Siege of Terra - Saturnine by Dan Abnett

[Noserenda]

Also...

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I took a little while to parse Abnetts use of Jennetia Krole, like i get that the SoS are an obscure faction but hot damn, imagine if anyone elses lone Special Character got used so badly and then killed so tediously...  (Not a pissing match, im sure and certain plenty of named and special characters die badly but when you only have one, and she never shows up, it cuts a bit deeper im sure.)

The Pariah "invisibility" sure, thats a thing even if Krole has never been mentioned as using that degree of Pariah power but its quite cool and maybe shes just dialled it up because shes running solo. One of the Emperors personal generals just deciding to commit suicide by last stand because....? lols? 

urgh, i suppose its my own fault for getting excited about SoS getting featured in something again (As i knew she had an art page i mistaken thought she might be more central) at least we still have Aleya and i guess good old AK herself.

It was cool to see her chop down significant numbers of baddies at least, though at least one of those scenes just felt like Abnett playing with a World Eater name generator.

But as a kamikaze appearance could he not have used a more obscure figure, or invented one? Hell, the Idea of a special Moritat like SoS rank or Null Assassins would have been cool as heck. 

Which makes you think, if you have significant numbers of Nulls hanging around the palace and one of your fronts is literally melting due to psyker nonsense over a few days, would you not pull in the nulls? Even a few squads could make all the difference stationed at command positions or patrolling to drive off the daemon flies no? 

Finally in my secondary rant :P Listing a whole bunch of characters who literally just die, many not even on screen in your Dramatis personae is just nonsense Dan, please dont everyone start this....

(Still love most of the book :D ) 

[mc warhammer]

i'm all for more name characters biting the bullet. more "game of thrones" than MCU

[StrangerOrders]

  On 7/19/2020 at 11:24 PM, Noserenda said:

Well that was a ride, bit of a slow start but really got rolling at the end!

 

Personally the language fit the scenes it came up in, almost always extremely stressful ones. I mean ive been reduced to nothing but a stream of obscenity as argument after like 3 days of simulated field combat, let alone something like the siege.

 

The numbers felt off, the spaceport felt massively underdefended even as Dan hammered home that hundreds of millions were fighting around the perimeter in minor clashes one of their linchpins was under 10k? 

 

The radio chatter scenes were a bit tedious too, though after reading the afterword i can see what Dan was doing there and i can admit it was effective  

 

Land and the Interrogators were both delightful, good to see Sinderman having something to do other than hang around more motivated people for the first time in forever!

 

But yes, very solid book, good to see the siege getting back on track tbh! Some spoilers below (duh)

 

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Im not sure Sanguinius' visions added anything? Again Dan implies they will pay off later but they were very meh right now.

 

The perpetuals plot whilst obviously deeply controversial with fans i hear really didnt go anywhere in this book, i assume that ball is gonna keep rolling though, i can only hope the various authors handle it well as it could go horribly flangewrong.

 

I freaking Loved that Oll was not Oll at all, really well played sir.

 

The fights at the end were superb, especially the fists v emperors children on the wall. That was a really good and satisfying Primarch fight, plus some serious kill bill vibes when he noped out and left his minions to fight. Sigismund genuinely felt like a killing machine too, which is nice change from him moping around the place.

 

Mercy me a lot of folks die at the end. Im curious about Kilbre though, as he pops up in the Black legion books apparently alive. That said Dan makes a big point of amongst others talking to ADB about things so maybe there is a plan there?

 

Loken has gotten a bit more interesting too, straight up murdering little horus with that last line, let alone the chainsword  

 

"You were always the wrong Horus" savage  

 

An interesting but obscure note.

 

The Daemon possessing the Justaerian in the Black Legion books seems to have a curious ease with controlling them and is blindly loyal to Abby, more to the point it was noted to feel strangely familiar and to not behave like a Daemon should.

 

It also didnt respond until Abby showed up.

 

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Just saying... something spilled out of him when he died...

 

Just an idea, but an interesting one.

[DarkChaplain]

I finally decided to get started on the audiobook, and... yeah, the number of times that Rogal Dorn of all Primarchs starts swearing at his "bastard" brothers, or the "loyal bastards" in the prologue alone was rather... out of character. Yes, it's a moment where he lets his guard down, and I liked the callback to The Lightning Tower in regards to repeated phrases, but overall, I was surprised by how casual Dorn acted towards Sindermann in general. I generally liked the scene, mind you, but Dorn was very chatty compared to his previous iterations, with more profanity - even at the loyalists - than I think I've ever seen him utter.

[SkimaskMohawk]

@nosrenda

 

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krole is handled rather weirdly. We have the almost complete invisibility that pretty much only custodes can see through; the first world eater the book shows her killing only notices her because her aura shuts down his warp-connection. And by notices her I mean notices somethings wrong. But Khârn is so enthralled by khorne that her aura stops working on the warp part which steers him to kill her, but he still doesn't notice her himself because of her aura...

 

Then there's the part where she thinks that it'll be the first time she fought world eaters as berzerkers, but she fought all through calastar, killing all sorts of world eaters (on top of the huge amounts of daemons). It really shouldn't be anything new.

[depthcharge12]

Just finished so excuse my brevity for jumping over the 40 pages y’all have established already. Not gonna bother with spoiler tags...youre 40 pages in at this point, you know what you’ve gotten yourself into.

The Good:
- competent guardsmen. Can’t go without saying it was nice watching trained guardsmen being competent and doing more than pissing their pants and dying like other BL writers. Kind of Abnett’s thing, but worth mentioning
- playing around with not Oll and other “apocryphal” tales
- Erda, Leetu, and flushing out some interesting elements you never really think of
- attention to siege details, geography
- setting up Dorn with an actual personality and tacticool genius

The Bad:
- Deus Ex bad guys. Sometimes the Heretics are extremely competent and blow over the loyalists with extreme prejudice, speed of action, and brutality. Most of the time they are easily outmaneuvered fools, incompetent, and easily destroyed. The tempo goes from one extreme to the other. At the begging of the novel, the heretics have good pacing and are a credible threat behind every corner waiting for the loyalists to let up. At the end, the pacing is erratic and Dorn and the banana legion just wipe the floor with anyone they meet. Not by a small margin, not by a reasonable margin, but by a margin that makes me wonder why any of the other three legions bothered defending Terra.

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Camba Diaz bites it sadly, but other IF don’t seem to bite it at all. Siggy gets backhanded into next week then defeats about 2 dozen of the best 3rd legion swordsmen that ever existed in the next frame 10 minutes later.

The sublime swordsmen enhanced by the warp and years of combat don’t even pose a threat to Dorn and Siggy. They fold like a wet napkin. It reads like a crappy marvel blockbuster.

- Personal Pedantry. Abnett spends a great time giving attention to detail and even pats himself on the back, but then goes on to call magazines clips and has IF legionaries salute their officer IN A COMBAT ZONE. What?

- Dragon Ball Z effect. Individual actors fight, get stuck, then think “this isn’t working...but what if I punched harder?” Sloppy writing


The Ugly
- The constant “White Scars are noble savages” trope every single dang chapter they are featured in. Anytime the WS are mentioned Dan beats you over the head constantly reminding you that they are misunderstood barbarians, but actually civilized and good dudes. Like shut up I’m tired of it, say it once and be done with it. Why would anyone think they are barbarians if every time someone saw them in combat they thought, nah these guys are totally misunderstood and civilized in their own way? Like stereotypes aren’t stereotypes without a hint of truth. Say they are not barbarians and be done with it, or say it then show them in a different chapter actually being barbaric to show some truth to the dang thing being mentioned anytime someone has a red scar on their armor. Absolutely tired, sloppy garbage writing. I expected more out of Abnett, and I really like the guy and his earlier writing.

- Imperial Fist fan fic circlejerk. Ok I know I will hurt some feelings saying this but hear me out. I love Fafnir Rann, I think Camba Diaz is a badass. The IF deserved their time in the sun, and Dorn got written really well...but holy hell.

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Why even bother having the other two legions at the defense of Terra when the Fists body 3/4 of the Mournival, 3 of the best SoH companies, two dozen of the 3rd legions best swordsmen, and push Fulgrim off? They only lost Camba Diaz and some worthless newbie in return.

I really liked how the IF were doing their absolute best and fighting the hardest battle of their lives and doing a fantastic job...but it devolved into the second half of the book sounding like some fanfap drivelfest for the yellow boys. It wasn’t a narrow margin win or even a reasonable but costly win, it was a straight up slaughter of Mary Sue proportions. Abnett writes in the afterward that it had to be done to show Dorn’s tactical genius and committing to a risky strategy but it never felt like they were ever in trouble. I’m sitting here wondering how the traitors managed to get as far as they did and do such damage if they were this stunningly bad.

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- Jenetia Krole just lawnmowering over WEs, then dying by a gentle fart from Khârn. She went from being extremely well written and interesting to blazing through the baddest world eaters out there and just going poof. No climax, no build up, just “yeah she killed all the champions in a sentence.”

That’s the worst kind of show dont tell I’ve seen in a while. Sorry man, that’s how I felt about the situation.


I understand there might have been a more realistic theme of famous heroes dying in their droves and unremembered, but this book in the second half smacked of:




7/10 on this one. I always like Abnett and some of the cool ancillary things as well as good guardsmen, but there are just some abrupt hand wavings that really pull the story down. Edited July 22, 2020 by Brother Lunkhead

[Lucerne]

In fairness, this is the time the Fists get to have nice things. With luck we get some proper slaughter later on in the Siege.

[Noserenda]

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In fairness Dorn has rounded up the best of all the planets defenders, not just Fists and they have both numbers and total surprise on the poor Sons of Horus, yet still the First company deployments manage to completely slaughter the defenders despite those advantages, especially the Justaeirn who drag nearly everyone in that fight to hell with them, i mean i know i was impressed, plus Abbaddon got some actual character for once, which was nice.

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The Wall fight i totally disagree with you on, murdering other would be Champions is what Sigismund does, its his whole thing, he is the best fighter in all the Legions and the siege is where he infamously bags horrific numbers of heads, yet hes basically spent the whole novel series so far bimbling around feeling sorry for himself, its a damn needed change of pace to actually get him out killing folks.

Plus Dorn is a Primarch, we all knew how that fight was going to go from the outset if we were paying attention. This is his probably last moment to shine before going off to sit in Bhab for the rest of the siege again. 

Let other factions have cool moments Especially after Fulgrim just took a big dump on Dorns self confidence Edited July 22, 2020 by Brother Lunkhead

[malika666]

Does the book include any hints/links/bits/easter eggs of stuff we'll see 10k years later? Let's say stuff that also appears in the Gaunt's Ghosts, Eisenhorn, or Ravenor books?

[bluntblade]

OK, I'm going to echo Observer in saying that some of the swearing and dialogue jarred a bit for me, and the prose wasn't as tight as it could've been.

 

However, when it works - and it succeeds comfortably overall - it works very well. That final act in particular is a ride and a half, though I'm anxiously waiting to see if we'll hear again from one particular character.

[StrangerOrders]

  On 7/21/2020 at 12:47 AM, Lucerne said:

In fairness, this is the time the Fists get to have nice things. With luck we get some proper slaughter later on in the Siege.

Its weird to see folks complain about the Fists given that the first three Siege Books are an opus to the Fists getting violently kicked in the teeth and Sigismund getting more harm to his character than Abby inflicted on his body.

 

Still better treatment than the Scars getting their Primarch almost taken down by a damned Plague Knife...

 

Also this book's Sangi is one of the few times he is properly allowed to do cool things (like the thing that Rann witnesses and goes 'No one is going to believe me if I tell this story.')

[bluntblade]

I'd say all the Fists get good showings, and I'm cool with it. Even Archamus the Younger, just holding things down in the Bastion.

 

Abaddon's sequence is magnificent too. And that whole sequence is wonderfully pitiless.

[bluntblade]

You know the kill-teams included Blackshields and Blood Angels, right? That was framed as mainly Loken's show.

[DarkChaplain]

Just a quick comment on the audiobook:

 

If I never again have to hear Jonathan Keeble imitate a terrible pseudo-German accent, it'll be too soon. My god, all the Zs.... Coupled with Jaghatai simply saying "I don't give a :cuss. Not a single :cuss" in that same scene, I'm cringing more than I should.

[Dagoth Ur]

  On 7/22/2020 at 1:51 PM, DarkChaplain said:

Just a quick comment on the audiobook:

 

If I never again have to hear Jonathan Keeble imitate a terrible pseudo-German accent, it'll be too soon. My god, all the Zs.... Coupled with Jaghatai simply saying "I don't give a :cuss. Not a single :cuss" in that same scene, I'm cringing more than I should.

Yeah, just started listening too. The German accent is just god-awful, and that's a Swissman saying that. The White Scars' pseudo-asiatic accent isn't as bad as it was in previous audio books but it still borders on racist pastiche - which is perhaps the biggest shame because the dialogue is usually good.

[Brother Lunkhead]

=][=

 

This is just a friendly reminder about spoiler tags.

Even though we are 41 pages into the discussion, this novel was only recently published, and a lot of Fraters have not yet read it (shocking, I know). Spoiler tags are required when describing a scene (in general or specific detail) where actions or dialogue leads to specific consequences or revelations. They are a requirement not an option.

 

I'd like to acknowledge the fact that the vast majority have observed this rule faithfully, and I greatly appreciate that. I'm sure that those who have not yet read Saturnine appreciate it as well.

 

=][=

[StrangerOrders]

  On 7/22/2020 at 3:11 PM, The Observer said:

 

  On 7/22/2020 at 1:51 PM, DarkChaplain said:

Just a quick comment on the audiobook:

 

If I never again have to hear Jonathan Keeble imitate a terrible pseudo-German accent, it'll be too soon. My god, all the Zs.... Coupled with Jaghatai simply saying "I don't give a . Not a single :cuss" in that same scene, I'm cringing more than I should.

Yeah, just started listening too. The German accent is just god-awful, and that's a Swissman saying that. The White Scars' pseudo-asiatic accent isn't as bad as it was in previous audio books but it still borders on racist pastiche - which is perhaps the biggest shame because the dialogue is usually good.

 

I am tempted to not even touch that darned 'asiatic Scars accent' hydra since it seems to keep growing heads. 

 

The Scars have strong accents and as I have never commiserated as much with a character as Yesugei's constant irritation with being half as eloquent in gothic than his native tongue, something I think is a familiar ire to those of us who immigrated young or are first generation in a country (especially those of us who were dumb enough to do it again ourselves), I like it. Actually I think anyone that had to pick up language (especially from a dramatically different language family) later in life and has self-awareness about their accents should, especially when you realize its retroactively screwing with your other accents. 

 

I have also spoken at length as to why it was passable to me here and on other threads (along with why I think its passable as Japanese but that the concept of an 'asian accent' is more than a bit farcical) and while the other accent didnt even register as German to me (granted, Europeans and northern europeans are my biggest blindspot in linguistics) I will say its a good thing, even if something to be improved.

 

It really does not matter if it sounds perfect, for the simple fact that an accent by definition does not sound perfect and ironically enough it takes alot of darned effort to be even sure what your own accent sounds like (especially if you have an unusual combination) and that it would mean you would need either a massive cast of readers (and ones who havent learned to polish out their accents to the point of defeating the purpose) or to dismiss the concept of accents entirely.

 

For my token? I don't care if it sounds great, in fact I want more of them. Baalites shouldn't speak gothic perfectly, why not give them either Italian or Arabian accents? Why do none of the Thousand Sons sounds at least a bit egyptian? I am not going to mention the Salamanders because I think that the voice they do for them is weird since they most closely mimic either early ethiopia (if we insist on ethnotypes only being allowed to rip on a matching one) or a weird cross of Mycenean and Minoan Greece. 

 

Put bluntly, its weird to me that the relatively homogenized Terrans are given a wider set of accents than the literal legions of (politely put) 'enthusiastically nationalistic' demigods.

 

Heck, it would be nice for someone to be given a hispanic accent since for some reason it seems like my ethnic group is the only one that went extinct somewhere over the millennia (even if I can bet my lucky coin it will either be Mexican or Puerto Rican, since its always one of those  ).

Edited July 22, 2020 by StrangerOrders

[bluntblade]

I'm still so, so glad that Wraight established that Shiban, Jubal etc have a better grasp of Terran than Yesugei.

[StrangerOrders]

  On 7/22/2020 at 8:50 PM, bluntblade said:

I'm still so, so glad that Wraight established that Shiban, Jubal etc have a better grasp of Terran than Yesugei.

ngl, my favorite thing about Jubal was that the most White Scar to ever White Scar was Terran.

 

Especially the part where (Hasik iirc) pokes fun at Jaghatai for assuming that he simply must be born Chogorian to comprehend the Chogorian way. 

 

Lets be real though the White Scars and Wolves honestly lucked out since their gene-seeds seem to somehow have a ridiculous tolerance for the elderly. 

Edited July 22, 2020 by StrangerOrders

[Biscuittzz]

About half way through and some things to note:

 

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- When the army unit is overwhelmed at the start by berzerker astartes, the berzerkers (who are later identified as WE, obviously) have white armour and black trim, while their 'handlers' have full black armour. What legion are the handlers? No one has black armour at this point? Unless Dan is mistaken. WE never had black either as a trim? Or has it been seen somewhere before? Not a big deal but there's lore, adjusting or tailoring said lore and then plain getting it wrong.

 

- I've always liked the use of numbers if they're done correctly and consistently. I think it helps to visual the scale rather than the constant use of epic, massive, apocalyptic etc. So we've been shown that a battle consists of 20k or 30k on each side from Perturabo's or Dorn's viewpoint and the number of battles taking place. Yet the Eternity wall space port only has 8k defending it? Seems a slight bit underwhelming considering it's supposed to be a main part of the defence (even with them giving it up).

 

-casemate, casemate, CASEMATE! I understand that you can only say fortification or wall so many times but Dan seems to have latched onto this word and uses it at any chance he gets. Not to mention using it inappropriately at times but anyhow.

 

-NON-VI! Same as above, if these terms are supposed to be standard to astartes or Imperial fists in particular, surely we would've heard them used in the last 3 books before. Again, it seems he's grown fond of another word to throw into as many places as possible. These are not big deals but just small things that get annoying when reading myself.

 

-Perpetuals storyline - I don't care at all about it. I think some things should have been left untold and a bit of mystery still remaining. There's just more questions now and that's not exactly good. It's kinda the same when time travel is brought up.

 

 

Overall, I'm enjoying it so far.

[Allart01]

I already read the LE when It came out, and expressed my toughts earlier in this thread.

 

I just came back to add this, as I'm currently listening the audio version:

 

EMMA GREGORY IS PURE GOLD.

 

I just love the way she reads the Sisters of Silence.

She Is amazing in Watchers of the Thrones, and she Is amazing reading Krole here.

[bluntblade]

  On 7/23/2020 at 10:45 AM, Biscuittzz said:

About half way through and some things to note:

 

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- When the army unit is overwhelmed at the start by berzerker astartes, the berzerkers (who are later identified as WE, obviously) have white armour and black trim, while their 'handlers' have full black armour. What legion are the handlers? No one has black armour at this point? Unless Dan is mistaken. WE never had black either as a trim? Or has it been seen somewhere before? Not a big deal but there's lore, adjusting or tailoring said lore and then plain getting it wrong.

 

- I've always liked the use of numbers if they're done correctly and consistently. I think it helps to visual the scale rather than the constant use of epic, massive, apocalyptic etc. So we've been shown that a battle consists of 20k or 30k on each side from Perturabo's or Dorn's viewpoint and the number of battles taking place. Yet the Eternity wall space port only has 8k defending it? Seems a slight bit underwhelming considering it's supposed to be a main part of the defence (even with them giving it up).

 

-casemate, casemate, CASEMATE! I understand that you can only say fortification or wall so many times but Dan seems to have latched onto this word and uses it at any chance he gets. Not to mention using it inappropriately at times but anyhow.

 

-NON-VI! Same as above, if these terms are supposed to be standard to astartes or Imperial fists in particular, surely we would've heard them used in the last 3 books before. Again, it seems he's grown fond of another word to throw into as many places as possible. These are not big deals but just small things that get annoying when reading myself.

 

-Perpetuals storyline - I don't care at all about it. I think some things should have been left untold and a bit of mystery still remaining. There's just more questions now and that's not exactly good. It's kinda the same when time travel is brought up.

 

 

Overall, I'm enjoying it so far.

I assumed they were meant to be Blackshields of some identified stripe.

[DarkChaplain]

I know I might be beating a dead horse at this point, but I found the second pseudo-German accent just a chapter later. It's no less annoying than the first. I also have no bloody idea why Keeble reads Rann's rank of "seneschal" as "seneskal" - the spelling and pronunciation *does* exist, but that's not what's written in the book. It's a very outdated form. I also do not recall him using the same pronunciation for the term in The First Wall, so this seems like yet another instance of Keeble being inconsistent from one book to the next.

 

I'm also starting to see what people meant when they criticise the terminology and swearing. The whole "non-vi" thing reminds me a lot of previous instances where Abnett tried to inject some sort of catchphrase / traditional saying to a Legion, even if they've never used it before. Sometimes it works, sometimes it just seems like a weird addition. It's the latter here. And for the swearing? Hearing Abaddon saying "like a grox in :cuss", just a bit after Jaghatai's profanity... I dread where this is going.

 

There's good stuff here, without a doubt. But damn me, between the strange Abnettisms and Keeble's... expected delivery, I'm having a hard time staying invested or paying attention. I find myself rewinding a lot. Considering this is the longest Siege novel yet, this might just take me forever

[JH79]

It's worth noting that Keeble will only be doing what Black Library's ADR Director is asking for, accents, pronunciation and all. He's not making things up as he goes, the dude is a highly regarded award winning actor with a vast back catalog of completed works. He is easily the equal of Toby Longworth, but seems to get quite a bad rep at times.

 

The White Scars accents have chopped & changed so much over the years, even in the span of these past 4 Siege books. Under Heavy Ent the Scars had a consistent mild middle eastern accent, which Keeble performed really well, and that helped differentiate them from their Terran counterparts. Perring even mimicked this (though to much less affect) in one of the first Scars shorts that BL handled internally. Fast forward to Path of Heaven though and I have no clue what the hell BL were thinking when they asked John Banks to use THAT of all tones / accents. Bloody madness, regardless of how well he acted it, especially the Khan's final deceleration to the invading Daemons... that was pretty *cussing* metal!!

 

Any voice actor / actress has to be directed, the pay cheque dependent responsibility is on their shoulders to put in a great performance, but, Black Library are ultimately accountable for the end product. If Black Library are happy with what they've asked for then our ire should be directed at them, not the artist who's opinion on what accent they were asked to use may mimic our own.

Edited July 23, 2020 by JH79

[mc warhammer]

just adding that actors, especially award winning ones, have a fair bit of input into the accents they're performing. depending on the influence available to the actor, they could actually be making it all up themselves or an even collaboration between themselves and director. at the very least, they both settle on something they agree works "on the day"