Black Templar Strategem Tactica

[Medjugorje]

-Abhor the witch(is better then before and still k´kn ´s)

4+ and a psychic power is denied, especially you can try to deny normal before

 

-Chapter Relics (...)

Relics

 

-Devout push (just amazing - so important to get 6" more movement especially if you combined it with TA)

6" for pile in/consolidate

 

-Tenacious Assault (bit expensive but AWESOME - very very good except it just work on infantry)

2+ and your enemy cannot leave combat.

 

-The Emperors will (is amazing)

run and shoot pistoles and still Charge is very good (in combination with Helbrechts WL-Trait)

 

-Vicious Riposte ( a bit situationally - but against hordes it can be very great)

(each save roll of 6 make a MW against the enemy)

 

-shock and awe (good - but you have to take LRC - works good with emperors will)

no overwatch if embarked from a LRC

 

-Oath of honor (maybe one of the strongest Strats)

funny Thing is that our Scouts will be very strong in Close combat now^^

reroll wound rolls for Scouts (yes not Crusader Squad Neophytes)

Edited November 17, 2019 by Acebaur

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Vicious Riposte will be funny against horde units. 20 genestealers could potentially kill themselves!

[MarshalMittermeier]

idk, i am still not super sold on shock and awe. i hesitate to take such expensive units nowadays...

 

...but emperor's will is so awesome. i still cannot get it through my head that a power-armoured cc-favouring army got this (particularly in conjunction with other stuff).

[Medjugorje]

look which units prefer from what Stratagem:

 

 

#Emperors will (advance + shoot pistoles + charge)

- Aggressors can advance and shoot as normal and charge

- Intercessors with Assaultweapons can advanve, shoot with their assault weapons and charge

- Reivers could be a thing now. And they are good in Assault and in Tactical Doctrine then.

- characters could benefit from this stratagem too ( especially with plasma pistole or to arrive more likly into close combat) 

- Terminators now have a bigger thread range - thats HUGE

- for sure our Crusader Squad and our Tier1 output unit (scouts^^) benefit from this Stratagem (if you use the LRC Stratagem for any unit - emperors will helps a lot)

- Assault Squads and Vanguards not to speak of.

[Palmu]

Devout Push - "Until the end of that phase the unit can Pile In, and when consolidating moves 6" instead of 3"."

 

I'm not super clear on rules so I'm not sure how to read this stratagem - Can an unit that didn't charge this turn Pile In to get into combat? Or do they just immediately get to pile in, then pile in AGAIN when you choose them to fight? Either way this seems like a super powerful combination, once more, with Canticle of Hate. 

[Acebaur]

Devout Push - "Until the end of that phase the unit can Pile In, and when consolidating moves 6" instead of 3"."

 

I'm not super clear on rules so I'm not sure how to read this stratagem - Can an unit that didn't charge this turn Pile In to get into combat? Or do they just immediately get to pile in, then pile in AGAIN when you choose them to fight? Either way this seems like a super powerful combination, once more, with Canticle of Hate.

Holy throne, you are right. It says pick a Black Templars unit. No restrictions.

 

So, start of the fight phase, pop the strat a unit can then just pile in. There doesn't seem to be any restrictions either in the BRB or the strat. So you can can use this to pull a nearby unit into combat and they then get to pile in again.

[Palmu]

Yeah, it seems pretty clear - You can pile in, AND when you consolidate you move up to 6". Which means that we not only have a way to advance and charge in a single turn, we can also shove an unit 6" forward to "charge" with this stratagem. 

 

Seems EXTREMELY dangerous on paper. We have quite a strong suite of close-combat Stratagems that aren't immediately obvious in how strong they are. This one is definitely going to take a lot of people by surprise, when an unit of templars that advances into their face doesn't charge them and take overwatch, but just gets into combat without charging. 

 

To me it seems like this entire damn supplement has been balanced with Canticle of Hate in mind, lol. 

[Hymnblade]

Yeah, it seems pretty clear - You can pile in, AND when you consolidate you move up to 6". Which means that we not only have a way to advance and charge in a single turn, we can also shove an unit 6" forward to "charge" with this stratagem.

That sounds to me like something that may get FAQed. I suspect it's intended to copy the pile-in-and-consolidate effect of Canticle.

 

Even with a literal reading, I don't think you can use it to bypass Overwatch: the rules already forbid piling into combat with units you didn't declare a charge against.

[Palmu]

That Stratagem is painfully unclear on what exactly it's supposed to do. It could very well be supposed to just allow units to pile in and consolidate 6", or perhaps it's supposed to allow an unit to pile in twice, but the wording is completely wack. 

 

As it is, the Stratagem just seems to tell you that you can skip step 1 of a fight phase and move directly to step 2 with the target unit. However, because step 3 specifies that you can only attack targets you charged in the previous part of the phase, you can't attack the units you piled in on...But that doesn't stop you from piling in on them to get them stuck in close combat, right? This seems like a powerful ability, close in with a shooty unit, deny their fall back and slaughter them on their own turn before charging the next. 

 

I've been fairly out of the loop for the past year or so, so if there's been any FAQ's that stop you from piling in on enemy units you didn't charge, I'm unaware of those. 

 

In addition, 6" consolidate is a whole lot of space and I can think of more than a few situations where that amount of movement can make the fall back denial stratagem unneeded. 

 

Another big question is, if I'm able to pile in on an unsuspecting enemy unit, can I use Honor the Chapter on the piling unit to make them fight the enemy unit?

Edited November 17, 2019 by Palmu

[Hymnblade]

I was misremembering the wording from the charge phase that forbids getting within 1" of non-charged units. You're right, there's no rule against piling in to other units - and the rule about only targeting units you charged only applies to units that charged. Yeah, that's just... super weird phrasing. I still suspect it's FAQ bait, but we'll see.

 

6" consolidate certainly could allow for some shenanigans, especially if you fight, consolidate 6", Honor the Chapter, and then consolidate another 6". A large squad could potentially take hostages from multiple units, even ones that were intially well out of charge range.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

You guys are mucking up the order of operations  a bit. To understand how this works, you need to consider the following:

 

A unit can only pile in if they are selected to fight.

 

A unit can only be selected to fight if they charged in the charge phase, or are within 1 inch of an enemy unit.

 

 

 

These two rules together mean that you can pile in 3(6 with our strat) in the following circumstances:

 

1: you charged. You can then pile in all of your units toward the nearest enemy models, fight, and consolidate toward the nearest enemy models. This includes piling in around them in a circle to get behind, killing them, and consolidating onto another unit. You can consolidate onto units you did not charge, but even if you activate the fight twice strat you can not fight them. That said, if you charged 2 units, one behidn the other, you could charge one, pile in, fight, consolidate onto the other, eat its attacks, end of phase pile in and fight, then consolidate another 6 into the next closest models. And, most importantly, you can still activate units that charged even if what they charged died to another unit, meaning that units who charged and now have no target can move a flat 12 toward the nearest enemy models.

 

2: You heroicly intervened. You can activate all of the above movements as long as an enemy remains within 1 inch. If the enemy you intervened into dies before you activate, then you lose the activation. Otherwise all other rules apply, including piling in around them, consolidating into new targets, etc. The best part about this is, you declared no charges, so if you Heroic into an enemy, activate, kill it, then consolidate into another unit, you can always fight twice to engage that unit as you aren't restricted by charge targets.

 

3: You were charged, or started in combat. This works the exact same way as a heroic. If there are no enemies within 1, you can not activate. However, if you can activate, you can do all of the 6" movement you want, and anything you consolidate into you can fight twice.

[arigatous]

There is nothing at the basic rules which prevents units from piling in. "Pile in" is just "You may move each model in the unit up to 3" – this move can be in any direction so long as the model ends the move closer to the nearest enemy model."

 

So RAW:

1. whenever one uses this stratagem, he can move the unit 3" (and get in CC by this move).

2. Then the unit can be selected to fight as by normal rules if it is in 1" from enemy unit.

3. The unit will pile in (for the second time) and fight.

4. After the fight this unit can consolidate up to 6".

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

There is nothing at the basic rules which prevents units from piling in. "Pile in" is just "You may move each model in the unit up to 3" – this move can be in any direction so long as the model ends the move closer to the nearest enemy model."

 

So RAW:

1. whenever one uses this stratagem, he can move the unit 3" (and get in CC by this move).

2. Then the unit can be selected to fight as by normal rules if it is in 1" from enemy unit.

3. The unit will pile in (for the second time) and fight.

4. After the fight this unit can consolidate up to 6".

 

 

Incorrect. I'm not sure what our policy is here for pasting in rules from the books, but as this is a core rule of the game and available in the basic online rules, I'll put it here for you:

 

"

1. Choose Unit to Fight With

 

Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase. This includes all units, not just those controlled by the player whose turn it is. All units that charged this turn fight first. The player whose turn it is picks the order in which these units fight. After all charging units have fought, the players alternate choosing eligible units to fight with (starting with the player whose turn it is) until all eligible units on both sides have fought once each. No unit can be selected to fight more than once in each Fight phase. If one player runs out of eligible units, the other player completes all of their remaining fights, one unit after another. A fight is resolved in the following steps:

 

2. Pile In

 

You may move each model in the unit up to 3" – this move can be in any direction so long as the model ends the move closer to the nearest enemy model.

"

 

These are pulled directly from the fight phase section of the core rules. You can not move to step 2 without having observed step 1. Read the entire paragraph.

[Medjugorje]

I think you all understand it wrong. I think it means IF you "pile in" or/and "consolidate its 6" instead of 3"

[Palmu]

That COULD be the meaning, but RAW it's 'pile in, and also consolidate 6"'.

 

Really likely to get a FAQ because the wording on that stratagem is just ludicrously bad for ANY intent.

[Medjugorje]

would  give us a few different options so.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

Pile in is a specific action taken within the fight phase. Abilities that reference it are refering to when you take a pile in, as they cant' be taken outside of the pile in requirements. Free movement outside of the move phase is called a move, because all forms of movement are moves. Pile ins, consolidations, etc are moves. Then, specificly, 'move as if it were the movement phase' allows move and advance.

 

Thus yes. When you use the strat and you pile in, it is 6 instead of 3 inches. You can't even activate a unit to fight without them having charged or being within 1.

 

All of that being said, if us rules types are wrong, and this actually does give us a free 6-12 inch move at the start of the fight phase, then GW has drained the blood of the Black Templars and replaced it with Jet Fuel, because holy hell we're fast.

[Palmu]

I'm not saying you aren't right - I'm saying that GW has screwed the pooch with the wording of a rule once again.

 

It's not like it's the only broken part right now either since RAW, we have the benefits of both IF and BT right now.

 

Eagerly awaiting a FAQ, unlikely that I'll manage a game before one comes out anyway. A 6" pile in+consolidate is nice too, that makes pinning opposing units excessively easy.

[Medjugorje]

I read it again and i am very sure its is how I described it. It would called "immediatly" if you should pile in now as extra movement.

[Acebaur]

It actually says, "Until the end of the phase, that unit can pile in.."  So that could mean a couple of things. Either it allows you to immediately pile in, which would mean that you can fight with that unit in that phase because the strat is used at the start of the Fight Phase. 

 

Another way to read it would be that the unit can pile in when pile in's normally happen which is technically after "choose unit to fight with" and thus they can become part of the combat but not actually fight. 

 

 

Either way we need clarification on this from GW. I suggest when the book drops to go ahead and submit it to their FAQ team so we can get it in the FAQ that will likely come within a few weeks after the book release. 

[Palmu]

I read it again and i am very sure its is how I described it. It would called "immediatly" if you should pile in now as extra movement.

Not necessarily, few stratagems call you to use their effect immediately, most simply activate at the time you're taking an action. 

 

The thing that convinces me the most that this Stratagem is not supposed to give 6" pile in and consolidate is the wording - We already have examples of effects that increase pile in and consolidate movements, and they are written VERY different from Devout Push. Canticle of Hate is a good example from our own book:

 

"In addition, when a friendly <CHAPTER> unit makes a pile-in or consolidate move within 6" of this model, models in that unit can move up to an additional 3".

 

Both pile in and consolidate are referenced to in the same sentence, whereas the wording of Devout Push clearly pushes the effects apart. For those not in the know, this is the wording of Devout Push:

 

"Until the end of that phase, that unit can pile in and, when that unit consolidates, it can move up to 6" instead of 3". 

 

If the goal was to give an unit 6" consolidate and pile in, then why on earth is it phrased this awkwardly when there are better options available? The CLEAR way of writing this would be:

 

"Until the end of that phase that unit can move up to 6" instead of 3" when it makes a pile-in or consolidate move."

 

This is the main reason I believe that GW has in actuality handed us one of the most powerful Stratagems available in the game right now - The other option is that the people in charge of writing these stratagems are nitwits. 

[gang_chong]

I have another question about Vicious Riposte. Does it generate a mortal wound per every unmodified save roll of 6? or just one mortal wound?

[Marshal Arthur]

A mortal wound for each 6. So if you make ten save rolls and roll two sixes you deal two mortal wounds.

[gang_chong]

A mortal wound for each 6. So if you make ten save rolls and roll two sixes you deal two mortal wounds.

That is wonderful, thanks !

[Medjugorje]

At the start i thougt this stratagem could be good but after a while I changed my mind. But then I ve done a little math.  This stratagem is propably one of the less played ones because its soooo situational but (like each thing what have to with dice) can be an absolutly gamebreaker. There are just two or three cirstumstances I would take this stratagem a 100 percent. If you play Terminators/Aggressors or any other big unit with lot of wounds (if its possible 5++) and they are attacked by 20 Genestealer or 30 Orkboys.

 

But honestly if you have a saving throw (normally against everything what have 0 to -3 AP) you need just 12 wounds and statistic says the enemy get 2 mortal wounds. The question is against which units is that a good deal. I mean if there are 2 dead guardsmen...?? I would say against each other MEQ unit without to much heavy weapons it can be good.

 

Or the enemy have just one wound and you fought already and its about a marker...

Edited November 19, 2019 by Medjugorje