Competitive Black Templars -- PA2

[Medjugorje]

I already have PA2. And The Master of sanctinity (if we take him instead of Grimaldus) can have another lithany of battle - so we can choose one lithany from our table (5+++) AND canticle of hate. In addition we can take the WL-Trait to reroll the dice for lithanies. If we take our relic  (2 dice for lithanies) and this WL-Trait we have a propability for 98.77 percent to get our lithany threw

[Acebaur]

I already have PA2. And The Master of sanctinity (if we take him instead of Grimaldus) can have another lithany of battle - so we can choose one lithany from our table (5+++) AND canticle of hate. In addition we can take the WL-Trait to reroll the dice for lithanies. If we take our relic  (2 dice for lithanies) and this WL-Trait we have a propability for 98.77 percent to get our lithany threw

 

I thought the litanies had to be from the same table?

[Sword Brother Adelard]

That's an expensive distraction. Though actually the real problem of the LRC isn't so much if it'll get blown up, but whether your oponent is smart enough to tarpit it, which in amny ways is even worse.

This is the biggest problem. They have to be in close to be effective, at which point they get charged.

 

At least with a Raven or Repulsor, you can pull back and unleash hell.

[Palmu]

I already have PA2. And The Master of sanctinity (if we take him instead of Grimaldus) can have another lithany of battle - so we can choose one lithany from our table (5+++) AND canticle of hate. In addition we can take the WL-Trait to reroll the dice for lithanies. If we take our relic  (2 dice for lithanies) and this WL-Trait we have a propability for 98.77 percent to get our lithany threw

I think that's impossible, the wording on the litanies says you can use litanies of the devout INSTEAD of litanies of battle, so the best combination is impossible. 

[Hymnblade]

Can an MoS use the same litany twice? None of the reviews seem to say either way that I've seen.

[Link2edition]

Can an MoS use the same litany twice? None of the reviews seem to say either way that I've seen.

The litany rules say you can't chant a litany if it has already been used this turn.

 

Unless MOS has some special exception. I don't have my book yet.

Edited November 27, 2019 by Link2edition

[Medjugorje]

 

I already have PA2. And The Master of sanctinity (if we take him instead of Grimaldus) can have another lithany of battle - so we can choose one lithany from our table (5+++) AND canticle of hate. In addition we can take the WL-Trait to reroll the dice for lithanies. If we take our relic  (2 dice for lithanies) and this WL-Trait we have a propability for 98.77 percent to get our lithany threw

 

I thought the litanies had to be from the same table?

 

just for grimaldus. The MoS is an upgrade for an usual Chaplain. The usual chaplain can take (as BT) one from table SM or Supp BT and with the Upgrade for an MoS he can take one additional lithany from lithany of battle.

 

@hymnworld: this stays exactly the same because its an upgrade for a chaplain (in game) so the sheet doesnt change that sentance. And Grimaldus have the same rule.

 

@palmu - you are correct. That restriction is specified in the BT table.

Edited November 27, 2019 by Medjugorje

[tvih]

That's an expensive distraction. Though actually the real problem of the LRC isn't so much if it'll get blown up, but whether your oponent is smart enough to tarpit it, which in amny ways is even worse.

A cheap distraction is easily ignored, though. Plus if it IS ignored, it can still do some damage at least. Tarpitting indeed is perhaps the biggest problem, since it doesn't require an expensive unit to do. It's too bad Bolter Drill doesn't apply to it, would make it easier to use at range. And it boggles my mind that Land Raiders - or heck, any tanks - are so vulnerable to being stuck in melee. It's perhaps my biggest grievance in 8th. It's ridiculous. You'd think there'd at least be a stratagem to overcome this for a something the size of a LR, but nooo.

[Palmu]

Okay boys, here's an extremely dumb combo for you. It working depends on an entirely too large amount of moving pieces, but the fact that it can be done tickles me a bit.

 

What you need: 

 

10 Incursors

Phobos Captain with Crusaders Helm and the Master of the Vanguard Warlord Trait

Grimaldus/Basic MoS (with the ++5 and +1A litanies)

Helbrecht as the Warlord, and also in a drop-pod

Basic battleline scenario (12" deployment zones with 24" in-between). Other scenarios can work as well, but it's easiest in this one.

You getting the first turn

 

What you do, is place the Incursors in a line that reaches from 9" from the enemy deployment zone to 6" away from your deployment zone. So fairly easy given how big the bases are and with the 2" coherency. Helbrech and the Captain are placed so that their auras affect the Incursors, you pop the Crusaders Helm on them, you slap both Litanies on them and then proceed to run at the enemy with that +1" Move, +2" Advance and +2" Charge, as well as 6" Pile In and 6" Consolidate. The amount you move will be ridiculous.

 

If all goes perfectly, you're slapping at least one enemy unit, possibly more, with 41 Attacks on S5 and AP-1, re-rolls to hit, 6's autowounding as well as exploding, and then you can proceed to do it again thanks to your colossal amounts of movement. 

 

However if the enemy steals initiative, you're gonna have a bad time, so attempt at your own risk.

[Ciler]

This only works if :

- the Phobos capt is still within 9' once you have finish moving+advancing with your incursors

- you can pod Helbrecht within 6' of one member of your squad

And you only get 15W average on MEQ.

 

It's very similar to what WS could do, but with less output, unfortunately.

[Palmu]

That's why it's a DUMB combo. I don't have much faith in Incursors in general because they lack any tools to deal with multiwound threats, even Scouts get to bring a Hammer Sergeant to smack things with. That's why I think this particular combo is just plain better with 10 Scouts, but Scouts don't get to reach the amount of SPEED and dice rolled that Incursors have, and everyone knows that it's just plain fun to roll a bucket of dice in one go. 

 

Though, you'll never find a situation where the unit WON'T be within 9" after they've finished their moves, same for Helbrecht being within 6" of them. It's actually physically impossible given the restraints of the game, the supposition that you have the first turn, and the enemy deployment zone. After they finish their charge moves it's a different case, but if you don't manage to create a tail that leads to just in range of Helbrecht, something has gone very wrong. 

[Ciler]

But then if you have a tail lead to remain within range of the big H, you don't have 40+ attacks...

[Palmu]

Good point, solution - Charge the big man as well! In fact, at least 50% of the army should be rolling to charge on the first turn to begin with!

[Acebaur]

Something else we need to start looking into again is VV. They have great movement of 12 inches. With our new strat we can advance and charge with them. You can have them run around with a MoS chaplain giving them 5+ FNP and SS for extra durability in case they get stuck out in the open. They have multiple deployment options as well. You can start them in a LRC with the chaplain outside and then you can disembark on turn 1 giving them 3+ extra inches of movement, move, advance (possibly with +1), and charge with up to +2 depending on your list. You can then use the LRC strat on them so they don't take overwatch. I think there is a lot of potential for these guys considering their access to gear. 

[Palmu]

Now, here's a list I've been toying around for a little while now. While it's still very much a work in progress, it's starting to take enough of a shape to put out. I'm trying to make Brigade work, as the CP hunger is real at times, but double Battalion and an attached Inquisitor is also attractive. Also, I dislike the SM Fast Attack options quite a bit, but I guess that in a list that just wants to go to melee, units that can bonk a flying unit out of the air are important to have. 

 

 

Black Templars

Relics of the Chapter

2x Number of extra Relics

Specialist Detachment

Black Templars Sword Brethren

 

Brigade Detachment

Total CP: 11

 

HQ

Captain

Selections: Chainsword, Jump Pack, Storm shield, Stratagem: Field Commander (Master Swordsman), Teeth of Terra

 

Chaplain Grimaldus

Selections:  Litany of Hate, Litany of Divine Protection, Fires of Devotion, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter (Epitome of Piety)

 

Chaplain on Bike

Selections: Canticle of Hate, Litany of Hate, Boltgun, Crusader's Helm, Twin boltgun

 

High Marshal Helbrecht

Selections: Warlord

 

Troops

Crusader Squad

Sword Brother: Chainsword, Thunder hammer

Initiate w/Heavy Weapon (Power sword)

8x Initiate w/Chainsword

10x Neophyte w/Combat Knife

 

 

Scout Squad

Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Thunder hammer

9x Scout w/Combat Knife

 

Scout Squad

Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Chainsword

9x Scout w/Combat Knife

 

Scout Squad

Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

4x Scout w/Boltgun

 

Scout Squad

Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

4x Scout w/Boltgun

 

Scout Squad

Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

4x Scout w/Boltgun

 

Elites

Company Veterans

3x Space Marine Veteran: Power sword, Storm shield

Veteran Sergeant: Thunder Hammer, Storm shield

 

Company Veterans

4x Space Marine Veteran: Power sword, Storm shield

Veteran Sergeant: Thunder Hammer, Storm shield

 

Vanguard Veteran Squad

Selections: Jump Pack

Veteran Sergeant: Chainsword, Thunder Hammer

2x Space Marine Veteran: Bolt pistol, Thunder hammer

4x Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Storm Shield

 

Fast Attack

Assault Squad

Selections: Jump Pack

4x Space Marine

Space Marine Sergeant: Chainsword, Thunder hammer

 

Assault Squad

Selections: Jump Pack

4x Space Marine

Space Marine Sergeant: Chainsword, Thunder hammer

 

Attack Bike Squad

Attack Bike: Heavy bolter, Twin boltgun

 

Heavy Support

Eliminator Squad

Eliminator Sergeant: Bolt Sniper Rifle

2x Eliminator with Bolt Sniper rifle

 

Eliminator Squad

Eliminator Sergeant: Bolt Sniper Rifle

2x Eliminator with Bolt Sniper rifle

 

Thunderfire Cannon

 

Dedicated Transport

Drop Pod: Storm Bolter

 

 

A solid 960 points or so in reserves and the majority of the units on the table in Concealed Positions. List features a lot of scouts because they're cheap and useful, and also an absolute must for getting good positions for the Reserves to land into. Two large groups of scouts to tie units down in CC in the first turns, along with a Chaplain with Crusaders Helm to potentially boost an unit, before riding forward to hopefully provide Canticles. 

 

Helbrecht and Swordbros drop down on turn 1 or 2, in an area cleared by large amounts of Scouts, Marshall Law and buddies come along as soon as there's enough space on the ground, while the Crusaders advance down the board protected by Grimaldus' Litanies and possibly providing the opponent with a threat they want to deal with. The Crusader Chaplain goes where he's needed to provide Charge assistance, Doctrine bonuses or possibly re-rolls. 

 

At least here in Finland many tournaments allow you to pick your Relics, Litanies/Psychic Powers and WT's before a match, but I placed the obvious choices into the list. It still has space for Relics to any Sergeants if need be, such as Witchseeker Bolts to Eliminators, or if the enemy has no Psykers, just not giving Grimaldus a WT at all. Or giving the Chaplain a trait of some sort, perhaps the "auto-pass morale tests" one, it seems useful for providing further protection to the units on the table.

 

Most importantly, it's a list that seeks to solve all its problems in CC, which is always quite the debatable thing to do, but we'll see how things develop from the current point onwards. 

[Marshal Arthur]

Something else we need to start looking into again is VV. They have great movement of 12 inches. With our new strat we can advance and charge with them. You can have them run around with a MoS chaplain giving them 5+ FNP and SS for extra durability in case they get stuck out in the open. They have multiple deployment options as well. You can start them in a LRC with the chaplain outside and then you can disembark on turn 1 giving them 3+ extra inches of movement, move, advance (possibly with +1), and charge with up to +2 depending on your list. You can then use the LRC strat on them so they don't take overwatch. I think there is a lot of potential for these guys considering their access to gear. 

I've been thinking the same thing. I haven't tested it yet but a jump pack vet squad in a LRC supported by a jump chaplain can cross most of the board on turn one. Support them with a drop pod assault of Helbrecth, Emperor's Champion, company vets, and cenobytes alongside a bunch of scouts and you have good odds of launching a mass charge on turn one.

 

Edit: From the sounds of it crusader squads won't get a point drop which is upsetting, however, they may prove useful as a second wave. Mass drop pod assault supports by concealed deployment units on turn one to trap your opponent in his/her deployment zone and kill key threats while large crusader squads push up the board with Grimaldus. Hopefully, your initial attack will reduce the enemy strength enough to make those large crusader squads difficult targets, especially when buffed by Grimaldus.

Edited November 29, 2019 by Marshal Arthur

[Ciler]

It would be upsetting indeed, even grey hunters are rumoured to drop to 12 pts.

[Acebaur]

Crusaders are still going to be 13 points, I can confirm this. It stinks but the best thing to do is email GW's FAQ team and be nice, just say hey I notice that crusaders are 13 points when other basic SM are all 12. We won't get anywhere by being jerks. 

 

However, crusaders even with the 1 point tax are still worth taking to fill battalions because they can have 2 power weapons and CCW and with Shock Assault that's a decent amount of attacks even on a 5 man squad, especially if they are in range of Helbrecht or a Marshal 

[Medjugorje]

There was a guy in the "b&c rumor section" who said that Crusaders stay by 13 and 11 points... But it does not mean he is correct.

 

@Acebaur - that is no argument.. Tacticals with Plasmagun and CombiPlasma is even better with Helbrecht/Captain...

Edited November 29, 2019 by Medjugorje

[Acebaur]

There was a guy in the "b&c rumor section" who said that Crusaders stay by 13 and 11 points... But it does not mean he is correct.

 

He is, I can confirm it. 

[Palmu]

If Tacticals went down to 11, then that's a moderately sized oof. 

[Marshal Arthur]

That's unfortunate. Did any of our HQs change?

[Medjugorje]

If Tacticals went down to 11, then that's a moderately sized oof. 

just the Chaos ones. The Tacticals of Codex SM is still 12 so far (what I heard)

[Marshal Arthur]

 

If Tacticals went down to 11, then that's a moderately sized oof. 

just the Chaos ones. The Tacticals of Codex SM is still 12 so far (what I heard)

 

Makes sense. Chaos really needs a whole rules update like Loyalists got.

[Schlitzaf]

....this is 7th edition all over again. Another edition tacticals get something and were hung out to dry. And in regards Crusader squads doing power weapon-power weapon. So can grey hunters.

 

But on that note we might just take tactical squads for small squads.