders]

Something noted across the Black Books and at play to a lesser extent in the BL HH is that a Legion is for better or worse often a reflection of their Primarch in organization as with alot of things.

 

To that end I think the events surrounding the XVIth in both this book and StD is probably the best illustration of how raw a deal the Wolves got when Horus went full potato.

 

The XVIth never really got either the time before Horus or the breathing room after to really have that permissive an identity compared to their brother Legions. In a sense Horus structured them almost like a personality cult.

 

Betrayal discusses that Horus's reasoning was primarily rooted in both a desire for flexibility and to know exactly who was doing what in the name of precision. But with a consequence of power being fluid and very much up to Horus's whim (its even discussed that he worked to erode any previous structures in the Legion).

 

Honestly it is kinda obvious how barbarous they are in hindsight, they were more something like the Visigoths if Alaric had been immortal than a real institution. 

 

Take out Horus and suddenly Slaves, Saturnine and their rather pathetic death in the Legion Wars makes sense. Their sense of brotherhood and institution was always shaky because there was never really a space for that to properly develop because the Legion was very much just 'Horus'. 

 

Heck, their driving actions in this book are basically so Horus will notice them and whether ADB meant it or not the Black Legion books have an air of 'well I'm better than my dad' to Abbie. 

 

Although I guess in a certain respect that does make them the most Space Marine of Space Marine Legions.

[RedFurioso]

Some thoughts about SoH numbers

 

Prior to operation it was mentioned that traitors planned to use at least 20 Terrax-pattern Termits. The capacity of Terrax is 25 marines, so 20 Terrax = 500 marines.

The number of Plutona-pattern and Mantolith-pattern is unknown.
However, Traitors used at least 3 Manotlith (100 Catulan, 100 Vincor Tactical, 100 Justaerin). So we can add 300 more.

 

5 Plutona were mentioned too: Aximand, Goshen, Thedra Destroyer, and two destroyed by Loken (40 marines inside) and Haar. 240 marines total.

We got at least dead 1040 marines. Not bad.

And the First Company was described in Betrayal as small and divided between Justarin and Catulan, though I don't know why Vincor Tactical is part of the First Company...

[bluntblade]

I'm pretty sure Solar War gives us a number for Aximand's Fifth Company.

[SkimaskMohawk]

A terrax holds 12.

[RedDragon]

On Solar War and Aximand's company;

 

'Two companies of Sons of Horus stood ready in its holds, a thousand of the Legion's best killers, and it mounted cannons that could hammer targets to ruin,'

 

Presumably, the standard company runs at around 500 Marines - I think similar numbers are given for Tenth Company in Horus Rising.

[Fedor]

Finally got to read this recently and thought it was mostly excellent. An ideal mid-point book that will probably represent one of the loyalist tactical high points.

 

The only scene that outright didn't work for me was the final Loken Aximand confrontation and that quip. Abnett maybe went too far with the amount of SoH character deaths ( i'd like to have Marr around for longer) yet that remains up in the air for me, until we see what the next books do. It certainly creates space for some deeper character work on the traitor side.

 

Other controversies like Erda and the extent of her involvement with the primarchs also feel like something we need to see where they take it before taking sides. As of now it was vague enough to be a fascinating addition without being the sledgehammer revelation/retcon some have treated it as.

[ninja6fett]

Finally got to read this recently and thought it was mostly excellent. An ideal mid-point book that will probably represent one of the loyalist tactical high points.

 

The only scene that outright didn't work for me was the final Loken Aximand confrontation and that quip. Abnett maybe went too far with the amount of SoH character deaths ( i'd like to have Marr around for longer) yet that remains up in the air for me, until we see what the next books do. It certainly creates space for some deeper character work on the traitor side.

 

Other controversies like Erda and the extent of her involvement with the primarchs also feel like something we need to see where they take it before taking sides. As of now it was vague enough to be a fascinating addition without being the sledgehammer revelation/retcon some have treated it as.

 

I really liked Abnet's explanation in his afterword that he needed it to be an absolute slaughter of important targets because anything less would cheapen just how big a win this was for Dorn.

[Moonreaper666]

 

 

Finally got to read this recently and thought it was mostly excellent. An ideal mid-point book that will probably represent one of the loyalist tactical high points.

 

The only scene that outright didn't work for me was the final Loken Aximand confrontation and that quip. Abnett maybe went too far with the amount of SoH character deaths ( i'd like to have Marr around for longer) yet that remains up in the air for me, until we see what the next books do. It certainly creates space for some deeper character work on the traitor side.

 

Other controversies like Erda and the extent of her involvement with the primarchs also feel like something we need to see where they take it before taking sides. As of now it was vague enough to be a fascinating addition without being the sledgehammer revelation/retcon some have treated it as.

I really liked Abnet's explanation in his afterword that he needed it to be an absolute slaughter of important targets because anything less would cheapen just how big a win this was for Dorn.

Only for the Traitors to turn things around in later books including Dan's second one which is also the final book in both the Siege of Terra and Horus Heresy Novels

 

Um, the Loyalists lost many important characters. I can think of three in my head just now

[Kizzdougs]

I've just finished Saturnine and really enjoyed it. I wouldn't go so far as to say that it was my favourite Heresy novel, but it was definitely my favourite Siege book. 

 

I felt that it had really great pacing and I found all of the characters compelling and interesting. I've found some of the secondary character perspective in some of the Heresy novels relatively forgettable, but there weren't characters like that in Saturnine.

 

Having said that, there were two aspects of the novel which felt really off to me.

 

1. The massacre of the Justaerin. We're constantly told how powerful and unstoppable Terminator armour is. It's often described as being "tank like" and power armoured marines in Heresy novels often accept how completely outclassed they are by Terminators when faced by them. The Sons of Horus are masters of Terminator combat. They were one of the first Legions to deploy it en masse and their preferred tactic of the 'Spear Tip' strike is perfect for Terminator armour. The Justaerin are the best of the best. They are possibly the most elite Terminator formation of any Legion and are lead by probably the greatest astartes commander, Abaddon.

 

I felt like they went down way too easily, and it never felt like the Loyalists were in any danger of losing control of the situation. Of course the loyalists were prepared for the attack, but the rapid and sudden nature of the teleport strike from the Justaerin robbed them of the surprise they leveraged to over-power the SoH which came in via the termites. I seem to remember someone creasing a terminator's helmet with a punch? Ridiculous. 

 

The A-Team (Garro & Loken et al), some Black Shields and the Imperial Fists just cut straight through 100 of the greatest Terminator armoured warriors... maybe Abnett should have made a bigger deal of the Loyalist casualties? 

 

2. The Emperor's Children. So Dorn, Sigismund and a couple of their kill teams defeat the entire IIIrd Legion (I think it was mentioned that they were 100k in strength?) when the Emperor's Children were already on the walls... okay.

Maybe I'm too much of an EC fan, but I never imagined that Dorn would be able to take on Fulgrim so easily. Especially Daemon Prince Fulgrim. I totally understand that Primarch vs Primarch fights are always super tight and are usually decided by one of them having an environmental advantage or getting lucky, but Dorn seemed to handle one of the most accomplished duelist Primarchs way too easily. I felt like Alpharius came much closer to killing Dorn than Fulgrim ever did. Guilliman's duel with Fulgrim went very differently. Maybe he should have taken some lessons from the Praetorian.

 

I understand that the Traitors had to lose (because if they won at the Saturnine Wall they would have breached the inner palace and the Siege would be over in short order), but a Night of the Wolf style tactical victory would have felt more genuine and less like the Traitors being used as a punching bag for Dorn and fan favourites like Loken and Garro. It also felt like the fact that the Traitors can be resurrected by Chaos was used as an excuse for the Loyalists to make them look like chumps because "who cares? They can just come back". Should have been a Night of the Wolf style ending.

 

 

Anyway, I still enjoyed the book, and until the last three for four Chapters I had absolutely zero complaints :tu:

[RedFurioso]

A terrax holds 12.

In FW rules, yes. But in the book it can hold 25

 

 

 

I've just finished Saturnine and really enjoyed it. I wouldn't go so far as to say that it was my favourite Heresy novel, but it was definitely my favourite Siege book. 

 

I felt that it had really great pacing and I found all of the characters compelling and interesting. I've found some of the secondary character perspective in some of the Heresy novels relatively forgettable, but there weren't characters like that in Saturnine.

 

Having said that, there were two aspects of the novel which felt really off to me.

 

 

I felt like they went down way too easily, and it never felt like the Loyalists were in any danger of losing control of the situation.

IIRC at the end of fight almost all space marines involved from both sides were dead, hence 'final minute of the fight'.

It's worth to note that 100 Justaerin fought against ~250 Loyalists, and these Loyalists had Heavy 'Murder sections' and Katechon terminators.

[Kizzdougs]

 

A terrax holds 12.

In FW rules, yes. But in the book it can hold 25

 

 

 

I've just finished Saturnine and really enjoyed it. I wouldn't go so far as to say that it was my favourite Heresy novel, but it was definitely my favourite Siege book. 

 

I felt that it had really great pacing and I found all of the characters compelling and interesting. I've found some of the secondary character perspective in some of the Heresy novels relatively forgettable, but there weren't characters like that in Saturnine.

 

Having said that, there were two aspects of the novel which felt really off to me.

 

 

I felt like they went down way too easily, and it never felt like the Loyalists were in any danger of losing control of the situation.

IIRC at the end of fight almost all space marines involved from both sides were dead, hence 'final minute of the fight'.

It's worth to note that 100 Justaerin fought against ~250 Loyalists, and these Loyalists had Heavy 'Murder sections' and Katechon terminators.

 

Fair enough, that wasn't the impression that I got. I'm not sure that the 'final minute of the fight' suggests that the most of the loyalists died, it just means that the Justaerin were nearly all dead by that stage. I remember that 48 marines (I think) from one of the kill teams were killed when they were caught off guard by one of the earlier SoH units, but I don't remember it mentioning how many died fighting the Justaerin. I'll have to reread it when I get a chance. Maybe the second time through will change howI feel about it :tu:

[SkimaskMohawk]

@red furioso rules dictate the fluff. I guess rhinos can hold a company if it gets put in a novel eh?

 

@kizzdougs

 

endryd haar has a power fist and is speculated to be a thunder warrior due to his sheer size and aggression. Easily capable of punching in terminator helmets.

 

I do agree on the wall fight and how dorn seemed to just walk over daemon fulgrim, but then after he just healed to full I took it to mean the fulgrim was just sandbagging to see what would happen. Its still dumb that he'd just give up though

 

[grailkeeper]

Just finished it. I had heard there were major changes to the lore,but avoided finding out what they were. I didn't pick up on them in reading it. Can anyone enlighten me? Edit: Nevermind. Thanks!

Edited July 16, 2020 by grailkeeper

[Dagoth Ur]

Finally managed to get my copy and about 3/4 through - some thoughts:

 

Very interesting plot wise however, I am really not a fan of how colloquial the language of space marines and primarchs is in some spots. Particularly the opening chapters make me scratch my head a bit as both use base profanity and a lot of contracted language. I don't have an issue with profanity per se - I guess I just didn't expect Jaghatai to blurt out "I don't give a s***." or for Space Marines to act so...human? Also, the whole B-Plot centered on the mortal auxilia leaves me totally cold. While decently written, the whole (XYZ Regiment) thing gets real old real fast and constantly took me out of the reading experience to such an extent that I started to skip whole paragraphs whenever I would see the parentheses. I guess I am also not all that interested in their perspectives - I'd rather see more from maybe traitor auxilia, mechanicum personnel or even more from Sinderman's perspective. This is certainly the best book in the SoT series thus far when it comes to plot, I expected much more from Abnett in terms of writing. To me, this is one of his weaker entries in his BL portfolio.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Definitely agree on the speech patterns of primarchs and marines. Everyone's there to chat it up; transhuman reserve/gravitas is missing.

[b1soul]

Abnett's dialogue definitely exhibits more casual speech patters (Astartes and Primarchs included). Definitely one of his hallmarks

[mc warhammer]

my introduction to primarchs and astartes dialogue was "horus rising" so i started off used to this kinda thing and i'm not bothered by it

 

i'd put money on even most historic soldiers and conquerors swearing with the best of them. lofty speech patterns are more of a hollywood/marvel by way of shakespeare type thing. i think even LoTR could do with some decent cussing

[Dagoth Ur]

See, the funny thing is - this has never bothered me before in a Black Library novel written by Abnett before. I went and cross-compared a little bit, and I think it might just be that I find it a bit overbearing/overused here.

 

As for lofty speech patterns being more of a marvel/hollywood thing - I think the two of us have observed very different versions of marvel and hollywood in the last decade. The reason it strikes me as weak writing here, is because Primarchs and Astartes have always had an air of Greek Demi-Gods and heroes around them - so I'd expect them to speak more pointed and less "humanized" as they stand somewhat above that position in life. It makes me feel too much like I could sit down with Dorn or Jaghatai and have a pint - which is decidedly not a feel I want to get from larger-than-life heroes. That's like Achilles or Aragorn walking up to me and saying "Oi m8" which is totally out of character for both the narrative figure and the tone of the setting/faction.

 

Finished the novel a few hours ago. I liked the ending, the plot overall is pretty good (not too rankled at the Auxilia thing - plenty of people like it, its probably more of a me-thing) but yeah, the writing felt rather stilted in places and not up to par to what I am used to from Abnett.

Edited July 17, 2020 by The Observer

[RedFurioso]

It makes me feel too much like I could sit down with Dorn or Jaghatai and have a pint

You actually could with Russ...

 

Astartes often swearing in the books, it's just those words rarely written outright.

Just look at the Spear of the Emperor. Explicit use of words bastard, arse, :cuss etc in Astartes small talk. Sure, Emperor's Spears are savages, but Khan is a savage too.

[Dagoth Ur]

 

 

It makes me feel too much like I could sit down with Dorn or Jaghatai and have a pint

You actually could with Russ...

 

Astartes often swearing in the books, it's just those words rarely written outright.

Just look at the Spear of the Emperor. Explicit use of words bastard, arse, :cuss etc in Astartes small talk. Sure, Emperor's Spears are savages, but Khan is a savage too.

Aye, but the difference there to me is that A.) it's not quite as base of profanity as sh** and f*** - I'd expect Herkules to call his enemy a bastard, or the Khan to call someone a grox arse, but I just don't expect either to go "Dont give a s***/f*** you". B.) It's a lot less overbearing in The Spear of the Emperor because it is a LOT less frequent. It wouldn't have bothered me as much in Saturnine if it hadn't happened like a dozen times in the first 3 chapters alone.

[mc warhammer]

See, the funny thing is - this has never bothered me before in a Black Library novel written by Abnett before. I went and cross-compared a little bit, and I think it might just be that I find it a bit overbearing/overused here.

 

having not read it yet, i'm open to the idea that dan has leaned too heavily on it in ways he might not have in horus rising. i'll find out soon.

 

 

As for lofty speech patterns being more of a marvel/hollywood thing - I think the two of us have observed very different versions of marvel and hollywood in the last decade.

 

to clarify; whenever marvel comics try to do gods and goddesses, it comes across as cheesey rather than epic. but i don't mind that in my comic books. same goes for hollywood takes like troy ("we are lions" hahahahaha) etc.

 

i do like hbo's rome for all it's bawdiness and graffiti and tiny buildings.

 

in general, the big difference between primarchs and gods of myth is that a lot of the primarchs grew up working class, or warrior class or poor or enslaved or in villages or as criminals rather than on olympus. they had a distinct lack of elocution classes. guys like robuote or perturabo would carry them with a certain regal quality, whereas the khan would swear and spit like a ancient mongol and angron would be coarse as possible...but still regal in their own unrefined ways. fulgrim is one who i imagine put on airs he learnt later in adulthood, but is working class in his heart. horus seemed to endeavour towards an opposite perception; to make himself as relatable as possible to his people.

 

but i take your point, it could go too far. but so far we haven't actually heard an "oi mate" from any of the primarchs...have we?

Edited July 17, 2020 by mc warhammer

[godking]

 

See, the funny thing is - this has never bothered me before in a Black Library novel written by Abnett before. I went and cross-compared a little bit, and I think it might just be that I find it a bit overbearing/overused here.

 

having not read it yet, i'm open to the idea that dan has leaned too heavily on it in ways he might not have in horus rising. i'll find out soon.

 

 

As for lofty speech patterns being more of a marvel/hollywood thing - I think the two of us have observed very different versions of marvel and hollywood in the last decade.

 

to clarify; whenever marvel comics try to do gods and goddesses, it comes across as cheesey rather than epic. but i don't mind that in my comic books. same goes for hollywood takes like troy ("we are lions" hahahahaha) etc.

 

i do like hbo's rome for all it's bawdiness and graffiti and tiny buildings.

 

in general, the big difference between primarchs and gods of myth is that a lot of the primarchs grew up working class, or warrior class or poor or enslaved or in villages or as criminals rather than on olympus. they had a distinct lack of elocution classes. guys like robuote or perturabo would carry them with a certain regal quality, whereas the khan would swear and spit like a ancient mongol and angron would be coarse as possible...but still regal in their own unrefined ways. fulgrim is one who i imagine put on airs he learnt later in adulthood, but is working class in his heart. horus seemed to endeavour towards an opposite perception; to make himself as relatable as possible to his people.

 

but i take your point, it could go too far. but so far we haven't actually heard an "oi mate" from any of the primarchs...have we?

 

True i don't expect Guilliman Perturabo Dorn or Magnus to be coarse in conversation. I would expect Angron Jaghatai Russ to be when angered.

[Roomsky]

I feel this raises the age-old debate of what should be respected, where a work has gone or where a work began. I’d argue all the coarse language in Saturnine is just Abnett pushing the language closer to what it was back in his and Mcneill’s early vision for the series. Mcneill especially is very fond of the word sh*t. As someone who has grown increasingly frustrated with the Heresy’s tendency to drift into how things work in 40k, I welcome the swerve. That said, I can respect the view that Abnett’s responsibility is to respect what others have set up rather than force things back to his own vision (see: Keeler in this book, true to Abnett, a continuity snarl to everyone else’s.)

 

I would argue that flippancy is a part of the Sixteenth’s identity in any case, though. Even French gave them a more informal attitude compared to his normally extremely formal writing. I’m also of the opinion Abnett should generally be left to his own characters, this is the best I’ve liked Aximand since the last time the man wrote him.

[Noserenda]

Well that was a ride, bit of a slow start but really got rolling at the end!

Personally the language fit the scenes it came up in, almost always extremely stressful ones. I mean ive been reduced to nothing but a stream of obscenity as argument after like 3 days of simulated field combat, let alone something like the siege.

The numbers felt off, the spaceport felt massively underdefended even as Dan hammered home that hundreds of millions were fighting around the perimeter in minor clashes one of their linchpins was under 10k? 

The radio chatter scenes were a bit tedious too, though after reading the afterword i can see what Dan was doing there and i can admit it was effective :D 

Land and the Interrogators were both delightful, good to see Sinderman having something to do other than hang around more motivated people for the first time in forever!

But yes, very solid book, good to see the siege getting back on track tbh! Some spoilers below (duh)

Im not sure Sanguinius' visions added anything? Again Dan implies they will pay off later but they were very meh right now.

The perpetuals plot whilst obviously deeply controversial with fans i hear really didnt go anywhere in this book, i assume that ball is gonna keep rolling though, i can only hope the various authors handle it well as it could go horribly flangewrong.

I freaking Loved that Oll was not Oll at all, really well played sir.

The fights at the end were superb, especially the fists v emperors children on the wall. That was a really good and satisfying Primarch fight, plus some serious kill bill vibes when he noped out and left his minions to fight. Sigismund genuinely felt like a killing machine too, which is nice change from him moping around the place.

Mercy me a lot of folks die at the end. Im curious about Kilbre though, as he pops up in the Black legion books apparently alive. That said Dan makes a big point of amongst others talking to ADB about things so maybe there is a plan there?

Loken has gotten a bit more interesting too, straight up murdering little horus with that last line, let alone the chainsword :D 

"You were always the wrong Horus" savage :D