Competitive Black Templars -- PA2

[SydonianDragoon404]

Here's what I'm thinking- 

 

The most aggressive primaris CC unit we have is Incursors, they can start 9'' away from enemy deployment. If you pair them with a Phobos Captain that has the Crusader helm and +1 to advance and charge rolls, enemy units literally cannot escape that charge as long as you roll average on your advance roll. 

 

Deploy 9'' away, get buffed by the crusader helm to go into combat doctrine, move 6, advance 4, charge 2d6 +1 re rolling. 

 

Could double up on the nasty by have a 10 man scout squad accompany them in as well to be another threat. 

 

I would of course prefer to do this with intercessor vets or something, but they have to deploy from the deployment zone line. Against a gunline army that stays back, they wouldn't have to movement to make it. 

[Jacques Corbin]

Here's what I'm thinking-

 

The most aggressive primaris CC unit we have is Incursors, they can start 9'' away from enemy deployment. If you pair them with a Phobos Captain that has the Crusader helm and +1 to advance and charge rolls, enemy units literally cannot escape that charge as long as you roll average on your advance roll.

 

Deploy 9'' away, get buffed by the crusader helm to go into combat doctrine, move 6, advance 4, charge 2d6 +1 re rolling.

 

Could double up on the nasty by have a 10 man scout squad accompany them in as well to be another threat.

 

I would of course prefer to do this with intercessor vets or something, but they have to deploy from the deployment zone line. Against a gunline army that stays back, they wouldn't have to movement to make it.

Ok, nice! Maybe add Invictor Warsuits to taste, as they benefit from Concealed Positions as well. Then, bring in the Intercessors, and/or maybe Reivers, in Impulsors. The Impulsor is fast, and as long as it did not advance, they can disembark after it moves. My mind goes to a layered offensive, starting with Vanguard Marines, then a mechanized force that gets heavier and heavier as it rolls (hovers) in. Keep the Primaris and Phobos in the Impulsors, saving the Repulsor for the Gravis.

[Marshal Reinhard]

... and forgeworld templar stuff.

 

Would love to. Where is it? 90% of it has been discontinued. Only the storm shields are left. Gone is the venerable dread, the shoulder pads, the etched brass, the transfers, and the various vehicle doors.

[Ciler]

Would love to. Where is it? 90% of it has been discontinued. Only the storm shields are left. Gone is the venerable dread, the shoulder pads, the etched brass, the transfers, and the various vehicle doors.

I expect they mean this : https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/Imperial-Fists-Legion-Templar-Brethren-Upgrade-Set

[Malekor]

 

Would love to. Where is it? 90% of it has been discontinued. Only the storm shields are left. Gone is the venerable dread, the shoulder pads, the etched brass, the transfers, and the various vehicle doors.

I expect they mean this : https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/Imperial-Fists-Legion-Templar-Brethren-Upgrade-Set

Don't think so. It's firstbone size but hey, maybe they don't even know it xD Edited November 19, 2019 by Malekor

[Palmu]

Oh, just noticed that characters can get multiple Warlord Traits now, with Hero of the Chapter and Field Commander being stackable. New ways to make Marshall Law even killier are always welcome, I guess I'll be adding Champion of Humanity to him from now on. Someone needs to punish those pesky Imperial Knight characters.

[MegaVolt87]

Seems old marine BT's are back to deathstars. Grim w/ foot vanguard storm shields + melee weapons to taste and transport, with supporting storm shield company vets etc. 

[Palmu]

Why bother with going on foot when drop pods are available? Never spend a second longer on the open field than you ABSOLUTELY have to! Core tenet of successful melee armies.

[Malekor]

A list I have been thinking of:

 

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [45 PL, -2CP, 808pts] ++

 

+ No Force Org Slot +

 

**Chapter Selection**: Black Templars, Imperial Fists Successor

 

+ HQ +

 

Chaplain Grimaldus [6 PL, 90pts]: 1. Litany of Faith, Litany of Hate

 

Chapter Master [5 PL, -2CP, 89pts]: Power axe, Storm shield, Stratagem: Chapter Master, The Crusader's Helm (SM2018), Warlord

 

+ Troops +

 

Scout Squad [4 PL, 55pts]

. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

. 4x Scout w/Boltgun

 

Scout Squad [4 PL, 55pts]

. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

. 4x Scout w/Boltgun

 

Scout Squad [4 PL, 55pts]

. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

. 4x Scout w/Boltgun

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Devastator Squad [6 PL, 150pts]: Armorium Cherub

. Space Marine Sergeant: Chainsword

. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon and grav-amp

. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon and grav-amp

. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon and grav-amp

. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Grav-cannon and grav-amp

 

Thunderfire Cannon [4 PL, 92pts]

. Techmarine Gunner

. . Servo-harness: Flamer, Plasma cutter

 

Thunderfire Cannon [4 PL, 92pts]

. Techmarine Gunner

. . Servo-harness: Flamer, Plasma cutter

 

+ Dedicated Transport +

 

Drop Pod [4 PL, 65pts]: Storm bolter

 

Drop Pod [4 PL, 65pts]: Storm bolter

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [24 PL, 432pts] ++

 

+ No Force Org Slot +

 

**Chapter Selection**: Black Templars, Imperial Fists Successor

 

+ HQ +

 

Captain in Phobos Armour [5 PL, 99pts]: Camo cloak, Master-crafted instigator bolt carbine

 

The Emperor's Champion [4 PL, 75pts]

 

+ Troops +

 

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 86pts]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, Bolt rifle

. 4x Intercessor

. Intercessor Sergeant

 

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 86pts]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, Bolt rifle

. 4x Intercessor

. Intercessor Sergeant

 

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 86pts]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, Bolt rifle

. 4x Intercessor

. Intercessor Sergeant

 

++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [40 PL, -1CP, 760pts] ++

 

+ No Force Org Slot +

 

**Chapter Selection**: Black Templars, Imperial Fists Successor

 

Specialist Detachment [-1CP]: Black Templars Sword Bretheren

 

+ HQ +

 

Captain [6 PL, 143pts]: Jump Pack, Storm shield, Thunder hammer

 

+ Elites +

 

Company Veterans [8 PL, 112pts]

. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Storm bolter

. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Storm bolter

. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Storm bolter

. Space Marine Veteran: Storm bolter, Thunder hammer

. Veteran Sergeant: Storm bolter, Thunder hammer

 

Company Veterans [8 PL, 112pts]

. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Storm bolter

. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Storm bolter

. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Storm bolter

. Space Marine Veteran: Storm bolter, Thunder hammer

. Veteran Sergeant: Storm bolter, Thunder hammer

 

Invictor Tactical Warsuit [6 PL, 131pts]: Fragstorm Grenade Launcher, Heavy bolter, Incendium cannon, 2x Ironhail Heavy Stubber

 

Invictor Tactical Warsuit [6 PL, 131pts]: Fragstorm Grenade Launcher, Heavy bolter, Incendium cannon, 2x Ironhail Heavy Stubber

 

Invictor Tactical Warsuit [6 PL, 131pts]: Fragstorm Grenade Launcher, Heavy bolter, Incendium cannon, 2x Ironhail Heavy Stubber

 

++ Total: [109 PL, -3CP, 2,000pts] ++

 

 

14 CP-> -1: Extra relic to Phobos captain (The 4++ aura)

-1 extra WT (Foot captain crusader helm the +1 charge and smash captain vigilus WT)

-1 Vigilus detachment

-2 chapter master

 

You begin the game with 9 CP

Edited November 19, 2019 by Malekor

[Brother Talarian]

Having a 10 man scout squad isn’t bad, can even equip the sgt with some tasty weapons.

 

My problem is more that they look pretty awful. I’m thinking I’ll have to grease stuff some tabards and add some bling to make them look cool.

 

My fluff would be an advanced unit of squires laying a trap to prove to th knights that they have what it takes.

 

You only go from a 3+ to a 4+ but you gain the ability of re-rolling failed wounds. And deploying 9” away from enemy.... actually... they’re pretty damn strong haha

[MegaVolt87]

Why bother with going on foot when drop pods are available? Never spend a second longer on the open field than you ABSOLUTELY have to! Core tenet of successful melee armies.

 

Because infiltrators exist and probably more units will show up for other factions that disrupt deep strike will likely turn up in the future. I said nothing about footslogging that stuff, I mentioned transports going via ground. Odds are good also for infiltrators getting a pts drop this CA or next year in CA. 

[Palmu]

Being in a transport is as good as slogging it out, things don't survive for long these days.

 

A good soft counter to infiltrator types is to have a suitably big infiltrator units of your own and use them to clear a 'landing zone' for any DS arrivals by going into a large enough formation. And that's something we do well to begin with.

 

Pretty feasible to have 50% of units in deepstrike and 50% in Concealed Positions, actually.

[Marshal Vespasian]

I am unsure about that amount of deepstrikers. Sure Helbrecht as a warlord / the warlord trait in General are pretty good. But it's only one 6''bubble. We can cram two drop pods into that, which could be 10 crusaders and 9 company vets or something like that or deepstriken a character and a squad of terminators to charge.

 

I could envision a two pronged deepstrike. One led by a bike Chaplain, one by helbrecht/someone else with the wl trait. Let the pods arrive turn 1 and tie up crzcial units. Turn two sees terminators/vanguard Veterans arrive. The question is how you'll use someone like grimaldus and the EC with a list like that? Do we just put grimaldus, Helbrecht, the EC and an apothecard and an ancient into one pod with 5 Veterans and 10 Veterans into a second pod?

How many points does that leave for objectives grabbers and fire Support?

[Brother Talarian]

I’ve been toying with a similar idea:

 

HQ:

Grim

EC

Halbrecht

Chap with JP

 

x3 (10) scouts with PP and Power sword on Sgt

 

x3 (4) Company Vts with SB PW

x1 (10) VV with PF and SS (relic blade on sgt) and JP

 

x5 Grav defs

 

x2 pods

 

Idea is a quick first strike with two pods filled with all named characters, company vets and devs.

 

Ideally scouts are sprinkled in as well to maybe benefit from +1 WLT

 

VV and jump chap march up the field as the second wave.

Comes out to about 1500 pts, have some wiggle room to play with

 

I made a similar list with the inclusion of two big blobs marching up the field as well. Grim would be here instead of pods so he can chant two litanies and be a boss. Maybe even another chaplain.

 

Thinking on this, tide could be fun, might not be the place to post but a few blobs with several chaplains chanting their glory alongside Halbrecht.

 

That.... could be awesome.

Edited November 20, 2019 by Brother Talarian

[Ciler]

Problem with pods is that they give an easy safe zone to an opponent. All he has to do is charge your pod and not destroy it and his unit can't be shot.

[Palmu]

Safe zone? More like 'easy target'. 

[Ciler]

Easy target for what, you can't shoot them... DO you have units to spare to go deal with a minor threat in your midfield ?

[Marshal Laeroth]

Here's what I'm thinking- 

 

The most aggressive primaris CC unit we have is Incursors, they can start 9'' away from enemy deployment. If you pair them with a Phobos Captain that has the Crusader helm and +1 to advance and charge rolls, enemy units literally cannot escape that charge as long as you roll average on your advance roll. 

 

Deploy 9'' away, get buffed by the crusader helm to go into combat doctrine, move 6, advance 4, charge 2d6 +1 re rolling. 

 

Could double up on the nasty by have a 10 man scout squad accompany them in as well to be another threat. 

 

I would of course prefer to do this with intercessor vets or something, but they have to deploy from the deployment zone line. Against a gunline army that stays back, they wouldn't have to movement to make it. 

 

Incidentally, Reivers perform better than Incursors do by a significant margin.  An additional attack is always better than a 6+ auto wound.  However, Concealed Positions changes the game here....starting 9" away from the opponent units/deployment zone makes Incursors a threat turn one.  Where reivers are coming on turn two and beyond.

 

Alternatively, as mentioned, scouts make for very effective close combat units with the use of the stratagem.  Even better than both Reivers and Incursors, despite only have 3 attacks on the charge.  10-man squads of scouts are both relatively cheap and can put out a lot of wounds (~5 dead MEQ on the charge), plus have Concealed Positions...which is awesome.

 

 

Problem with pods is that they give an easy safe zone to an opponent. All he has to do is charge your pod and not destroy it and his unit can't be shot.

 

Yes, but we are now more focused as a close combat army...so...you'll likely have a unit close by to charge said enemy unit.  In addition, you probably care less about shooting them now with the shift in how we're building our armies.

[Palmu]

Easy target for what, you can't shoot them... DO you have units to spare to go deal with a minor threat in your midfield ?If

Assumably yes, given that my murdersquads would have disembarked from those drop-pods and either killed everything around them or died, in which case a small threat in my midfield is a moot point anyway as I have already lost. 

 

And I'm not still getting over the fact that all of a sudden freaking SCOUTS are our most high-potential turn 1 close combat unit. They can benefit from any auras or start-of-round abilities and can override all the issues of going first due to the advance-charge stratagem, and then have one of the most powerful cc stratagems available in the game. 

 

SCOUTS. It's silly, and also going to often be pretty humiliating for many opponents.

 

I suppose this is a natural evolution from the old "BT scouts as allies" trick in imperial soup lists. 

[Smirnov]

So you suggest we go a mix of infiltrators and drop pods? What about long range support? Or just get in their face as soon as possible with everything?

[Link2edition]

Problem with pods is that they give an easy safe zone to an opponent. All he has to do is charge your pod and not destroy it and his unit can't be shot.

I fill out my character pods with swordbretheren out of vigilus.

 

People don't use my pods to avoid shooting, because you can't seek safety in assault if it kills you

 

I normally dropped with 4-5 characters, two units of sword bros (stormbolter chainsword) and two units of devs.

 

Drop turn 1, shoot, charge. Got 2nd in a local RTT doing that.

Edited November 20, 2019 by Link2edition

[Palmu]

So you suggest we go a mix of infiltrators and drop pods? What about long range support? Or just get in their face as soon as possible with everything?

That was more "we could do this and it could actually work" than "this is a great idea and we should do it" sort of thing. There's a lot of ways that can go wrong, and while overloading one phase of the game is usually a good idea, just putting all your eggs in one basket really isn't. 

 

Spamming scouts and just going balls to the walls isn't actually a great idea unless you can be mostly assured that you likely get the first turn, otherwise it's a lot of possible waste. A single 10-strong unit certainly seems worth it, though. Either it can be pushed up the opponents nozzle on turn one to either kill things or tie them down, or it can be hidden somewhere without feeling like it's useless. 

 

Though putting half your army into deepstrike really isn't a bad idea. 

[Medjugorje]

so for now I played my first game (a lore game but against a good tournament player who know how to play) My list was A Chaplain with Jump pack, Grim, Helbrecht, Emperors champion, Lieutenant with 4++ Relic, 10 Vanugards (Storm shielsd 3x hammer and 7x chainsword) and a lot of crusaders and scouts. 

 

His list was about Abbaddon, 2 Lord Discordant (the very bad vigilus ones) and daemon Prince + Sourcerer + bunch of chaos space marines with Lascannons and Plasma.

 

Very strong: 5++ lithany and +1 attacks from grimaldus. And the reroll wound stratagem for scouts ( without rerolling hits they hurt Abbaddon very hard and he lost 4 wounds. The Stratagem to charge after advancing is always a good thing.  I really like to play with our new guys. Cant wait to test  a more competitve list (sunday).

[Marshal Laeroth]

 

So you suggest we go a mix of infiltrators and drop pods? What about long range support? Or just get in their face as soon as possible with everything?

That was more "we could do this and it could actually work" than "this is a great idea and we should do it" sort of thing. There's a lot of ways that can go wrong, and while overloading one phase of the game is usually a good idea, just putting all your eggs in one basket really isn't. 

 

Spamming scouts and just going balls to the walls isn't actually a great idea unless you can be mostly assured that you likely get the first turn, otherwise it's a lot of possible waste. A single 10-strong unit certainly seems worth it, though. Either it can be pushed up the opponents nozzle on turn one to either kill things or tie them down, or it can be hidden somewhere without feeling like it's useless. 

 

Though putting half your army into deepstrike really isn't a bad idea. 

 

 

What's great with our rules is that we have so many options now on the direction of our lists.  We can pull of mech, footslogging, deep strike, concealed positions...all effective ways to get into combat, where we now are reasonably effective.  Hell, even our basic scouts do well with our new stratagem.  While I don't necessarily think you need to long range firepower in a list, you DO have to have a way to deal with multiple types of threats in a list (i.e. vehicles, fliers, monsters, etc).

 

One of the newest archetypes I've been playing with since the release of Codex: SM v8.5 is what I call "Peak-A-Boo!" Templars.  And it utilizes that 50/50 list building formula.  Half of my list is Concealed Positions, the other is Deep Striking.  This has allowed me to completely control the deployment portion of the game.  Opponents deploy cautiously due to my deep strike capabilities, but they also do not deploy nearly as aggressive due to the sheer number of concealed position units I will be setting up after they deploy.  It essentially allows me to react to their deployment anyway I choose.  It has worked exceedingly well so far...but again, as with many envelop pushing archetypes the BT can use...some of our brethren don't like it due to its "sneak" factor.

[Palmu]

I do applaud any and all who find success with 'classic' methods, but adaptation is a must if one wants to win reliably. I view that I hold to the tenets of the chapter well enough by getting into combat and putting my chainswords where the sun doesn't shine, and don't particularly care about what methods I must use to get there.