Am I mad, or are Ad. Mech in a great marine counter?

[dreadmad]

As I was pondering what to do for my next project (new marines are definitely tempting me back into the fold) I was also thinking that maybe playing something designed to counter Marines would be a good shout too.

 

The obvious thing that lept out at me is the Kataphron Destroyers with either Grav or Plasma (both seem acceptable), but even the Kastelan robots (wounding on 3's, AP-2 and crucially ignoring cover Vs those pesky pesky Stealthy Marines).

 

On top of that you have *some ability to scout out of deployment, and protect yourself from alpha strikes with Stygies*

 

Aside from that, the other thing that lept out at me was the ability to soup in a single Knight without losing pure Ad Mech classification in ITC. At this point I feel a Tannaris Castellan (so you can almost guarantee at least 1 round of shooting) to benefit from the Canticle strat (either for the Reroll 1's to hit or the +1 armour save - potentially paired with the 2+ armour save relic) could be solid.

 

I don't know, maybe I'm grasping at straws but I'd love to hear some other takes on this!

[Gaz1858]

Admech are in a good place against Marines i think. Marines can still dish out the punishment so you need to play smart.

 

Kastelans are deadly to them with sheer weight of fire and -2. Add in wrath of mars for more chance of wiping them.

 

Skorpius is good at rooting out Eliminators or the ever present scout squads.

 

I am planning on running some fulgurite priests which are good again for -2 and mortal wound abilities.

[Prot]

I'm just going to give you my 100% honest opinion on this. A lot of armies are very good at killing marines. Most Xenos excel at it.

 

AdMech is an extremely difficult army to play, and while they have some neato stuff to kill Primaris, they are at a severe disadvantage. The whole army is fragile, has poor man's aura's, is dated with all but the newest weapons. I've seen 4 Dakka bot armies do their one turn of mortals, and they are gone.

 

I'm knee deep in AdMech, I would not advise my best friend getting into the game to pick them up. Even the lowliest of marine supplement is far superior. Enjoy the incredible flexibility, and range of useful units in marines. Admech relies on characters (that are easily destroyed.) 

 

It wasn't my game but I've even seen Cawl destroyed by one Imperial Fists Stalker Bolter squad shooting him from halfway accross the table.. in cover. It doesn't matter. 

 

Add the already existent issues: no psykers, little psyker protection, really difficult CP generation/recover, No Flyers to this day for some reason... GW has only given this army what I call the cheap way out: About every 6 months they get a new character to save the army with a new aura. I've got a ton of HQ's to choose from, and they just can't compensate for poor dataslates.

 

That said, if you are pure fluff, you can have fun. The brand new tanks were an very welcome addition, but most armies just soup up with Admech to get to those units. But even the sub 100 point Thunderfire is an amazing, and powerful unit.

 

Quite frankly marines do all of this... all of it, better and with better CC, pskyers, flyers, and strats. Plus they hit like a truck now. 

 

If I had a friend thinking of just getting (back) in right now, I would save him a world of frustration and tell him to jump on the marine bus. 

[dreadmad]

Thanks for the insight guys!

 

I'm wondering what to play for the upcoming ITC season, and I'm thinking about various options.

 

I'll hold off on CA19 before I make any real decisions, but I feel like there's a strong ITC list available (A single Knight, 3 of the new indirect fire tanks, MSU Breachers for slightly more survivable troops). The new inquisitors/the Assassin strat go a decent way towards dealing with Psyker issues - and some CP generation availability too.

 

I can see how those issues could be frustrating, but if they get some points drops the greater numbers you could field might lessen that somewhat. I'll wait and see though I guess!

[Gaz1858]

I do agree with 99% of what Prot has said about admech. We have a bunch of rules that just dont work well (half the canticles are cack and the others situational), Traits and Relics that I take because I can over them actually being any good and about 5 good strats depending on the makeup of your army.

 

However from playing Marines this weekend (one against pure IF and one against a White Scars/Salamanders mix) I do think a good admech player can get a win. 

 

In game one against IF they had 50 intercessors with Stalkers, 2 Whirlwinds, Dev Cents, TF Cannon and a few characters etc. I lost that 17 - 10 however as it was the first time I played them I didnt know what they could do. Going froward against this kind of list deploy as far back as possible, about 50" where possible, and you will outrange them for a turn or twos shooting. Also have something in your army that can go and get the backfield artillery. Assassin, Drill, Lucius etc. Stuff that can just appear there and need to be dealt with. I do not think Dragoons are the way to go against Fists as 2 wounds kills a Dragoon from Stalkers and they reroll all misses so.....

 

Against the Scars and Salamanders he Outflanked and Deep Struck with 2 5 man Assault Cents and assorted characters getting +2 charge on one unit, 3d6 on another and a load of BS rules that Marines have currently (pre FAQ). He took out a fair chunk of my army initially HOWEVER with what I had left all of those models ended the game dead and he only had his backfield TF Cannons, Scouts and some marines left. Again, now knowing what they can do some better deployment would have minimised his initial strike. I came back from a big deficit to lose by only 6 points. 

 

So yes marines are good and they hit a lot harder than previously but outside of IH they all die just the same. When youre shooting a marine unit theres no real difference to pre and post codex. Its still a T4 unit with 2+ or 3+.

[Black Knight]

That rumour engine gives me hope, Flash Gorden Hawk Skitarii!

[brother_b]

Yeah, makes me wonder sometimes. I've got a great looking army, very neat models that really feel like the Adeptus Mechanicus. I just, I can't beat Space Marines. I can't beat Guard. Whatever I do, they do better.

 

Assault Centurions are loads better than my Robots. They're just far superior. So what can I do? I'm not going to go out and spend a ton more money on an army I'm close to finish. I'm not going to soup in stuff. Or maybe I am? Maybe I'll make up for shortcomings by just throwing some Knights or Armigers.

 

Honestly, I play to have fun, I can't stand WAAC, I think ITC has far too much pull over the trajectory of this game; I still love this army though.

 

Anyway, if you love the models, then get into the army. Playing something because it's powerful or whatever and you don't actually LIKE the army is a path to unhappiness. Your army will never be painted, as you won't be motivated, and the joy of the battle will just not be there.

 

 

[Prot]

Yeah, makes me wonder sometimes. I've got a great looking army, very neat models that really feel like the Adeptus Mechanicus. I just, I can't beat Space Marines. I can't beat Guard. Whatever I do, they do better.

 

Assault Centurions are loads better than my Robots. They're just far superior. So what can I do? I'm not going to go out and spend a ton more money on an army I'm close to finish. I'm not going to soup in stuff. Or maybe I am? Maybe I'll make up for shortcomings by just throwing some Knights or Armigers.

 

Honestly, I play to have fun, I can't stand WAAC, I think ITC has far too much pull over the trajectory of this game; I still love this army though.

 

Anyway, if you love the models, then get into the army. Playing something because it's powerful or whatever and you don't actually LIKE the army is a path to unhappiness. Your army will never be painted, as you won't be motivated, and the joy of the battle will just not be there.

 

I think that's a really true statement.  I have played Ultramarines for years and seen the ups and downs. Right now with my Ultra's I fear really only shooty Orks and Astra. They are super hard to pin down, and have the points for super cheap infantry and gobs of it. Both armies can sit back and dish it out, but Orks have a lot of flexibility and answers to TFC's, etc.

 

Admech lack all of this. If I know I'm playing against a guy with deep strikers, drills, etc, then I just keep a string of Infiltrators out of LOS preventing them any harm. I have won games with TFC alone on Orks, double firing (hitting two squads) and slowing both to a crawl, and using Infiltrators to diminish threats like Da Jump. Tau are really still (IMHO) the best competitive army in 40k period. They still win regardless, and are built to ignore thunderfire tremor shells, they all (pretty much) have fly, and they have a lot of anti-marine weaponry.

 

Admech had one real chance when the new vehicles came out, but for some reason they didn't get the Repulsor type treatment that they not physically mimic to a degree, but were (I assume) created by the same source. It's just far too easy to bump into AdMech and they're done. Once you hit 34-36" with Marines you are in their wheelhouse. 

 

If I could tell you the amount of games I've seen/experienced where Admech are tapped by marines and rendered useless... it's just too easy.

 

Don't forget that Drop Pods are a real thing, and flyers are back with a vengeance, ignoring penalties, and no one does this better than IH of course, but still, these are real threats that AdMech can run in circles trying to protect against. 

 

Right now, erroneously or not, I am playing my Custodes with Admech. I actually think AdMech is better with Knights, but I want to use my Custodes for a while.

 

 

 

Honestly, I play to have fun, I can't stand WAAC, I think ITC has far too much pull over the trajectory of this game; I still love this army though.

 

I'm a fan of many ways to play this game, but I strongly agree with that statement.

[MegaVolt87]

You guys need the whole 30k ad mech range ported over to 40k like custodes got/getting. 

[Black Knight]

You guys need the whole 30k ad mech range ported over to 40k like custodes got/getting. 

 

When it does happen I hope it works like relics and we get one per battle, I would rather they fill our armies holes with new models than make us buy all of Forgeworld. One centre piece I can get behind, but any more nope!

 

I want my Thanatar!

[Magos Takatus]

 

You guys need the whole 30k ad mech range ported over to 40k like custodes got/getting. 

 

When it does happen I hope it works like relics and we get one per battle, I would rather they fill our armies holes with new models than make us buy all of Forgeworld. One centre piece I can get behind, but any more nope!

 

I want my Thanatar!

 

Just for mentioning the prospect of a 40k Thanatar you get a like. I would love to buy one but having it separate from my current 40k Mechanicus army makes it a lot less appealing.

[BolterZorro]

The whole mechanicus rage of FW is superb...and rich. Too bad GW doesn't want to make it pastic-admech standart in 40. Admech would become a wide army with many options. And more competitive (I mean, less weak).

[Charlo]

You guys need the whole 30k ad mech range ported over to 40k like custodes got/getting.

Honestly, I think it will happen eventually. We got Secutarii.

 

With the rumors that 9th is coming mid next year I think it will be probs be after then.

[Gaz1858]

Yeh the codexs coming out at the moment( sisters and marines) all seem to have mono faction benefits. Sisters even seem to have a version of canticles

[Son of Sacrifice]

Honestly, I play to have fun, I can't stand WAAC, I think ITC has far too much pull over the trajectory of this game; I still love this army though.

 

This is a great point that deserves it's own thread I think. I agree entirely. I enjoy playing ITC format, but it should be treated as a niche to this great hobby. 8th edition is starting to burn me out.

[Suzuteo]

In my opinion, AdMech are underrated. Thing is, the low skill cap armies (Cawlstar with a Knight or Breacher spam) are pretty much dead. If you want to see what a competitive AdMech list looks like now, refer to Mark Hertel or Lewis Stolburg’s lists. In summary, it’s transport spam. Think Drukhari with better artillery. Triple Crawlers and Grators, then as many Duneriders and Drills as you can fit in. (Fill them up with cheap Calivers and/or Hoplites.) Infiltrate on turn one and win on objectives and things like Old School and Recon. Get used to playing fast and on the clock to go all six rounds. Remember: castling up means you’ll just lose slower. You are neither the shootiest army nor particularly durable any more.

[Prot]

I tried Transport spam out of the gap. I think it still has too many silver bullets. It can work, but it needs to thread a needle through some pretty hard counters.

 

I do think Dunecrawlers are dead, and Dakka bots are far too limited and only meant for specific match ups. The Skorpius is good but still given too much credit for saving the AdMech line.

 

There’s a very new Table top tactics batrep out where the AdMech guy takes all the staples. Dakka bots, dunestriders, Skorpius, Dunecrawlers, Cawl, etc.

 

The guy prefaces the game by touting the abilities of the Dunecrawlers...and how good they are. I shake my head. The guy has the right spirit, and his hearts in the right place but a D3 shot tank in this meta is going the way of the dodo bird. Sure enough he experiences single shots with zero results. This is an era of 2-3 turn games. Very specific builds are meant to go 5-6 turns.

 

Anyway I won’t ruin it for you guys if you want to check it out It was very recently uploaded to YouTube.

 

And BBone is playing Ultramarines. It’s certainly not a flimsy list but you won’t see that list at any ITC top tables either.

 

I’ve actually stopped playing my Ultras personally.

[Black Knight]

The Ultramarines still got first turn and I think that really hinders any army. Every time I see a batrep Admech always go second :(

[Gaz1858]

I tried Transport spam out of the gap. I think it still has too many silver bullets. It can work, but it needs to thread a needle through some pretty hard counters.

 

I do think Dunecrawlers are dead, and Dakka bots are far too limited and only meant for specific match ups. The Skorpius is good but still given too much credit for saving the AdMech line.

 

There’s a very new Table top tactics batrep out where the AdMech guy takes all the staples. Dakka bots, dunestriders, Skorpius, Dunecrawlers, Cawl, etc.

 

The guy prefaces the game by touting the abilities of the Dunecrawlers...and how good they are. I shake my head. The guy has the right spirit, and his hearts in the right place but a D3 shot tank in this meta is going the way of the dodo bird. Sure enough he experiences single shots with zero results. This is an era of 2-3 turn games. Very specific builds are meant to go 5-6 turns.

 

Anyway I won’t ruin it for you guys if you want to check it out It was very recently uploaded to YouTube.

 

And BBone is playing Ultramarines. It’s certainly not a flimsy list but you won’t see that list at any ITC top tables either.

 

I’ve actually stopped playing my Ultras personally.

Yeh watched this and 100% agree. If youre taking Onagers, take the Icarus.

 

If youre taking Kastelan Dakka bots, take the cohort so you have the ability to move and shoot.

 

Two things that this army in the batrep missed out on

[Subtle Discord]

*Subtle hums a binaric cant very loudly to distract from the discussion as he puts the finishing touches on his over-the-top Onagers*

 

 

I guess it's a good thing this is one part display army as much as a collection I plan to play with; I really do want some just because they look so great.

 

It's frustrating to see this faction have so many of the right elements that should help it keep in contention (even if some of the selection is still limited) but it's still lacking some key elements and the codex is starting to slip behind the creep curve. I think GW is committed to continuing to expand the AdMech line and I have a feeling they might be due for a proper big round two update when they get around to addressing the codex.

 

After the Marines update the next few codex releases, no matter what faction they're for, are really going to set the tone for what we're going to see going forward, I suspect. Here's hoping the factions that need some attention get the help they need. We all know GW's track record is spotting at best, but they're been trending much better the last several years.

[Suzuteo]

All very good points. But consider the following. Transport spam lists usually go first because they have fewer drops. (Mine only has 13.) With infiltration, you're on midfield objectives and up in their face right away. Marines are definitely super killy now, but they still die like Marines. Cheap Calivers and Hoplites or a single unit of 5x Breachers are point efficient in the matchup. Whatever you can't kill, tie it down with your transport in CC; Hoplites are especially frustrating for Marines, especially with Acquisition on them. Stolburg went 5-0 at Steel City, with three of those games up against Iron Hands, including two in the second day.

 

And yeah, we do live in an era of 3-4 round games. So bring that chess clock and play fast. Go the distance. If you're focusing entirely on fighting over the midfield and ignore/tie up their tanks, most Marine lists are totally spent by Round 4-5, with nothing left to score points with.

[Charlo]

I always find myself coming back to Ad Mech as in truth, they're my dream faction for 40k and I never expected them to have a full army.

 

However I find that they don't compete in top tier (without seriously boring spam) or in a more casual setting, things like Wrath of Mars robots or massed Kataphron are a little too nasty to put against people. It's tough!

[Suzuteo]

Well, in the current environment, even Robots are risky. You have to go first to make them pay off. A big unit of T7 6W 4++ is not as durable as it used to be.

[brother_b]

Ehhhhhh

 

This for ITC conversations? Onagers are tough and can bring good firepower with the Icarus. I love those neutron cannons but I thinks it’s 3 with Skorpius back up or nothing.

 

I’m more down on robots quite honestly. They’re just meh without Cawl and I don’t play Mars. :/

[Suzuteo]

Icarus Crawlers at 102 points each are AMAZING. And Disintegrators in general are ridiculous in terms of point efficiency. Durable, fast, and versatile.

 

Again, I think we sell ourselves short. We're not OP like Marines with their absurd number of stacked buffs, but we're not nearly as helpless as other armies.