Competitive Black Templars -- PA2

[Marshal Laeroth]

I had originally intended to post this on my blog, as quite frankly, the toxicity of this forum has grown to such levels that I am loathe to shift through all of these threads to sort the good from the bad.  It is the largest congregation of Black Templars players, however...so visiting here is important.  I run my website to help Black Templars players.  I would be remiss if I did not try to do that here as well.  Having good conversations, analyzing our rules, and generating ideas is hugely important to all of our success on the battlefield.  I am not a mod, but I would ask that you all keep to the topic at hand.  So I am going to focus on competitive Black Templars and what we can bring to the table.

 

I know that it is still early and we are missing a ton of the pieces of the puzzle, but my mind has already begun to combo things from the new SM codex and the stuff that we have already seen in PA2.  So I think its important that we talk about the things that have been released so far.

• We know that our Chapter Tactic focuses around close combat.  Our improved reroll charging dice gives us about a 56% chance to reach combat from 9" away from our target.  Which is significantly better than the vast majority of our opponents and is unique in that it allows for a close combat alpha strike.  In addition, we have the 5+ mortal wound save.  This is huge.  You right off the bat, invalidate 1/3 of all mortal wounds against you...including those that you give to yourself (e.g. explosions, company veterans).  However, this alone does not give you a huge step up in close combat effectiveness over your opponents.  Shock Assault helps, but doesn't quite get there.  That's where Knights of Sigismund helps.
• Knights of Sigismund generates an automatic wound on an unmodified roll of 6 while in Assault Doctrine.  Let’s look at how effective this is for us.  Using a baseline 5-man Crusader squad, you will kill 5.833 GEQ/2.333 MEQ on the charge without our auto-wound.  Add it in and we instantly bump those numbers to 7.083/3.333 respectively.  So about a wound extra for a basic 5-man squad.  More attacks mean bigger chances at activating this for our forces.  Veterans, Primaris, large Crusader squads, and Characters gain great benefit from this.  Its fortunate that it looks like we are getting ways to bolster the number of attacks we have.  It should be obvious, but being restricted to the Assault Doctrine is problematic…but I anticipate workarounds for this with our other strategems/relics.  It also is not as effective with weapons with high strength (or Helbrecht), as they are more likely to wound their targets anyway. 
• I am going to skip to Fires of Devotion here because I started touching on it above.  This is a litany that adds another attack to one unit within 6” of the chaplain.  HUGE buff to a squad, especially if that chaplain is running with larger units.  Even on a basic 5-man squad, that is another .696 GEQ/.418 MEQ dead.  The slight issue is that A) We have a 66% chance to be inspired. B ) We have to pick the unit at the beginning of the GAME turn, not our turn.  So theoretically, your opponent could move away and/or bubblewrap their units from a devastating charge on your turn if you go second.  Units that can fly especially love this.
• Epitome of Faith.  I am surprised less people are talking about this.  This is the 2^nd part of our psychic protection.  Previously, we had a 50% chance at nullifying psychic powers through our stratagem.  Now, we essentially have a librarian in our army…but better.  Why?  We can take it on any character and use it every turn, assuming your model is alive with no additional CP costs as was required of the stratagem.  And if you want, you can spend a CP to reroll one of the dice.  That is a huge advantage to nullify those pesky support powers.
• Shock and Awe.  This gives us the ability to ignore Overwatch and gives a charged unit a -1 to hit debuff, provided the unit you used it on disembarked from a LRC that turn.  This is entirely situational, but it can work.  LRC have a pretty big flaw in that they want to charge forward so they can shoot their guns and drop off their dudes.  The problem is, you can’t disembark AFTER the LRC moved.  This allows your opponent to plan where you are going to be charging, forcing you to potentially make very long-range charges.  It also puts your LRC in range of close/mid-range guns (which often are dedicated anti-tank) and incoming charges from your opponent.  If they surround you, you’re not disembarking.  Worse yet, you will likely lose a good chunk of your embarked unit if your opponent destroys the LRC while surrounding it due to lack of room for your models.  Sounds negative so far right?  Well, there is a plus side to this stratagem that makes it somewhat decent.  Instead of charging forward balls to the wall with the LRC…utilize it more as a counter-attack unit.  If your opponent is coming to you to get the midfield objectives or any number of ITC secondaries, that is where this stratagem becomes much more effective.  This allows you to debuff their advance forces and reduce incoming damage.  Use it late game and you’ll be hard to shift.
• Sword of Judgement.  I mean, its okay.  Decent against vehicles or higher toughness infantry, but I would also rather just take a thunder hammer for that.  Teeth of Terra is better against chaff, thunder hammers are better against elite infanty/vehicles.

 

So what do the sneak peaks lead me to believe about the direction of the BT?  Our forces are going to be devoted to clogging our opponent up with close combat units.  Combo drop pod units and concealed positions for first turn charges.  Follow up with a second wave of concealed position, deep striking, and/or other mech/footslogging units.  Rumors say we will be able to deny a fall back to one opponent unit per turn.  All these units potentially in your opponent’s face can force them to castle up, giving you great opportunity to control the board.  Take some flying units to jump over chaff and you’ll be sitting pretty.  Hard for shooting armies to win if their important units are stuck in combat against cheap units.  Each preview and rumor is making subtle buffs to close combat, so that when we are actually there, we don’t waste the game away in a stalled combat.

 

I envision units like the Invictor Warsuits, Reivers, Incursors, Scouts taking the first wave of assaults to the opponent…then following it up with Vanguard Vets/Company Vets, Terminators (maybe), and Crusader squads.  Our shooting is average being in the SM codex, but I feel that a couple of Thunderfire Cannons/Eliminator squads and maybe a dreadnought, will be enough shooting.

 

That’s a very overview stream of thought for me right now, without seeing all of the other rules in PA2.  Thoughts?

Edited November 13, 2019 by Marshal Laeroth

[MarshalMittermeier]

nice overview. i mostly agree:

 

-i believe the warlord trait is truly superb. why? because it is a warlord trait and not part of a model. you can pick this trait with your standard captain/chaplain and suddenly, all your matchups vs psychic-intensive armies will have "slightly" changed probabilities. this has such huge gain for such pesky opportunity cost. the true definition of competitive power is "how well this faction does vs the possible matchups, how many good and bad matchups it has" and this drasticaly changes this equation. i believe that although this change is subtle and hence "uncool", it is assymetricaly strong, even "sleeper OP"

 

 

-knights of sigismund is good. its not super-good, but we dont need it to be. what stops assault armies is not killiness or lack thereoff, but ways to get to cc.

 

-the idea of a new set of litanies (fires of devotion an example, combo that with master of sanctity) is extremely important. finaly, the black templars can have several options for Force Multiplier HQs. this will have an effect in list building and hence a big effect in the game.

 

-sword of judgement, shock and awe: meh. i can see how some playstyles and local metas may use them. personaly not my cup of tea. EDIT: i have no idea why people overplay the "shock and awe is bad" thing. first, it is not bad, just situational. second, a new codex could have 34 terrible or even unplayable  rules/units, and have just 2-3 OP rules and the few OP rules will get spammed into dominating the meta. so 1 rule that you dont like means nothing. the preview has tons of truly awesome stuff, i do not understand why we should focus on negatives.

 

I believe the way to go is Fly units and special deploy units (Reivers, Assault Squads, Vanguards, Jump Chaplains, say 30-40% of the force. maybe Terminators too, idk), beefed by Litanies, Knight of Sigismund and reliability for charges, backed up by strong shooty core.

Edited November 13, 2019 by MarshalMittermeier

[Smirnov]

I'm reserving my judgement untill the whole ruleset is released, mostly to see how we interact with Imperial Fists rules. If BT are indeed IF successors rules-wise, that would be a whole other can of worms.

 

And thaanks for posting here ) I fgured the only way to turn the tide of negativity is to provide positive content, so thumbs up here!

Edited November 13, 2019 by Smirnov

[Marshal Laeroth]

nice overview. i mostly agree:

 

-i believe the warlord trait is truly superb. why? because it is a warlord trait and not part of a model. you can pick this trait with your standard captain/chaplain and suddenly, all your matchups vs psychic-intensive armies will have "slightly" changed probabilities. this has such huge gain for such pesky opportunity cost. the true definition of competitive power is "how well this faction does vs the possible matchups, how many good and bad matchups it has" and this drasticaly changes this equation. i believe that although this change is subtle and hence "uncool", it is assymetricaly strong.

 

 

-knights of sigismund is good. its not super-good, but we dont need it to be. what stops assault armies is not killiness or lack thereoff, but ways to get to cc.

 

-the idea of a new set of litanies (fires of devotion an example, combo that with master of sanctity) is extremely important. finaly, the black templars can have several options for Force Multiplier HQs. this will have an effect in list building and hence a big effect in the game.

 

-sword of judgement, shock and awe: meh. i can see how some playstyles and local metas may use them. personaly not my cup of tea.

 

I believe the way to go is Fly units and special deploy units (Reivers, Assault Squads, Vanguards, Jump Chaplains, say 30-40% of the force. maybe Terminators too, idk), beefed by Litanies, Knight of Sigismund and reliability for charges, backed up by strong shooty core.

 

Exactly on the warlord trait.  Depending on the others that are released, this is almost an auto-take trait.  It helps us against a whole slew of opponents, for a marginal cost of 1 CP that can be used every turn (assuming the character is alive).  Compared to the stratagem we used to have, this is a massive upgrade.

 

I agree with you on our unit choices...flying and a smattering of special deploy units are where our lists are going to trend going forward.  I think anything else will not be utilizing the CT to its utmost potential.

 

I'm reserving my judgement untill the whole ruleset is released, mostly to see how we interact with Imperial Fists rules. If BT are indeed IF successors rules-wise, that would be a whole other can of worms.

 

And thaanks for posting here ) I fgured the only way to turn the tide of negativity is to provide positive content, so thumbs up here!

 

Rumors say (which have been pretty much spot on) that there will be a specific ruling in PA2 that states we cannot access IF rules.  So I am running on the assumption that this will be the case.  And of course...I want to be part of the solution, not the problem.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

I didn't see anything about ignoring range for our new warlord trait. Pretty sure it was worded to give a Deny The Witch test with +1, that means standard deny range of 24. Even if that's the case though, this is the ability I was the most excited about. Assuming we get our 4+ deny back, that's 2 ways to shut down psychic, doubling what we had before. Anything else we get to screw with psychic is gravy. It's been a constant source of frustration to me that each psychic phase I only had a 50% chance to deny a single buff or attack. Now I can stop 2, making my enemy have to choose a little more carefully how they do things.

 

Also, an interesting note about the new sword, and our chapter tactic. The sword is good AP, flat damage 3, but meh strength. our chapter tactic doesn't work on vehicles, but it does work on monsters. Methinks I've just been shown my new monster slayer, as giving that to a company/chapter champion is basically free, where as thunder hammers are 40 points. If you want to make it even more reliable you can give him the Champion of Humanity trait from the new codex. True you could do the same with a thunder hammer, but 40 points adds up, and champions come base with power swords anyway.

 

Finally, i like the litany quite a bit, but with Chaplains operating how they do, it seems problematic to use. If you're about to go first it could be devastating, otherwise you're just picking which unit you want to be shot off the table. Hopefully we get some defensive buffs to help our boys stick.

[Medjugorje]

Our Stratagem against psychic powers was better because it was always a 75% thing (reroll included) AND each single model were able to take that stratagem in 24" - so its just the Warlord and +1 sound better then it really is. Simple fact is that lots of sourcers have buffs too, especially if they try to cast an important power and so they just have to be out of range to this one model. Next thing is that we want to deny only if the role of the psyker was successful before... 

 

I hope we get our Stratagem back. It was clearly better.

 

And to be honest - there are so much WL-Traits that are better. Swordmaster and Champion of Humantiy for example are really must takes

 

I´m really sure it will be forbidden to take both superdoctrines. Maybe we get access to special issue wargear ...

 

 

I didn't see anything about ignoring range for our new warlord trait. Pretty sure it was worded to give a Deny The Witch test with +1, that means standard deny range of 24. Even if that's the case though, this is the ability I was the most excited about.

in the same manner as a psyker (should read it again)

I didn't see anything about ignoring range for our new warlord trait. Pretty sure it was worded to give a Deny The Witch test with +1, that means standard deny range of 24. Even if that's the case though, this is the ability I was the most excited about.

in the same manner as a psyker (should read it again)

Edited November 13, 2019 by Medjugorje

[Jacques Corbin]

Well, that relic Sword will be great on a Gravis Marshal.

 

Incursors with Paired Combat Knives granting an additional auto hit on a 6 will pair nicely with Knights of Sigismund, because those hits will also wound. That is how I read it anyways. They have the potential to swing way above their weight class. Also, Incursors are THE squad you want to pop Auspex Scan for when the enemy decides to drop in. Why? Incursors ignore penalties to hit, meaning the fire at full BS, ignoring the -1 imposed by the stratagem.

[Marshal Laeroth]

I didn't see anything about ignoring range for our new warlord trait. Pretty sure it was worded to give a Deny The Witch test with +1, that means standard deny range of 24. 

 

Oversight on the warlord trait wording; my post is corrected.  But if I recall, psychic hoods (for the +1) had a range of 12"...this trait does not have that restriction.  I still stand by my opinion that its a near auto-take.

 

Our Stratagem against psychic powers was better because it was always a 75% thing (reroll included) AND each single model were able to take that stratagem in 24" - so its just the Warlord and +1 sound better then it really is. Simple fact is that lots of sourcers have buffs too, especially if they try to cast an important power and so they just have to be out of range to this one model. Next thing is that we want to deny only if the role of the psyker was successful before... 

 

I hope we get our Stratagem back. It was clearly better.

 

And to be honest - there are so much WL-Traits that are better. Swordmaster and Champion of Humantiy for example are really must takes

 

I´m really sure it will be forbidden to take both superdoctrines. Maybe we get access to special issue wargear ...

 

The stratagem was only a 75% chance a deny if you spent an additional CP to reroll the dice to cast it.  And you had to spend that CP every single turn to use the stratagem.  Now, you only have to have 1 CP to use it (or none if its your main warlord trait...but I'd advise against that because I agree we need to take Swordmaster).  While you are correct in that it was pretty nice to have any BT unit in range of the power to try to nullify, I cannot validate the consistent use of CP for it.  This is a straight buff.  Sure our model may not be in range of whatever is being targeted with a spell, but that is on you as a player to ensure your units are where they need to be to maximize their effectiveness against the most dangerous stuff.  I will take the nearly equivalent chances at denying the spell with our new trait for only 1CP, over spending 5+ CP a game on deny attempts.

Edited November 13, 2019 by Marshal Laeroth

[Acebaur]

Nice write up as usual Laeroth, a couple of corrections though. Litanies are cast on a 3+ giving us a 66% chance not 50. Also you can disembark and charge in 8th as long as the vehicle didn't move. You no longer have to wait a turn before charging. Lastly if the tank is destroyed the unit inside isn't destroyed if surrounded. 

 

I really think that we haven't seen the best rules yet which is really exciting!

[Medjugorje]

you have to use more CP simply because it was better. CLEARLY better. So much tournament lists used one BT unit just to get THIS Stratagem.

 

There are many WL-Traits in other books like "Epitome of piety" but nobody cares. Here its the same.

Belief me. 

Edited November 13, 2019 by Medjugorje

[Acebaur]

you have to use more CP simply because it was better. CLEARLY better. So much tournament lists used one BT unit just to get THIS Stratagem.

 

There are many WL-Traits in other books like "Epitome of piety" but nobody cares. Here its the same.

Belief me. 

 

That's because everyone else already has psykers(except Tau), so why would they take a WL trait when they can just take a psyker instead?

[Jacques Corbin]

So, any predictions on what units are buffed by the new rules thusfar?

 

What about the Pistol and Knife Phobos Castellan, in an Impulsor, with 5 Reivers? I would daresay they would get some work done. Run them up a flank, and rip things to shreds.

 

Or, go heavy, and have a Gravis Marshal with relic Sword in a Repulsor with Aggressors.

 

Would either of those draw fire from a LRC full of Crusaders?

 

Also, Crusader Squads and Doctrines. For the Neophytes, pistol and knife, or shotgun? I mean, that Shotgun is AP-1 on turn 2 during the Tactical Doctrine. If you are in range for it to shoot at S5, watch out! Which is better?

 

Also, though I despise repeating myself, am I right in Paired Combat Knives on Incursors granting 2 hits on a 6, that both automatically wound because of Knights of Sigismund? At AP-1 in the Assault Doctrine, that would be brutal, even before stacking buffs and rerolls. Thoughts?

[MarshalMittermeier]

Nice write up as usual Laeroth, a couple of corrections though. Litanies are cast on a 3+ giving us a 66% chance not 50. Also you can disembark and charge in 8th as long as the vehicle didn't move. You no longer have to wait a turn before charging. Lastly if the tank is destroyed the unit inside isn't destroyed if surrounded. 

 

I really think that we haven't seen the best rules yet which is really exciting!

speaking about exciting, i already glued (between my posts today) a 5-man jump pack vanguard unit, a jump pack master of sanctity, a powersword captain and powersword lieutenant (my HQs were very differently equipped in previous editions). i feel excited to finaly (with the knights of sigismund) have a reason to use swords rather than heavier cc weapons. it is also interesting that the weapons loadout is cheap-ish. so its not even like i over-commit to cc. 

Edited November 13, 2019 by MarshalMittermeier

[MarshalMittermeier]

So, any predictions on what units are buffed by the new rules thusfar?

 

What about the Pistol and Knife Phobos Castellan, in an Impulsor, with 5 Reivers? I would daresay they would get some work done. Run them up a flank, and rip things to shreds.

 

Or, go heavy, and have a Gravis Marshal with relic Sword in a Repulsor with Aggressors.

 

Would either of those draw fire from a LRC full of Crusaders?

 

Also, Crusader Squads and Doctrines. For the Neophytes, pistol and knife, or shotgun? I mean, that Shotgun is AP-1 on turn 2 during the Tactical Doctrine. If you are in range for it to shoot at S5, watch out! Which is better?

 

Also, though I despise repeating myself, am I right in Paired Combat Knives on Incursors granting 2 hits on a 6, that both automatically wound because of Knights of Sigismund? At AP-1 in the Assault Doctrine, that would be brutal, even before stacking buffs and rerolls. Thoughts?

for crusader squads, bp & ccw. better knights of sigismund usage. i still probably will just use multiple 5-man squads though. i think Reivers > incursors point for point. i am curious in general to see Knights of Sigismund + chaplain-buffed Reivers. everyone knows their main problem is killiness due to lack of power weapons; they have the deployment shenanigans to get there without a transport. so our buffs may be just what they need (not sure, but worth a try).

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

Too many quotes clutter up posts so I'll answer without.

 

As of the latest FAQ, when a 6+ to hit doubles the hits only one is counted as a natural 6, the rest are nebulous.

 

If you surround a tank before removing it, units have to jump out before the tank is removed. They have a max range of 3 when they do so, and any models that arrive on the board within 1" of an enemy model are slain. Thus, yes. Dog piling a tank can wipe the units inside.

 

Further, the anti-psycher warlord trait IS extremely good when taken as the 1 CP upgrade on a buffing character for our melee squads. Our old strat denied a power on a 4+, no matter what they rolled. If we get that strat back, + this trait, when the enemy casts on a 5 or a 6 we can choose to use the warlord, and when they get a 12 or 13 we can nope it with the trait. We're getting double the effect and the ability to pick and choose when we spend the cP on our 4+ deny, which is much more potent than just having a 4+ deny. There are too many strong buff powers in the psychic phase to be limited to only 1 attempt. Also, it lets the psychic upgrade trait be a tactical pick, as you can spend that CP to make a different character a better beatstick if the army your facing is psycher light.

Edited November 13, 2019 by Marshal Valkenhayn

[Marshal Laeroth]

Nice write up as usual Laeroth, a couple of corrections though. Litanies are cast on a 3+ giving us a 66% chance not 50. Also you can disembark and charge in 8th as long as the vehicle didn't move. You no longer have to wait a turn before charging. Lastly if the tank is destroyed the unit inside isn't destroyed if surrounded. 

 

I really think that we haven't seen the best rules yet which is really exciting!

 

You are correct on that.  I am not sure why I worded it like that...I was trying to convey that you needed to jump out of your box, then move, then charge (with Impulsors being the exception to the rule, but obviously this stratagem doesn't work with those).  The surrounding comment was assuming you are using the capacity of the LRC...if you are, its highly likely you will suffer significant losses to your unit as they need to be placed outside of 1" of your opponent, but still within the footprint of where the LRC was.  I will expand on that in my original post.

 

And litanies, oops!  You got me there.  Good call outs!

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

Together, we are strong.

[Medjugorje]

 

you have to use more CP simply because it was better. CLEARLY better. So much tournament lists used one BT unit just to get THIS Stratagem.

 

There are many WL-Traits in other books like "Epitome of piety" but nobody cares. Here its the same.

Belief me. 

 

That's because everyone else already has psykers(except Tau), so why would they take a WL trait when they can just take a psyker instead?

 

There are many factions with better Character then psykers - so it is here. Its always better to have a stratagem which can be used if needed. To have a WL trait which increase output is always needed.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Also, though I despise repeating myself, am I right in Paired Combat Knives on Incursors granting 2 hits on a 6, that both automatically wound because of Knights of Sigismund? At AP-1 in the Assault Doctrine, that would be brutal, even before stacking buffs and rerolls. Thoughts?

 

I don't think you are. This is what the current C:SM FAQ Says:

 

Q: If an ability or rule generates an additional hit (e.g. the Siege Masters Chapter Tactic or Whirlwind of Rage), do these additional hits gain any other benefits that would apply to an attack on a hit roll of 6 (e.g. an Infiltrator’s marksman bolt carbine)?

 

A: No. If any additional hits are scored as the result of a particular hit roll, those additional hits are not considered to have been made with any hit roll – they simply hit the target and you must continue the attack sequence for them (i.e. make a wound roll).

Designer’s Note: In the previous iteration of this FAQ, this question was ruled differently. Since that document was published, unintended combinations have come to light (such as some players interpreting that this allowed an infinite hit loop, effectively destroying any unit in the game as soon as a single 6 to hit is rolled – which was obviously never the intent of the rule), as well as that ruling being used as a precedent for similar abilities in other publications. As such, we have changed the answer to this question to ensure a more rewarding experience for all players.

 

[Acebaur]

So, any predictions on what units are buffed by the new rules thusfar?

 

What about the Pistol and Knife Phobos Castellan, in an Impulsor, with 5 Reivers? I would daresay they would get some work done. Run them up a flank, and rip things to shreds.

 

Or, go heavy, and have a Gravis Marshal with relic Sword in a Repulsor with Aggressors.

 

Would either of those draw fire from a LRC full of Crusaders?

 

Also, Crusader Squads and Doctrines. For the Neophytes, pistol and knife, or shotgun? I mean, that Shotgun is AP-1 on turn 2 during the Tactical Doctrine. If you are in range for it to shoot at S5, watch out! Which is better?

 

Also, though I despise repeating myself, am I right in Paired Combat Knives on Incursors granting 2 hits on a 6, that both automatically wound because of Knights of Sigismund? At AP-1 in the Assault Doctrine, that would be brutal, even before stacking buffs and rerolls. Thoughts?

 

Let's keep speculation of what we might get out of this thread please. We are here to discuss how to competitively use the rules that are known. If you want to discuss what we might get, please use the rumors thread. 

[Jacques Corbin]

 

 

So, any predictions on what units are buffed by the new rules thusfar?

 

What about the Pistol and Knife Phobos Castellan, in an Impulsor, with 5 Reivers? I would daresay they would get some work done. Run them up a flank, and rip things to shreds.

 

Or, go heavy, and have a Gravis Marshal with relic Sword in a Repulsor with Aggressors.

 

Would either of those draw fire from a LRC full of Crusaders?

 

Also, Crusader Squads and Doctrines. For the Neophytes, pistol and knife, or shotgun? I mean, that Shotgun is AP-1 on turn 2 during the Tactical Doctrine. If you are in range for it to shoot at S5, watch out! Which is better?

 

Also, though I despise repeating myself, am I right in Paired Combat Knives on Incursors granting 2 hits on a 6, that both automatically wound because of Knights of Sigismund? At AP-1 in the Assault Doctrine, that would be brutal, even before stacking buffs and rerolls. Thoughts?

for crusader squads, bp & ccw. better knights of sigismund usage. i still probably will just use multiple 5-man squads though. i think Reivers > incursors point for point. i am curious in general to see Knights of Sigismund + chaplain-buffed Reivers. everyone knows their main problem is killiness due to lack of power weapons; they have the deployment shenanigans to get there without a transport. so our buffs may be just what they need (not sure, but worth a try).

Could you, or anyone, please elaborate on Reivers > Incursors? From where I am standing, Incursors get a rifle that ignores cover and negative modifiers to hit, as well as a CCW that grants exploding 6s to hit. They benefit from Tactical and Assault Doctrines.

 

Thank you for the correction on stacking exploding 6s. I get it. The 6 to hit grants 2 hits, but only one automatically wounds. Still good though.

 

As for the deployment shenanigans of Reivers, if the rest of your army is in transports, then dropping these guys in early, or using grapnels to outflank, they would be the easiest target, even if dropped onto cover. Grav Chutes are the way to go, given the reroll to charge, I could see MSU Reivers dropping in on turn 2 or 3 being very good. Just hope you are not facing an army that can do interceptor fire at deep strikers, or are trying to charge them into a Tau castle. Also, hopefully you used the first or second turn to clear a drop zone for them that is more than 9" from any enemy units.

[Ado]

Great review Laeroth. I'm currently playing around with different builds and I'm excited by the different combos and potential new strats/relics. I'm thinking of a Smash Marchall, an LRC w crusader squad + Grimaldus, deep striking termies, drop pod of sword brethren + EC, impulsor w the 4+ invuln and a squad of auto-bolter intercessors and primaris chaplain. For some more shooty stuff, a whirlwind is cheap at 65 points and can sit in backfield and pluck wounds off the enemy, a twin lascannon on a Chaplain dread, and a unit of grav-cannon centurions. Finish off with another small unit of bolter toting intercessors. (all of this comes in at 1999 points with a battalion, a spearhead detachment and a sword brethen detachment = 9CP). For my local meta I think this gives me a balanced force that can take advantage of each of the doctrines and then really making the most of the assault doctrine when we get there. All of this is subject to change when we get all the rules though!!

[Jacques Corbin]

Nice. Only thing I would change is Thunderfire Cannon instead of Whirlwind. Tremor Shells is gold.

 

Impulsor with the 4++ is very survivable, especially if there are scarier tanks on the table.

[Marshal Laeroth]

 

So, any predictions on what units are buffed by the new rules thusfar?

 

What about the Pistol and Knife Phobos Castellan, in an Impulsor, with 5 Reivers? I would daresay they would get some work done. Run them up a flank, and rip things to shreds.

 

Or, go heavy, and have a Gravis Marshal with relic Sword in a Repulsor with Aggressors.

 

Would either of those draw fire from a LRC full of Crusaders?

 

Also, Crusader Squads and Doctrines. For the Neophytes, pistol and knife, or shotgun? I mean, that Shotgun is AP-1 on turn 2 during the Tactical Doctrine. If you are in range for it to shoot at S5, watch out! Which is better?

 

Also, though I despise repeating myself, am I right in Paired Combat Knives on Incursors granting 2 hits on a 6, that both automatically wound because of Knights of Sigismund? At AP-1 in the Assault Doctrine, that would be brutal, even before stacking buffs and rerolls. Thoughts?

for crusader squads, bp & ccw. better knights of sigismund usage. i still probably will just use multiple 5-man squads though. i think Reivers > incursors point for point. i am curious in general to see Knights of Sigismund + chaplain-buffed Reivers. everyone knows their main problem is killiness due to lack of power weapons; they have the deployment shenanigans to get there without a transport. so our buffs may be just what they need (not sure, but worth a try).

 

 

Well, we're looking at 7.78 GEQ/3.75 MEQ dead if you have a standard 5-man unit on the charge during Assault Doctrine.  This is not counting any other litanies or buffs.  If you add in the pistol shots prior to charging, you're getting an additional 2.22 GEQ/1.11 MEQ kills on average.  So if your target is standard sized squads, Knights of Sigismund pushes us to the promised land into making Reivers viable.  And that is not even counting any buffs or stratagems.  If you're getting into your opponents lines, you're likely in range to use their grenades and/or leadership debuffs on your opponent as well.  Plus, they have the durability to potentially survive a round of combat against something you want to tie-up in combat with our rumored stratagem; if they die, so what.  We only lost 90 points.

 

 

 

So, any predictions on what units are buffed by the new rules thusfar?

 

What about the Pistol and Knife Phobos Castellan, in an Impulsor, with 5 Reivers? I would daresay they would get some work done. Run them up a flank, and rip things to shreds.

 

Or, go heavy, and have a Gravis Marshal with relic Sword in a Repulsor with Aggressors.

 

Would either of those draw fire from a LRC full of Crusaders?

 

Also, Crusader Squads and Doctrines. For the Neophytes, pistol and knife, or shotgun? I mean, that Shotgun is AP-1 on turn 2 during the Tactical Doctrine. If you are in range for it to shoot at S5, watch out! Which is better?

 

Also, though I despise repeating myself, am I right in Paired Combat Knives on Incursors granting 2 hits on a 6, that both automatically wound because of Knights of Sigismund? At AP-1 in the Assault Doctrine, that would be brutal, even before stacking buffs and rerolls. Thoughts?

for crusader squads, bp & ccw. better knights of sigismund usage. i still probably will just use multiple 5-man squads though. i think Reivers > incursors point for point. i am curious in general to see Knights of Sigismund + chaplain-buffed Reivers. everyone knows their main problem is killiness due to lack of power weapons; they have the deployment shenanigans to get there without a transport. so our buffs may be just what they need (not sure, but worth a try).

Could you, or anyone, please elaborate on Reivers > Incursors? From where I am standing, Incursors get a rifle that ignores cover and negative modifiers to hit, as well as a CCW that grants exploding 6s to hit. They benefit from Tactical and Assault Doctrines.

 

Its really an apples and oranges comparison, as one is a troop and the other is elites.  But if you are comparing their abilities in close combat...I will say that I am highly disappointed that Incursors do not have an additional attack with their paired combat knives and rely on their proc.  Reivers do have an additional attack automatically, so they are strickly better.  When we are in Assault Doctrine, the benefits for Incursor's proc are also minimal (outside of it working on vehicles still) with our CT due to the FAQ.  But their Multi-Spectrum Array is interesting, as is their Occulus bolt carbines.

[Jacques Corbin]

I agree. I love those Occulus Bolt Carbines! Pop Auspex Scan when something drops in, and you fire at full BS. Also, if you are in Tactical Doctrine, those shots are at AP-1, which is very good.

 

Also, Alatoic Eldar are still a thing. They are also a nice counter for a Tau player trying to infest the midfield with stealth suits. They also rip the stealth drones off a Ghostkeel nicely, and Shadowsun is in big trouble if nothing can screen for her.