Company Champion w. Blade of Triumph

[superwill]

Hi guys,

 

this one isn't necessarily specific to RG, but I guess I am curious about if/how people see him fitting into our army. Just one of the gems I noticed in the new book that I haven't seen anyone else talking about yet.

 

Smash captains are as popular as ever, but of course cost 144 points. Considering that even at that price point he's pretty amazing, I thought I'd see what people think of the new Company Champion build.

 

47 points gets you a company champion, which can be upgraded to a chapter champion for 1CP, giving it +1 A and L and -1 to hit in combat. The WLTs are a "no-thanks" IMHO, but the Blade of Triumph is a very interesting relic. Makes the Champion S6, -4, flat 3.

 

Compare him to a Slam Cpt.

CAPTAIN PROS:

 - Doesn't cost a CP or take up a relic (probably his best option is the 4D hammer?)

 - Can take a JP to fly and naturally deepstrike

 - Has a 3++

 - +2S

 - +1W

 - Is a HQ choice

 

CHAPTER CHAMPION PROS:
 - +1A

 - 6" heroic intervention

 - the ability to fight first even if he didn't charge

 - full re-rolls to hit and wound against characters (on top of the raven guard super-doctrine)

 - doesn't get -1 to hit from the hammer

 - costs almost a hundred points less

 - -1 to hit in combat

 - extra AP

 

Now, against soft infantry obviously the chapter champion performs better since he has an extra attack and isn't at -1WS. But even against a knight character, kind of the Slam signature move, I'm pretty sure that the Chapter Champion outperforms him there too (and that's with the Slam taking the 4D relic hammer to even things up a little). Regardless of who charged who, whether the super-doctrine is in effect or not, I'm pretty sure that the Chapter Champion always does slightly better because of the rerolls to hit and wound and extra attack more than balancing out the +2S. Which is pretty amazing for a 47 point model!

 

I guess the other question is delivery, which for other armies might make him not that useful. But for us, we have the ability to DS him with SFTS or for those already running Lias. We can put MoA on him, or shadowstep him, or echo of the ravenspire (under-rated IMO) or all sorts of things.

I'm not proclaiming him as better than a Slam Cpt, but I'm saying considering how successful that guy has been, maybe this dude is a worthy sidekick? In the right army I can see him being decent for sure.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I haven't really seen any of the loyalist stuff from faith and fury, so all I can comment on is the information you've provided.

 

First thing to consider is that people often put mastercrafted and/or sword of the imperium on their smash captains. Raven guard very often take master of ambush and ex tenebris, so that smash captain is costing 1-2 CP on top of its points cost. All this is to say that CP investment will usually be about even between the two, at least to start.

 

So let's do some math on the damage output, without sword of the imperium but with mastercrafted hammer.

 

Vs t3 4+

Champ: 16.59 wounds Cap: 15.93 wounds

 

Vs t4-5 3+

Champ: 16.59 wounds Cap: 13.22 wounds

 

Vs t6 3+

Champ: 15.03 wounds Cap: 13.22 wounds

 

Vs t7 3+

Champ: 12.96 wounds Cap: 13.22 wounds

 

Vs t8 3+

Champ: 12.96 wounds Cap: 10.51 wounds

 

 

So we can see that the only bracket the captain outperforms the champion is against toughness 7 with 3+ save, and only by 0.26 wounds. Adding sword of the imperium to the champion will improve his efficacy against toughness 6 and 7 and the captains output against toughness 8 if added to him.

 

Vs t6 3+

Champ: 19.35 wounds Cap: 15.87 wounds

 

Vs t7 3+

Champ: 17.54 wounds Cap: 15.87 wounds

 

Vs t8 3+

Champ: 15.12 wounds Cap: 15.87 wounds

 

Sword of the imperium makes it so the captain slightly outperforms the champion by 0.75 wounds. However, it's important to note that against any non vehicles in the toughness 6-7 range that the champion can use Lay Low the Tyrant to increase his wound roll. As far as I know, there's very few toughness 8 non-vehicle characters for this to come into effect.

 

Now usually, that would be that. The captains best performance only edges the champion by 0.75 wounds, after 2 CP and 100 more points invested. But, the captain can be utilised to unlock a battalion, while the champion can't, meaning that captain is really 3 CP more efficient. He also has the jump pack to save on another CP for positioning, and also lets him pursue other targets if he survives the initial one.

 

I have more to go through, namely their output vs non-characters and to see if a 5++ and -1 to hit is better than a straight 3+++, but thatll be later on in the day. Tldr for now, is that in straight up damage, the champion is a much more points efficient choice.

[ShinyRhino]

Thev lack of a jump pack is the death blow. People cram smash captains down opponents' faces, which is what makes them work. The champion just can't do that, and is avoidable. Even if you deliver him via Rhino or something else, he can't follow up his initial charge with more 12" moves.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Well, pods can deliver him turn 1 for every chapter.

 

Raven guard can use strike from the shadows for deepstrike; raptors are looking viable for melee bomb. You can do a lot with an extra 100 points.

[ShinyRhino]

Well, pods can deliver him turn 1 for every chapter.

 

Raven guard can use strike from the shadows for deepstrike; raptors are looking viable for melee bomb. You can do a lot with an extra 100 points.

True. My concern is the lack of follow up speed. Of course, I don't run a smash Captain, only face them, so I might be missing the general utility of the single model beatstick. I'm biased against it.

[Dracos]

I’m not in to getting deep into non primaris tactics but for a hundred points you can buy a librarian to slingshot him (on a 7+) into position and the librarian helps fill a battalion slot.

 

Too many moving parts though. Even with SftS delivery is a real issue. As a footdlogger he also needs a buff for the charge also imo to be more a consideration.

 

 

I plan on doing a Primaris conversation for a slamcaptain but I’d never use him as a single model beatstick. Always would plan to have him buffing other units and adding his weight. One on one is a suckers bet. That said sometimes one must gamble but never would use it as a Plan A .

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

It's an interesting thought from a value perspective. However given these threads seem to crop-up often "Is this the next smash-captain?" in an attempt to find a cheaper alternative, I find myself often re-iterating the same points:

 

• The BA Smash Cap, in its original incarnation, had a specific purpose: to one-round a knight - with decent rolls. If you did not roll well, you could get a second pass via death or end of the round (via Strategem). 
• This company champion does this - to some degree - but there a few critical missing components:
  • No 3++ is huge against big beefy targets. The Champion only having a 3+/5+ means he will get curb-stomped by a lot of things that he doesn't kill
  • His re-rolls are his biggest value here, and they only work against character models. Great, but limited. The true Smash Cap can be a threat to any KEQ, this guy only threatens (well) Character keyword KEQs.
  • As others have mentioned, Jump Packs. The loss of mobility - specifically speed and the ability to jump over screens - will reduce his effectiveness against a capable opponent.

That all being said - he is an absolute bonkers amount of value for his cost. I guess if you find yourself playing a list with 2 spare CP to burn (I never have), you could consider running him as the worlds cheapest psuedo-distraction-carnifex. He isn't really in the truest since (since the DC is intended to get shot at and eat a ton of fire) but he will eat a ton of fire the turn after he gets exposed from combat, and shot to pieces. At the end of the day he's still a marine with a crappy save and stats.

 

I suppose if you have extra delivery method lying around he's worth considering, it's just to me he doesn't have a specific job, per se.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Thats a very good point about not really having a dedicated job; his strength is too niche to be a good flex pick, and doesn't provide any other utility outside curb stomping units in melee. Compare that to say an oppressors end phobos captain who can provide a reroll aura, his own positioning tool, an anti character gun and anti reserve bubble.

 

I did some quick math, and ultimately the -1 and 5++ isn't as good against enemy smash captains as the 3++. Any "big" melee weapon (high strength, -2 ap or more and 2 or more damage) tends to force enough wounds through. Transhuman physiology gets around that to a degree, but I'd only ever recommend it to survive a knight. That being said, the save is mostly a problem vs shooting since the champ mangles any melee character before they get to swing.

 

I think the champ is great value if you play a lot of opponents that try to dunk you with smash captains or other aggressive characters like disco lords. Let him heroically intervene in and show them what 40 some points can do.

[superwill]

However given these threads seem to crop-up often "Is this the next smash-captain?" in an attempt to find a cheaper alternative, I find myself often re-iterating the same points:

Oh man, honestly, my pet peeve is “better than smash captain” posts haha. I’ve left untold comments on various blogs about why some new build that can do 50D is not better than the original. I played BA for five years and was part of the original conversation where we theorycrafted the smashcaptain and named him (not claiming the ‘credit’ for him, just that I was there when he was born haha). I’ve taken the OG Slam Captain to about seven or eight tournaments and he’s been MVP at most of them. I even had a RG variant at a tourney last weekend.

 

I think I shot this thread in the foot when I opened with a comparison to a Slam. I attempted to say that this wasn’t intended as a “which is better?” or that this guy could be some alternative (because they’d fill different roles). Only that he seems to have similar suicidal beatstick potential and a third of the investment.

 

I think most of what’s worth saying has been covered by others. I personally don’t really worry too much about the slightly decreased durability. I mainly take the stormshield on the cpt coz it’s a cheap way to burn a little fire, but I’ve never had an opponent break a sweat trying to drop a captain even with a SS. They’re a one-shot missile, and once they’ve done their duty for the emperor they will die.

 

I guess the thing to consider is that here with the Champion you’ve got a similar little missile. Pure offence, suicide mission. (The other champion relic gives him a 2+/4++ but I don’t think there’s much point). But anyone who can potentially drop a vehicle or knight and only costs 47 points and 1 CP is worth considering. For me the possible uses might be:

- if you’re taking a drop pod and have a spare slot.

- if you are raptors with Lias, why wouldn’t you bring this guy?

- if you’re already running a librarian slingshotting characters, why not shoot this guy T3 or something?

- if you’re running a gunline and looking for a cheap counter-charge unit. That 6” heroic intervention and striking first can come in handy.

- if you’re looking for a cheap elite to finish a vanguard.