Darkness in the Blood - Spoilers incoming

[RikuEru]

There are "Darkness in the Blood" Spoilers running around by now, especially regarding Mephiston, Dante, the Sanguinor and how the Tyranids engage the Blood Angels, which could also make their way into PA3:

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/dxwwoe/interesting_bits_from_the_darkness_in_the_blood/

Edited November 18, 2019 by RikuEru

[Marshal Loss]

This does not sound like a book I'd enjoy, lol

 

 

-Legion era marines are functionally immortal. They did not/do not age like 40K era marines.

 

Huh? I do wish they'd try to be more consistent with these things. Seems to clash with Sigismund's death in Black Legion

[DarkChaplain]

I actually like it, pending context and delivery. Mephiston has been set up for so long, and with his own 3rd novel by Hinks due soon as well, this could be big (and go right into Psychic Awakening book 3). A lot of stuff can be interpreted many different ways, fitting your own conceptions of the lore, and it links together a few odd bits from before.

Sounds like a lot of great stuff to look forward to reading for myself.

[Kelborn]

Well that's...something.

 

I'm no Blood Angels fan nor am I an expert about their lore but it seems that Guy's doing some pretty interesting and great things with them, imho. Though I'm not in the position to judge upon that. Surely gonna share it with some BA loving friends of mine. Maybe I'll give the recently released BA stuff a try.

 

All the golden/ black angel stuff sounds intriguing, especially when "Sanguinius" shows up. I can already hear the fanboys crying "He's back! He will be back!"

 

Oh and before I forgett: I'm expecting a Valrak vid latest on Wednesday.

Edited November 18, 2019 by Kelborn

[Sandlemad]

A lot of this sounds awful, particularly all the warp nonsense, and I like warp nonsense. What is gained or made more interesting by having Baal be another mysterious warp-touched planet fought over by two metaphysical angels? What is gained by literalising and making more Dragonball-Z the inner conflict in the Blood Angels' character? Why does Mephiston need to be levelled up into even more of an OTT edgelord uber-protagonist?

 

Also Haley continues to plough that 'actually tyranids can have feelings and they hate the BA above all' furrow most of all, which is just fundamentally contrary to what makes the tyranids interesting. The hive mind being another warp entity is just... dull and reductive. Overexplaining and trying to make everthing fit a simplified schema (as with the greater good becoming a warp entity in War of Secrets).

 

When Haley's on, he's on but this all sounds like spitballed fanfiction, midi-cholrian stuff. And even at his best, Haley's prose and characterisation isn't strong enough to make this sort of thing easy to overlook.

[Pathstrider]

Reminds me a lot of the Fenris stuff in wolfbane (not surprising of course given that was Haley as well)

[DarkChaplain]

Mephiston's role has been headed this way for the better past of two decades. The only thing that's changing lately is that GW is advancing plotlines and is spelling out more about what his eventual fate might be, instead of just telling us that he's intricately linked to the Blood Angels' survival. He's always been a special, super powerful psyker dude, and tying it back to pseudo-mythical warp shenanigans and Sanguinius' legacy is a good thing in that regard.

 

Baal being relevant in a warp-stuffy sense is also not that far fetched considering its history. The duality of the Blood Angels has always been reflected by their planet as well, it having two moons that literally threw nukes at each other to the point of ruining the world. There's a lot of room to explore the whole thing introduced in this novel within the context of what we've known - and that's only if we take the visions literally in the first place, rather than hallucinations and anthropomorphizations of the characters' near-broken state of mind and constant warring within himself. Even the spoilers as posted still have room for ambiguity in what's going on.

 

As for the Tyranids, did we all suddenly forget that they're a constantly evolving species? What's so strange about one Hive Fleet zeroing in on the prey of its last few centuries, a war that has brought forth a couple new mainline creatures with high psychic potential, just to then be denied the ultimate victory at the last moment? They've been trying for Baal for most of the current realtime decade, through Shield of Baal over Devastation of Baal to Psychic Awakening 3. The Hivemind has to be semi-aware at a bare minimum, and who is to say that its continued presence as a shadow in the warp isn't also serving to influence and corrupt it in places, especially during a time where reality has been ripped asunder and we are told that numerous minor gods are nearly given birth to due to the impact it has on humanity and xenos, just before the instability of it all snuffs them out?

 

We've always known that the Hivemind "exists" in the warp and interferes with the Gods, and the Astronomican. We've also known that psychic blanks severed the ties between Hivemind and organisms. What, exactly, is the issue with them clearly stating that the Hivemind exists on the warp plane as well?

 

The Tyranids are also confirmed to be part of the Blood Angels plotline going forward, with Psyckic Awakening 3 featuring both them and Mephiston. I think maybe holding one's horses and see what happens, especially considering that the studio worked closely with Hinks and Haley on the Blood Angels stuff, is advisable.

Edited November 18, 2019 by DarkChaplain

[Marshal Loss]

1. Mephiston's role/journey has been ambiguous for the better part of two decades. Let's not characterize this as the only path down which authors could have trod.
2. The Hive Mind had a presence in the warp, but it wasn't a warp entity. Having a presence and impact is one thing, being just an "alien warp entity" is something else entirely. Adding desires and personality to the HM risks undermining the alien otherworldliness of the Tyranids. That's a big part of what made them such a terrifying threat: they weren't concerned with personal/geographical/temporal issues, they were a threat from beyond the galaxy's borders. If the spoilers are accurate, this is a big step towards actorial homogenization in the broader setting.

But yes, obviously we will have to wait for the full picture before rendering a verdict. But I have little faith in Haley having the necessary skill to make this sort of thing work. We shall see.

[Sandlemad]

Mephiston's role has been headed this way for the better past of two decades. The only thing that's changing lately is that GW is advancing plotlines and is spelling out more about what his eventual fate might be, instead of just telling us that he's intricately linked to the Blood Angels' survival. He's always been a special, super powerful psyker dude, and tying it back to pseudo-mythical warp shenanigans and Sanguinius' legacy is a good thing in that regard.

 

Baal being relevant in a warp-stuffy sense is also not that far fetched considering its history. The duality of the Blood Angels has always been reflected by their planet as well, it having two moons that literally threw nukes at each other to the point of ruining the world. There's a lot of room to explore the whole thing introduced in this novel within the context of what we've known - and that's only if we take the visions literally in the first place, rather than hallucinations and anthropomorphizations of the characters' near-broken state of mind and constant warring within himself. Even the spoilers as posted still have room for ambiguity in what's going on.

 

That he's always been like that doesn't make him a particularly deep or interesting character, just one freighted with a magical destiny that's repeatedly hammered home and expressed in him being the darkest, most tormented, strongest character around. That now he's somehow evolving beyond astartes, beyong even primaris doesn't help. I realise that 'he was always terrible and Haley/GW managed to make him worse' probably isn't all that constructive but still.

 

As Baal, it already had a perfectly interesting DAoT/Age of Strife back story and the duality of the BA doesn't gain from being literalised like this (though even Dante or whoever musing on the symmetry between their world and their character would come off as blunt and on the nose). "It's their geneseed and also it's their primarch's psychic legacy but get this, it's also their cursed homeworld". It's just excessive, ladelling on way after way for them to be super special. They're not more interesting for it, any more than Fenris is for being a super special magic warp-world as Pathstrider brought up (which in turn detracts from the interesting in-universe back and forth about the VIth legion's hypocrisy).

 

 

As for the Tyranids, did we all suddenly forget that they're a constantly evolving species? What's so strange about one Hive Fleet zeroing in on the prey of its last few centuries, a war that has brought forth a couple new mainline creatures with high psychic potential, just to then be denied the ultimate victory at the last moment? The Hivemind has to be semi-aware at a bare minimum, and who is to say that its continued presence as a shadow in the warp isn't also serving to influence and corrupt it in places, especially during a time where reality has been ripped asunder and we are told that numerous minor gods are nearly given birth to due to the impact it has on humanity and xenos, just before the instability of it all snuffs them out?

 

We've always known that the Hivemind "exists" in the warp and interferes with the Gods, and the Astronomican. We've also known that psychic blanks severed the ties between Hivemind and organisms. What, exactly, is the issue with them clearly stating that the Hivemind exists on the warp plane as well?

 

I'm not even talking about in-universe stuff, it's how as far back as Valedor and then again in Devastation of Baal Haley has pushed an interpretation of the hive mind as "a petty and vindictive being that desires not only the destruction of its enemies but also their degradation and torture". That's not necessarily humanising them but it does undercut their amoral, loosely Darwinian alienness. Like, we have multiple instances of spiteful vengeful overbeings in 40k: the chaos gods. This is the hivemind intruding on their conceptual territory - both for the warp entity stuff and the personality stuff - at the cost of the tyranids being barely perceptable as sentient and/or deeply, coldly alien in a biological, material way. I know there's folks out there who want a more personable, relatable, less alien hive mind but I really feel like they're missing the tyranids' schtick.

 

You mention ambiguities and room for interesting stuff but a lot of what Haley does feels like it's a matter of tying things up neatly, like reducing 40k to a universe where warp stuff happens so almost no mystery is allowed to exist outside of that framework. It's making the tyranids fit that neat schema by sanding off their Thing. Same as with the Pharos. Nothing is added by having the hive fleets turn towards the galaxy because of a minor plot point in the heresy books, it's just a way to sew their story in earlier and give a nerdy dopamine rush of "I recognise that" connectivity. It's Dath Vader and C-3PO.

 

Honestly, for a comparison this seems about as unnecessary and unasked for as a lot of the stuff in the Valdor novella. Unlike Wraight though I don't think Haley's a good enough writer to make a book that lets me skim over it with a 'yeah, fine, whatever' to the better elements. Ultimately even if Haley finds a way for it to technically 'make sense' by referencing older background and/or simply adding more content, I don't feel like the BA or tyranid background is actually improved in quality or depth by any of this.

Edited November 18, 2019 by Sandlemad

[RikuEru]

Remember this is a hastily written synopsis by someone - I would assume - not as deep into the lore and as caring for canon as WE lot are.

 

I doubt the way he describes some of the stuff is written that plainly in the book itself.

...maybe one of our fraters got the Book too and can shed a light on it.

[DukeLeto69]

So how about this line from Reddit:

 

What's also revealed in the Warp is that the Emperor is stirring

[pandion40]

I’m mixed on the spoilers, I can see potential there but reason for worry to. In my opinion in my opinion the minute Dante was named Warden of Imperium Nihilus the writing was on the wall, both the Blood Angels and Baal had to change in order for Dante to even have a chance of believably leading even a fraction of the imperium Nihilus. But it’s not a choice between stasis and change, I despise the way Disney took Star Wars but that doesn’t mean I wanted it to not change I just didn’t like the specific direction they went. GW now faces a similar challenge as they expand on the rift and Imperium Nihilus in particular.

 

The pre rift Blood Angels and Baal were not set up to lead a significant fraction of the imperium, that wasn’t their goal or job. I can see alot of potential changes to some very cherished background that makes me both very excited and very nervous the Dante and Mephiston novels plus PA 3 are our first glimpses of where GW will take the angels. I think the Blood Angels like a lot of the Imperium Nihilus chapters are going to be tearing up the old rule book of what Astartes are allowed to do but the Blood angels will have greater resources to potentially make greater changes. Maybe even a return to legion states even if they nominally call themselves a chapter still.

 

The two figures in the warp plus the nids holding a grudge make me nervous, I agree that the rift should have a larger effect on the sons of the Angel than other chapters so it’s the specifics that will make or break it for me. Love the idea of the rift creating and immediately destroying new gods as the warp churned though. Also love the idea that Deamons are now so common that mind wipes or purges to stop knowledge spreading is becoming unworkable, saw a teaser for that in the Astorath short story.

Edited November 18, 2019 by pandion40

[Kelborn]

Alright guys.

I will reread this thread and add spoiler tags when I'm home. Even implications and discussing certain things without naming them directly can ruin the reading experience and expectations of some fraters.

 

One should have the chance of choosing between reading spoilers or to avoid them, as it was written in the updated board rules.

Edited November 18, 2019 by Kelborn

[Shinros]

On the tyranids people forget about the tiamat storyline. That clearly shows that the hive mind is plotting and the fact its allowing GSC to go to the world, bond with it and then allows them to leave. This thread was started in tyranid codex and was continued in the GSC codex.

 

I will post the thread when I get home, but overall I agree with Chaplain.

[Sandlemad]

On the tyranids people forget about the tiamat storyline. That clearly shows that the hive mind is plotting and the fact its allowing GSC to go to the world, bond with it and then allows them to leave. This thread was started in tyranid codex and was continued in the GSC codex.

 

I mean that's excellent though, that's the tyranids plotting and it was done in a good horror-ish way by playing on the mystery of the whole thing, i.e. what are they building? Same for using the GSC cultists in a new way for their own cold alien ends. There's a lot of potential there in their barely discernible motives, makes them more than just animals while still keeping the unfathomable (but still grounded, material) alienness of them.

 

It's quite different from Haley's take from his previous books and seemingly this one, that the hive mind can be malicious and vengeful and actively spiteful. These are too human traits, too small and easily comprehensible and making the hive mind closer to chaos god territory.

[Shinros]

Issue is though is that we are human, its difficult to write an alien entity without some form of human emotion. Its a similar compliant that I have seen with eldar and even space marines where they are written as essnetially human.

 

That tiamat thread to me is the hive mind acting like a bonafide god. Hell, on dakka people are swearing up and down that it means nothing and the hive mind can't think or act beyond eating.

 

How Haley is writing the hive mind doesn't bother me since he has to write an antagonistic force for the blood angels. Considering the new awakening book the nids will be their main foe from now on. Can't just leave a god as an unknown quantity forever.

 

I think the description that the hive mind reduced the warp to a still pool is pretty cool myself.

[caladancid]

This is just like reading the thread on Devastation of Baal all over again.  Some lines get summarized and pulled out, then disected and critiqued to death- meanwhile the majority of people complaining have (very apparently to people who have read the book) never read the actual passage.

 

I haven't read the novel yet, seems like I have a bit of a wait on it still, but come on lets reserve some of this criticism until eyes go on words (in context with other words).  GH can write some puzzling and not so great stuff at times, but his Blood Angels have been fantastic so far.

[Sandlemad]

This is just like reading the thread on Devastation of Baal all over again.  Some lines get summarized and pulled out, then disected and critiqued to death- meanwhile the majority of people complaining have (very apparently to people who have read the book) never read the actual passage.

 

I haven't read the novel yet, seems like I have a bit of a wait on it still, but come on lets reserve some of this criticism until eyes go on words (in context with other words).  GH can write some puzzling and not so great stuff at times, but his Blood Angels have been fantastic so far.

 

Normally I'd agree with you and be an adherent of that approach but like... I've read two books of Haley doing tyranids. I've read how he does big metaphysical stuff in Dante and Titandeath. Based on those and their continuity in what we have here, I can't imagine what he could do with this material (or even whatever version of this material that's been filtered through the summariser) that wouldn't be dreadful.

 

But yeah, probably worth waiting for the actual text.

Edited November 18, 2019 by Sandlemad

[Indefragable]

Every time Haley comes out with a book, I am generally far more impressed with the actual book than what spoilers lead me to believe (shame on me for always reading the spoilers first?). Wolfsbane was the exception, but that’s more because I thought the entire plot line of the book was dumb more than anything that Haley really did/not do. So I am going to learn my lesson and not get in a tizzy about this stuff ahead of time.

That being said, based on the spoilers I do read, a couple thoughts:

-Tyranids having a bit of a personality with the Hive Mind. Potentially disastrous, especially since the Necrons got some flavor and are no longer the unintelligible robot doom faction...but if well done, I think it can get good. In Devastation of Baal the line (paraphrased) “it [Hive Mind] wanted time hurt these ones in red” as part of why Leviathan sought out Baal as a specific source of destruction. Don’t forget that Baal and it’s systems are basically an island of habitable life in a vast swath of inhospitable space, so an organic race like the ‘Nids would be actively withering away from lack of resources by attacking Baal, when plenty other more sustainable avenues of attack can be found.

...where that can be well done would be if it was a more animalistic form of vengeance rather than an intelligent life one. I’m thinking of your dog that just does not like that other dog down the street. Or the lion on the Savannah that has a particular rival.

...as for the Hive Mind as a presence in the warp...again, I think if well done it can come off as a predatory species that has learned to hunt in another dimension as well...that creepy cool kind of terror that comes from realizing animals can terrifyingly smart . If it starts turning into elaborate dialogue over dinner with the Hive Mind, than that’s where I’m out.

-Baal as a place of destiny. Yea, there’s already too much “born under a chosen star” stuff in 40k in general, so it could come off as a bit much in the Blood Angels-wearing-blood red robes-drinking-blood wine-from-blood red goblets-encrusted with blood red jewels-in-a-hall-with-blood red walls sort of way.
Done well, it can pull the entire lore together in a way that signifies so many things. I have a personal theory on this potential for Baal in a different thread, but it depends on a lot of things.

-Guy Haley was the author who is on record as saying “Sanguinius is dead and not coming back.” ....so I find it quite amusing when “Sanguinius” says “bro, I’m DEAD!”

-It’s a cool nod to the long established lore of Mephiston being a being (hehehe) of singular power and psychic might that he basically can act as a mini Astronomicon

-The angels-and-demons duality of the BA being given literal form as a golden warp angel and a dark warp angel is—again—a bit on the nose, but my personal stomachability for it depends—like Baal as a place of destiny—on how wide reaching such concepts are in the setting overall. Aka if that sort of thing is the currency of the setting and every faction gets some on-the-nose aspects like that, then I will roll my eyes and accept it. If not, I don’t know how I feel.

-maybe it’s just the spoilers, but it seems like this “3rd Dante” book focuses more on Mephiston than Dante himself.

Edited November 18, 2019 by Indefragable

[Shinros]

Right so I'm back home going to post the extracts for Tiamet. 

 

From the Tyranid Codex 

 

Call to the Void 

 

"Upon the world of Heinrich's March, worshippers of the Dark gods work their tortured slaves to death as they attempt to erect a monolithic ziggurat in honour of their foul patrons. A new and hidden cult propagates admist the persecuted masses: the Choir of the Void. it's leader, the blind prophet known as the Conduit, preaches that a savior race from beyond the stars awaits them in a far-off place, a paradise planet where they will find salvation. In a great uprising, millions of slaves overwhelm their masters and commander several dozen cargo hulks. The armada of the faithful makes for the nearby Tiamet System, guided by the visions of the Conduit."

 

 

Question is who gave him the visions? 

 

Next the GSC codex that came out after. 

 

"Ziaphoria, the repugnant and anomalous jungle planet claimed by Hive Fleet Tiamet, becomes a site of a disturbing new development in the curse of tyrannoforming, the hyper-accelerated biological process that overcomes the prey worlds of the Hive Mind. There the conquering hive fleets have constructed vast psychic resonators of fleshy, encephalitic material - some of the size of mountains, some large enough to cover entire continents. 

 

The world forms the end point of a vast pilgrimage of genestealer cultists from the nearby Heinrich's march. Led by a blind prophet known as the Conduit, they depart from a world plagued by the Dark Gods, plying the stars to eventually land upon Ziaphoria's pulsating crust. Those who touch the corrupted earth with their bare flesh are instantly bought in thrall to it - an convince their brethren to go back into space as missionaries, carrying the Creed of Tiamet to as many imperial worlds as possible. They are first of dozens of interstellar pilgrimages that seek out Ziaphoria, and in doing so, add to its power. The Tyranids of Hive Fleet Tiamet defend the planet so ferociously it is declared Quaratine Extremis and abandoned entirely by the Imperium. 

 

Only the Deathwatch of nearby Haltmoat and Inquisitor Kryptman, who comes out of exile to join them - have any inkling of the threat posed by the immense psychic resonator of Tiamet. The theories they discuss long into the night are so wild, and the other threats facing the Imperium so dire, that they are given little credence by the wider Inquisition." 

 

Here's the thing, Haley can't just write whatever he wants considering he's not even really allowed to talk about the Black Rage when it comes to Primaris. let's not forget we also now have a Tau warp god being spawned by their auxiliaries. The GSC codex even makes note that more psykers are popping up across the galaxy. Heck, we are dealing with a set of campaign books called "psychic awakening." The hive mind is not a simple animal concerned with feeding, at least that's what I now think in light of the information coming out.

Edited November 19, 2019 by Shinros

[Chapter Master Valrak]

Well that's...something.

 

I'm no Blood Angels fan nor am I an expert about their lore but it seems that Guy's doing some pretty interesting and great things with them, imho. Though I'm not in the position to judge upon that. Surely gonna share it with some BA loving friends of mine. Maybe I'll give the recently released BA stuff a try.

 

All the golden/ black angel stuff sounds intriguing, especially when "Sanguinius" shows up. I can already hear the fanboys crying "He's back! He will be back!"

 

Oh and before I forgett: I'm expecting a Valrak vid latest on Wednesday.

 

 

I love Sang, but he has to remain dead, if he was to return it would destroy his entire character and the HH story, also TUESDAY VIDEO TITLE, 'MR WING IS BACK' 

 

 

 

 

Legion era marines are functionally immortal. They did not/do not age like 40K era marines.

 

This confused me, we saw that Sigsmund was old when he took on Abbadon.

[The Red Thirst]

 

 

 

I love Sang, but he has to remain dead, if he was to return it would destroy his entire character and the HH story, also TUESDAY VIDEO TITLE, 'MR WING IS BACK' 

 

 

 

 

 

I dont think its going to be as blatant as Papa Sang coming back from the dead.... my fan theory is Mephiston may evolve (inb4 pokemon memes)  into another aspect of the Angel, similar to 'The Red Angel' or like 'Imperious, Avatar of the Astronomican' in AD-Bs Black Legion novel.

 

The Emperor has Daemons too ^_^

 

[Kelborn]

@Valrak: hehe, I'm with ya on this. It would ruin more adding something good.

 

@Red Thirst

I'm still convinced that Sangi and Ferrus should lead the LotD, at least the latter. Sangi could be an embodied aspect of Big E. A Warden or such.

[b1soul]

On Legion marines being immortal, Iacton Qruze did not give me that impression at all

[Pathstrider]

On legionary immortality l’m prepared to give the benefit of the doubt. They were designed to be immortal all being well - In the case of Sisigmund old battle wounds might have been enough to slow him down. In other cases there might have been gene seed flaws - either the signs of the degeneration that means Marines are no longer immortal or implantation errors (HH era recruitment is said to be a lot wider and more lax than later after all)