Competitive Black Templars -- PA2

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

The list I've thrown together is as follows:

 

 

Battalion:

Grimaldus: (5+ FNP, +1 attack)

Lieutenant with power axe, 4+ invuln relic

 

20 man crusader squad all with chainswords

5 man crusader squad with lascannon and storm bolter

5 man crusader squad with lascannon and storm bolter

 

 

Vanguard 1:

Chaplain on Bike, crusader's helm  (2+ charge litany, +1 advance and charge warlord trait)

 

10 vanguard vets with SS and PS, melta bombs, sergeant relic blade

venerable dreadnought with storm bolter/CC and twin lascannon

venerable dreadnought with storm bolter/CC and twin lascannon

 

 

Vanguard 2:

Helbrecht

Emperor's Champion

 

5 company vets with SS and PS, sergeant has power fist

5 company vets with SS and PS, sergeant has power fist

5 company vets with SS and PS, sergeant has power fist

 

LRC with multi melta

 

 

CP: 10(8)

-1 for extra relic

-1 for sword Brother detachment

 

 

This list isn't competitive. Crusaders are an extra point over tacticals for no gain, the LRC is a bad unit that could be replaced by drop pods, I don't have nearly enough anti tank for today's meta. However, for the casual sorts at my LGS this should be a fun little 2,000 points that will let me test out the rules and see how it all meshes together.

[Kilamandaros]

 

4++ Relic on a Phobos Marshal and 60 Scouts and 3 Invictor Suits in front of the enemy^^

 

There are a few lists which can be tested I think so far.

Weren't you the one saying the other day that Phobos Armour wasn't very Templar...? (30 scouts!)

 

 

Those neophytes have to learn somehow! Send them in!

 

If they're lucky we'll give them some ammo for their pistols...

[Ciler]

I don't have the newest C:SM, is it reasonable to assume that company vets do NOT get jump packs ?

 

I was trying to figure if there may be some use out of the vigilus detachment potentially ? 2A base, 3 on charge, 4 with Litany "Fire of devotion". 5A with a chainsword and 6A with two. Problem is getting them into the fray because litanies are said at the beginning of the battle round (not necessarily our turn), and presumably can't target a unit that's tucked in a LRC. Jump packs would be good but are presumably not available. Vanguard vets would work in that regard but do not get the +1A from vigilus...

[Medjugorje]

 

4++ Relic on a Phobos Marshal and 60 Scouts and 3 Invictor Suits in front of the enemy^^

 

There are a few lists which can be tested I think so far.

Weren't you the one saying the other day that Phobos Armour wasn't very Templar...? (30 scouts!)

 

I dont talk about fluff. Here is COMPETITIVE

[Malekor]

Seems our army will be CP hungry. What do you think about new Inquisition WD rules?.

 

For the cost of 5 neophytes you can pick one hordo xenos inquisitor who doesn't prevent you to use doctrines.

 

He can cast and deny 1 physic power and can get for 1 cp the WT of the ordo Xenos: Each time your opponent uses an stratagem roll  a dice and on a 5+ you get 1 CP.

 

Or u can pick coteaz (9 scouts). He can cast 3 powers (One of them 5++ to one infantry or biker unit) and deny 2. Can make your opponent spend 1 additional CP on a stratagem he attemps to use one per battle and he is decent at melee (4 str 6 ap -3 dmg 3 attacks)

 

Thoughs?

 

I forgot to mention your units within 6" of any of them can use his Ld (10)

Edited November 17, 2019 by Malekor

[Medjugorje]

I think it is a thing. And Inquisitors can drive with Primaris and Firstborn

[AlmightyWalrus]

What about Ironclad Dreadnoughts? Previously their main limitation has been the difficulty of getting them in to combat - with our new Warlord Trait/Litany and a Lucius Pod, getting an Ironclad into combat with something big should be doable, right?

[Medjugorje]

I think Invictor are so much better in this case. But if you want to Play a Ironclad  -  its not like wasted Points. But I think we should talk about very good things here. Things to win tournaments - ETC or ITC Level.

[gang_chong]

Now, what do you think of Troop choice? As our Crusader Squad has almost same wargear option as Tactical Squad, honestly I have used many so called "Faux-Devi" squad, so Plasma gun/Combi-Plasma/Plasma cannon (or Grav cannon) and two boltgun. That was about 100 points, good firepower to get rid of MEQs.

 

Well, now that time has gone, so which options are you considering for Troop choice?

[Acebaur]

Now, what do you think of Troop choice? As our Crusader Squad has almost same wargear option as Tactical Squad, honestly I have used many so called "Faux-Devi" squad, so Plasma gun/Combi-Plasma/Plasma cannon (or Grav cannon) and two boltgun. That was about 100 points, good firepower to get rid of MEQs.

 

Well, now that time has gone, so which options are you considering for Troop choice?

 

Crusaders are still good, you can have cheap wounds with neophytes that hit and wound like Initiates and now have Paired Combatants as well. Intercessors are also great backfield objective holders and can pump out a surprising amount of attacks themselves

[redmapa]

I would still take Crusaders over Tacticals,  a 10 man squad is cheaper and regardless of size they can take 2 power weapons and have the access to Drop Pods which mean they have a lot more alpha strike potential than Intercessors and due to them being relatively cheap they can be thrown into the melee to tie units up. 

[gang_chong]

 

Now, what do you think of Troop choice? As our Crusader Squad has almost same wargear option as Tactical Squad, honestly I have used many so called "Faux-Devi" squad, so Plasma gun/Combi-Plasma/Plasma cannon (or Grav cannon) and two boltgun. That was about 100 points, good firepower to get rid of MEQs.

 

Well, now that time has gone, so which options are you considering for Troop choice?

 

Crusaders are still good, you can have cheap wounds with neophytes that hit and wound like Initiates and now have Paired Combatants as well. Intercessors are also great backfield objective holders and can pump out a surprising amount of attacks themselves

 

 

Yes, Neophytes are cheaper than Initiates, so if I take 5 Initiates and 5 Neophytes, then the points is same as 10 men Tactical squad, and a half of unit has worse armour.

But regardless of the point bull:cuss, I will continue to use Plasma crusader squad anyway, the ZEAL has in me. 

 

And as you said, now we have more incentives on chain sword-hoard Crusader squad. Right now I'm thinking of put them in Rhino like I did in 7th ed.

Infiltrators are also solid choice, yes they are expensive but still can do many things like blocking deep strike charge.

[Champion Rawne]

I don't have the newest C:SM, is it reasonable to assume that company vets do NOT get jump packs ?

 

I was trying to figure if there may be some use out of the vigilus detachment potentially ? 2A base, 3 on charge, 4 with Litany "Fire of devotion". 5A with a chainsword and 6A with two. Problem is getting them into the fray because litanies are said at the beginning of the battle round (not necessarily our turn), and presumably can't target a unit that's tucked in a LRC. Jump packs would be good but are presumably not available. Vanguard vets would work in that regard but do not get the +1A from vigilus...

Company vets can't take jump packs.  They can take bikes but I think that's an index unit so I'm not sure if it can benefit from the vigilus stuff.  

[SydonianDragoon404]

They can definitely benefit because they have the correct keywords, but they are extremely expensive units. 

[Medjugorje]

I would still take Crusaders over Tacticals,  a 10 man squad is cheaper and regardless of size they can take 2 power weapons and have the access to Drop Pods which mean they have a lot more alpha strike potential than Intercessors and due to them being relatively cheap they can be thrown into the melee to tie units up. 

and all buffs are strictly for Close combat so far. And Crusadersquads can do it better.... now melee weapons in crusader squads are worth it. I dont know if they can survive this Meta but it has potential.

 

@gang_chong

 

Crusadersquad is still a Thing:

 

- Sword Brother and Initate with Meleeweapons, 3 Initate with Chainsword as small unit and you can fill it with up to 5 Scouts. If you want them bigger (for LRC) or Black Tide i would prefer 10 Marines/10 Scouts or 8 Marines/8 Scouts

 

- shooty variant: take a tactical squad - 5 Man with combi-Plasma and Plasma.

 

- Scouts used to be good and now they are even better.

Edited November 18, 2019 by Medjugorje

[Marshal Vespasian]

Power sword on initiates and sword brother, 3 chainswords, 4 scouts go into a rhino with a character and are actually pretty killy because of the buffs peovided by out heroes. Especially as out hqs are VERY killy.

I feel like Crusader squads are there to screen for our Chars, so they can do the damage in melee. Also 30 melee attacks dont hurt either.

 

Concerning an ironclad, because I REALLY want to make that guy work.

Helbrecht, 2 5 man sword and Board Veterans, an ironclad and an LT in a gunship? How about that? Should be able to screw with pretty much anything it comes across. Backed up by intercessors and tac squads with lascannons to Film two batallions. Maybe some more Dreads for fire Support or some Termies / vanguard vets for reinforcements turn 3.

Edited November 18, 2019 by Marshal Vespasian

[Smirnov]

Does anyone have full rules on their hands? I've watched reviews, but they are unclear whether we can use IF stuff (yeah, yeah, I'm with my same old tune)

[a_typical_hero]

Hey everybody!

 

What are your thoughts on Primaris only lists with these new rules?

 

I was thinking about a 30 Veteran Intercessors blob (3x10) with assault bolt guns, a Chief Apothecary with Selfless Healer + a Chaplain with Litany of Divine Protection  as the core.

 

You would put 5++ on any of the three Veteran Intercessor squads if you go first and afterwards on the squad with the most casualties. The apothecary would heal up lost wounds / models. Depending on distance on turn 2 or 3 the squads would break up and go for individual targets.

 

For the frontline I'd pack Invictus Warsuits for turn 1 or 2 charges.

 

Sprinkled with Smashcaptains (not Primaris, I know. But easily enough substituted with a Primaris model) and more shooty elements for dealing with harder targets.

Edited November 18, 2019 by a_typical_hero

[Acebaur]

Does anyone have full rules on their hands? I've watched reviews, but they are unclear whether we can use IF stuff (yeah, yeah, I'm with my same old tune)

There is currently nothing in the book that restricts is from also using the IF successor rules.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

There's an email from GW on the FB group saying you can't use IF, but it references an exclusion which isn't in either book? (And doesn't even make sense in relation to the CF)

[AlmightyWalrus]

A 10-man unit of Intercessors (possibly Veterans if you feel like it) sounds like it'd be a good idea to shoot some chaff with turn 1. You can move up, spend 3 CP and get 40 S4 AP-1 shots up to 30" away and since you've not moved like mad you should still be in range of buff characters.

 

What's people's thoughts on normal Bike squads? They seem pretty decent; they're fast, with 14" movement, and a min squad with a Storm Bolter is less than 80 points and pumping out 16 shots with a 38" threat radius. Should be able to help us thin out screens to allow some nasties to come in from Deep Strike.

[Marshal Vespasian]

I run a three bike unit with meltas in smaller games, they can really pull double duty for cleaning chaff and threatening armour. Also once they have blasted a bunch of geqs from the table they isually attract a lot of fire Power which they can Deal with quite okay being t5 and all

[Smirnov]

 

Does anyone have full rules on their hands? I've watched reviews, but they are unclear whether we can use IF stuff (yeah, yeah, I'm with my same old tune)

There is currently nothing in the book that restricts is from also using the IF successor rules.

 

Just as I expected, they either forgot or let it slide. I think GW will faq it at some point, but right now Templars are downright terrifying with two doctrines. Knigts of Sigismund doesn't work against vehicles, but it's ok because with Legacy of Dorn there will be no vehicles left on the table by turn 3. Probably shouldn't get too attached to it because of said faq, but for the moment one can dream. That's actually how I always wanted to play Templars - a mix of heavy firepower and melee

[Palmu]

The more I think about it, the nastier the +4 Aegis relic gets. The meme idea of plopping down a large amount of Scouts with 3 Invictors in front of the enemy at the beginning of a match, all shielded by a +4 Invulnerable for an entire turn, doesn't sound exactly terrible.

 

Either as an alpha strike to tie the enemy down or as a massive distraction, I can see a lot of value in it, especially since all of a sudden our Scouts are capable of punching well above their weight class.

 

And the Riposte stratagem actually makes it unwise for an opponent to charge a counter-punch unit into them.

 

30 scouts with no upgrades comes up to a measly 330 points, and can be taken up either as 3x10 or 6x5 if you want to just fill two Brigades, with 3 Invictors that are a smart buy anyway, and either a Phobos captain or lieutenant to tie the units together, it's not a prohibitively expensive set-up, only problem is the centralization of force that it calls for.

 

Add Frontline Commander to taste, or just bring Helbrecht along as well for that +1 Strength and murder people with SCOUTS.

[Smirnov]

A question about Vicious Reposte. It says 'whenever rolls 1'. Does it mean that it counts even if the 1 is later re-rolled, as it was rolled at some point in the process?