How faith and Fury affects ultras

[emperorpants]

Well, it seems to me that it takes away a few unique things we had and hands them to other factions. Essentially other chapters can make better versions of Tiggy and Cassius. *sigh*. Also, our chapter specific litany is...well....I'll just say it. It's garbage. Not just the worst chapter specific litany, but probably the worst litany in the game. Period. Re roll dice rolls of one when charging. After casting it on a 3 up at the top of the battle round. Cuz that's obviously so much better than casting plus 1 to hit or wound....

 

 

Don't get me wrong, ultras aren't bad. We are a good army. It just seems to me we keep getting our special things handed out to everyone else while getting nothing in return. So to me, it seems that faith and Fury added some cool stuff...but at the expense of taking away the few advantages we had over other chapters.

 

Not trying to be salty here, just would be nice if got a few more unique cool things, as Tiggy and Cassius used to have rules only we could do, but not anymore.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Only a fool would argue about SM being bad in general.

[Cruor Vault]

Tigurius and Cassius are still much better than the new CP fueled versions.  Both of them are getting significant upgrades over the base versions without requiring the expenditure of valuable CP.  

 

Tigurius gets the benefit of BOTH new warlord traits and the upgrade stratagem for FREE (well... 32pts over the cost of a Primaris Librarian).  He's also got an awesome melee weapon and the ability to re-roll psychic checks AND his master of prescience ability.  The only thing he's losing out on is the ability to mix and match powers.

 

Cassius gets T5, a Master Crafted Combi-Bolter, a relic tier Crozius (+1 S/AP)  and his weird MW on death power for essentially free.

 

Our Chapter Champion is still outright better than the F&F version, with the only thing ours not doing better is the warlord trait granting re-roll charges to anyone within 6".  Which is sweet, but not something UM really need as we're a primarily shooting army.

 

The Chapter Ancient from F&F can be argued to be better than our based on the Warlord Traits available, but any of those would require further CP expenditures making a comparison harder to perform.

 

The Techmarine and Apothecary upgrades are so AMAZING I cannot fathom us living in a world where they don't instantly get the Ironstone treatment.  I'd be shocked if they weren't both FAQ'ed to "pick a single unit at the start of the battle round/turn".  Seeing as we don't have anything comparable, they're just straight buffs.

[Subtleknife]

I disagree. Those characters were our advantages. Now much stronger supplements are closing the gap in these areas to.

[emperorpants]

Only a fool would argue about SM being bad in general.

.....which is why I said they were a good army....ive never once said they were bad....so I'm wondering what the point of your post was? Maybe I am misunderstanding?

[emperorpants]

Tigurius and Cassius are still much better than the new CP fueled versions.  Both of them are getting significant upgrades over the base versions without requiring the expenditure of valuable CP.  

 

Tigurius gets the benefit of BOTH new warlord traits and the upgrade stratagem for FREE (well... 32pts over the cost of a Primaris Librarian).  He's also got an awesome melee weapon and the ability to re-roll psychic checks AND his master of prescience ability.  The only thing he's losing out on is the ability to mix and match powers.

 

Cassius gets T5, a Master Crafted Combi-Bolter, a relic tier Crozius (+1 S/AP)  and his weird MW on death power for essentially free.

 

Our Chapter Champion is still outright better than the F&F version, with the only thing ours not doing better is the warlord trait granting re-roll charges to anyone within 6".  Which is sweet, but not something UM really need as we're a primarily shooting army.

 

The Chapter Ancient from F&F can be argued to be better than our based on the Warlord Traits available, but any of those would require further CP expenditures making a comparison harder to perform.

 

The Techmarine and Apothecary upgrades are so AMAZING I cannot fathom us living in a world where they don't instantly get the Ironstone treatment.  I'd be shocked if they weren't both FAQ'ed to "pick a single unit at the start of the battle round/turn".  Seeing as we don't have anything comparable, they're just straight buffs.

Tiggy and Cassius don't benefit from the new warlord traits. As named characters they are locked into the traits from the ultra book. They are both worse than what you can make in faith and Fury.

[emperorpants]

Saves you money on the book is a good thing.

Ultras also don’t need to spend CP to get those benefits, since we already get them on characters as you said.

That litany is disappointing though it seems.

Yeah, we save cp, but not points, by getting inferior versions as named characters. As subtle knife said, our named characters were one of our VERY few advantages over the other supplements, and now those supplements can get better equivalents. What's more, those supplements are quite clearly superior to ultras. By a large margin. Just look at win percentages. Then as the cherry on top we get the worst litany by far. It just feels bad, like we are paying for the sins of early 8th gman lists. Which we likely are at this point.

[emperorpants]

Well I think you are being a bit salty. The litany isn’t even as terrible as you’re making it seem. Turning a 1 into a 2 to a 6 when you need it has value.

Everything adds into the Ultramarines toolbox, and THAT is the greatest strength. Sure a reroll to an advance or charge may on the surface seem not as sexy as hit or wound rerolls, but if you’re trying to MOVE, then it’s a valuable commodity to have.

Gnashing teeth over our special characters versus the new upgrades is being mad for mad sakes. We can make the same characters too, while also having choice of Tiggy and Cass.

I’d say just go play one of the other supplements if you are so upset at what ultras got, but I don’t need to hear the tired old response I’m sure I’ll receive.

No need for hostility. Are you unable to discuss this without being upset or insulting? My point wasn't that ultras are bad. Again, they aren't. I'm not sure how often I have to say that. Seriously. My point is that we don't have cool things that make us unique, and that it would be nice if we did. Are you incapable of discussing that in a civil manner?

 

I'm fine with other chapters getting what they got. I just wish we got other things that gave us cool unique things.

 

Tired responses? You mean like how our strength is our adaptability? That's not a strength that is born out on the table top sadly. The stats show that. Adaptability isn't really a strength in this game when other chapters have such strong knock out punches. Dead models can't adapt to anything after all.

 

Again, I'm actually fine with the relative power levels of the chapters. Again, it's more that we are increasingly running out of things to hang our hat on. We used to have a primarch that gave us a unique benefit. Not anymore. None of our abilities are unique, as other chapters have similar things for every cool thing we can do. Our last bastion of unique things were our other special characters that gave unique benefits. Not anymore. I know we are the jack of all trades, master of none, but that doesn't mean we can't get some unique things.

 

I hope we can discuss some things that could be done different with ultramarines without you or others getting mad or insulting. Are we not allowed to say that ultras could be done better? Are we also not able to discuss things we find disappointing about ultras? Or does the ultramarines board have to be about how perfect the ultras are at all times?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Just go play another faction so you can be happy.

[Exilyth]

Can UM use the faith and fury rules in addition to their special characters?

 

Even if they can't, UM still get the option of choosing between paying points for a special character and spending CP for a stratagem, which adds versatility in list building.

[Kallas]

Can UM use the faith and fury rules in addition to their special characters?

 

Even if they can't, UM still get the option of choosing between paying points for a special character and spending CP for a stratagem, which adds versatility in list building.

 

You can use them to make characters that aren't already Chapter Command models into the relevant ones, yes (eg, a regular Chaplain into a Master of Sanctity). You cannot, however, have a F&F Master of Sanctity and Cassius, who is already a Master of Sanctity, as each of the Command Stratagems has a limitation of one of each Keyword (and same Chapter) in an army.

[emperorpants]

Just go play another faction so you can be happy.

I love ultramarines. I love their lore and characters. I will continue to play them regardless. So I will ask again, is this a discussion board or a board that is all about ultra love and nothing else? It seems to be somewhat poor form to tell people to just go play another army when they are voicing concerns about an army and just want some more identity and unique things for the army.

 

So, why are you telling me to go play another army? If you think everything is great with ultras, Cool! That's your opinion and you are welcome to it. I'm glad you're happy with how things are going. It seems a bit rude though to come into a thread and tell others who disagree to go play another army. If you don't want to discuss or address my points then I guess ignore them, or the thread, etc. I guess I just don't understand why some people are so opposed to discussing ways ultras could be improved and the ways GW maybe didn't handle them the best.

 

So again, to me it just seems that improving other chapters, who are already a bit better than ultras and have their own unique things, by giving them everything that makes ultras unique...a bit silly. Do you disagree? If you do, let's hear why! I'd love to talk about it, it's why I made the thread. I've been nothing but civil to everyone here. Would be nice if the same courtesy was extended my way. If, however, you just want to tell me to play another army, I guess I have to ask why you are reading the thread if seeing someone suggesting everything isn't the best it could possibly be bothers you so much.

[emperorpants]

Can UM use the faith and fury rules in addition to their special characters?

 

Even if they can't, UM still get the option of choosing between paying points for a special character and spending CP for a stratagem, which adds versatility in list building.

As another possible positive for ultras crunch wise to using the named characters, is the fact that ultras usually have more cp due to regen. This means we can save cp by taking calgar and Cassius and using that saved cp to upgrade a techmarine, ancient, or apothecary. Which is pretty nice, as you are getting more powerful hqs for a decent amount less in cp expenditure.

[Cruor Vault]

 

Tiggy and Cassius don't benefit from the new warlord traits. As named characters they are locked into the traits from the ultra book. They are both worse than what you can make in faith and Fury.

 

 

I never said they benefit from the new Warlord traits.  I said their built in abilities essentially replicate them. 

 

In what way is ANY FnF Librarian better than Tigurius? 

 

Other than the ability to mix and match powers, he does everything the FnF version does. He even has a few extra tweaks beyond like getting +1 to cast on ALL powers, re-rolling ANY psychic check, Master of Prescience, and his melee weapon!

 

Cassius getting a boosted Crozius/Bolter and T5 is a little less amazing, but still quite excellent for gunline buff character. 

 

Outside of a smash Chaplain, what build can you do with a FnF Chaplain that Cassius isn't cheaper (and CP free)?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

One thing important to note is the Emperor wears trousers not pants. Just ask Malcador.

[emperorpants]

One thing important to note is the Emperor wears trousers not pants. Just ask Malcador.

Lol! True true!

[emperorpants]

 

Tiggy and Cassius don't benefit from the new warlord traits. As named characters they are locked into the traits from the ultra book. They are both worse than what you can make in faith and Fury.

 

 

I never said they benefit from the new Warlord traits.  I said their built in abilities essentially replicate them. 

 

In what way is ANY FnF Librarian better than Tigurius? 

 

Other than the ability to mix and match powers, he does everything the FnF version does. He even has a few extra tweaks beyond like getting +1 to cast on ALL powers, re-rolling ANY psychic check, Master of Prescience, and his melee weapon!

 

Cassius getting a boosted Crozius/Bolter and T5 is a little less amazing, but still quite excellent for gunline buff character. 

 

Outside of a smash Chaplain, what build can you do with a FnF Chaplain that Cassius isn't cheaper (and CP free)?

Sorry, misunderstood you then. I just think that choosing from different powers pools that are largely better than what Tiggy has access to, in addition to being cheaper points wise and having access to relics overshadows Tiggy a bit.

[Kallas]

Sorry, misunderstood you then. I just think that choosing from different powers pools that are largely better than what Tiggy has access to, in addition to being cheaper points wise and having access to relics overshadows Tiggy a bit.

 

Well, Tigurius has access to Librarius or Indomitus, just like a Librarian/Primaris Librarian. A Phobos or F&F Librarian has some sidegrade or advantage, respectively: Phobos has access to an entire discipline unavailable to Tigurius (but with the majority having severe restrictions on applications [ie, mostly targeting Phobos]) whereas the F&F Librarian can mix and match (with the use of a Warlord Trait) from both Librarius and Indomitus. Those aren't small differences, but it very much depends on what you want from your supporting Librarian: Tigurius brings a whole suite of abilities/additional effects that cannot be replicated (Prescience; +1 to manifest on all tests, and reroll manifest tests; improved melee.

 

I think, in the specific example of Tigurius here, that F&F opens up a lot of options for other Chapters, but for Ultramarines Tigurius is still a fantastic choice and, unless ousted by some other requirement/preference (eg, Jump Pack) is superior to an F&F Chief Librarian/Primaris Librarian.

[Seahawk]

The only thing that bothers me is that a regular librarian can now cast more powers per turns than "the most powerful psyker in the imperium". 

[Brother Sergeant Scarus]

So, unless I'm missing something.

Tigurius vs Librarian upgraded via FnF

Tigurius gets:

+1 to cast on all powers and a +1 to deny at 24"
He grants a -1 to hit on a friendly unit within 6 at the start of the round.
Has a +3, -3, D3 damage weapon
Knows 3 spells, can cast 2, can deny 2.
Can re-roll psychic tests
Costs you 0 CP to create


Regular Librarian from FnF:

+1 to cast on first power (potentially, if you give him a warlord trait) OR can mix and match spells
+1 to deny if you give him the relic to extend his psychic hood range to 24" 
Knows 3 spells, can cast 2, can deny 2


Costs 1 CP to make a Chief Librarian and will either cost you 1CP to give a warlord trait (if not your warlord and using Hero of the Chapter), and 1CP for a relic unless you take the Neural Shroud as your free relic... which seems unlikely given the breadth of relics marines have access to. 

Tigurius is a few more points, but CP are far more precious to a marine army than 2 intercessors worth of points. 

Am I missing something? For other chapters I'm sure it may be really beneficial for them to create a Chief Librarian (again at CP cost which is not insignificant), but there isn't any way I'd take a normal librarian over Tigurius if I can choose between the two (e.g. as an Ultramarine), unless I needed a jump pack librarian specifically.

[emperorpants]

 

Sorry, misunderstood you then. I just think that choosing from different powers pools that are largely better than what Tiggy has access to, in addition to being cheaper points wise and having access to relics overshadows Tiggy a bit.

 

Well, Tigurius has access to Librarius or Indomitus, just like a Librarian/Primaris Librarian. A Phobos or F&F Librarian has some sidegrade or advantage, respectively: Phobos has access to an entire discipline unavailable to Tigurius (but with the majority having severe restrictions on applications [ie, mostly targeting Phobos]) whereas the F&F Librarian can mix and match (with the use of a Warlord Trait) from both Librarius and Indomitus. Those aren't small differences, but it very much depends on what you want from your supporting Librarian: Tigurius brings a whole suite of abilities/additional effects that cannot be replicated (Prescience; +1 to manifest on all tests, and reroll manifest tests; improved melee.

 

I think, in the specific example of Tigurius here, that F&F opens up a lot of options for other Chapters, but for Ultramarines Tigurius is still a fantastic choice and, unless ousted by some other requirement/preference (eg, Jump Pack) is superior to an F&F Chief Librarian/Primaris Librarian.

 

Yup, that is very true.  I agree that for Ultras Tiggy is better than any libby you can make with this.  My thoughts were just that other chapters could make better chief librarians because of having access to a better pool of powers to choose from.  However, you guys are right that Tiggy adds a lot of reliability with his re-rolls, and some much needed defense with his -1 to hit trick...hmmm.  I'll retract my statement about Tiggy.  He is still better.

[Subtleknife]

Just go play another faction so you can be happy.

Not a helpful comment is it really?

 

I think you have missed the point entirely as well.

[StraightSilver]

I'm starting to believe that the strength of Ultramarines doesn't lie in the special rules but in our unique Stratagems. You need CPs for those and if you have enough CPs to make use of those Stratagems Ultras can stand against most armies on an equal footing. I don't think as an army Ultras can afford to spend many CPs to make use of these upgrades so our special characters are a good counter for this. 

[crazyterran]

I kind of like the ability to upgrade characters for my non-Primaris 32k Army, but in terms of Ultramarines as a whole I don't see this replacing Tigurius anytime soon. 

 

Cassius is only 85 points for what he provides, which is a tougher chaplain with a built in relic bolter and crozius. 

 

The real question is if our Champion/Ancient can get the relics/WLTs from F&F, or if they count as specials? I don't think they count as special characters, but...

 

EDIT: The Master of the Forge WLT to get the +1 to hit to vehicles will offset our turn 1 lack of Tactical Doctrine, and for BS3+ vehicles will be BS2+ from turn 2 onwards. Great for Leviathans/C-Mortis dreads who are 2+ to hit anyways, and will let them also offset negatives to hit later on. Not to mention a guaranteed 3 wounds healed is great! And a Techmarine is quite cheap on top of it. 

[Aothaine]

 

 

Strange how people bemoaning F&F changes seem to be ignoring your post pointing out the differences and how much better Tigurius still is. 

 

Anyway, back on topic. F&F seems to have changed things for Ultramarines very little. What this does allow is someone to play a successor chapter and still get access to decent librarians/chaplains which I think it a really good move on GW's part. This is going to encourage people to make their successor chapters and not have everyone play the primary legions/chapters. Only thing successors are really missing out on right now are primarchs but those are still pretty limited so far.