How would you change Guilliman?

[L30n1d4s]

What if Guilliman was actually the same (points cost/rules), but he is a HQ choice in any UM detachment (as has already been suggested) and he also allowed UM forces in his army to operate alongside allies without losing any bonuses (i.e. Combat Doctrines, UM super doctrine)?

 

This would allow you to take him easily and also give UM the option to operate alongside Imperial allies at full efficiency. This also means he could use his buffs to other Imperium forces more often, which would give him better value.

 

Not only is this fluffy, it also represents Guilliman's role as not just the Primarch of the UMs, but the Emperor's Regent for the ENTIRE Imperium. Additionally, gameplay-wise, this helps UM armies be even more versatile(which is kind of their schtick) as they are the only Astartes force that could use all their abilities AND supplement their forces with other Imperium battle groups (making up for their lack of "raw power" compared to other Space Marine chapters).

 

Basically, this would make it a choice... want to play pure UMs, then probably more efficient points wise to go with Calgar and a Lieutenant... want to do Imperium "soup" with a strong UM core... take Guilliman instead... now you at least have good reasons for taking both Guilliman and Calgar, based on what you are trying to do with your army overall.

Edited November 22, 2019 by L30n1d4s

[Subtleknife]

Personally I dont like that idea if I'm honest. I want Gman to be good because he augments ultras not because he allows us to soup up well. But I just want to play pure ultras so maybe ik biased.

[Waking Dreamer]

What if Guilliman was actually the same (points cost/rules), but he is a HQ choice in any UM detachment (as has already been suggested) and he also allowed UM forces in his army to operate alongside allies without losing any bonuses (i.e. Combat Doctrines, UM super doctrine)?

 

This would allow you to take him easily and also give UM the option to operate alongside Imperial allies at full efficiency. This also means he could use his buffs to other Imperium forces more often, which would give him better value.

 

Not only is this fluffy, it also represents Guilliman's role as not just the Primarch of the UMs, but the Emperor's Regent for the ENTIRE Imperium. Additionally, gameplay-wise, this helps UM armies be even more versatile(which is kind of their schtick) as they are the only Astartes force that could use all their abilities AND supplement their forces with other Imperium battle groups (making up for their lack of "raw power" compared to other Space Marine chapters).

 

Basically, this would make it a choice... want to play pure UMs, then probably more efficient points wise to go with Calgar and a Lieutenant... want to do Imperium "soup" with a strong UM core... take Guilliman instead... now you at least have good reasons for taking both Guilliman and Calgar, based on what you are trying to do with your army overall.

 

Thematically, the idea is very fitting and cool...but how would that be for the meta balance?

 

I'm thinking having say Guilliman + Ultramarines (with Combat Doctrines + Super Doctrines) + Imperial Knight = next level of power creep. 

 

I could be wrong since I don't play UM or IKs, but maybe having UM at full capabilities with the cherry pick of other Imperium units would be a bit much. The approach to bonus abilities for mono-SM / Codex and even mono-Chapter is generally a positive movement imo, and while Guilliman is a unique unit (with more of an overarching connection to the Imperium as a whole), making soup distinctly better again (if Im not wrong about the meta balance) is probably not a Pandora's box people want to open up again. 

[L30n1d4s]

OK, another option, if you don't want to go the Imperial Soup/Regent of the Emperor route... what if Guilliman could choose to have any three of the UM warlord traits, after deployment, but before the first battle round begins?

 

Then he would be highly adaptable to who you are fighting (which is DEFINITELY fluffy), you would have an incentive to take him instead of automatically defaulting to Calgar/Lieutenant, and you could truly use him as the "centerpiece" of your army... with the options of Regenerating CPs, giving a nearby UM unit Tactical Doctrine anytime, allowing an aura of fall back and shoot with no penalty, giving an aura of Heroic Intervention, doing HI himself at 6", and/or causing additional MWs on every 6 to Wound (so his Sword would do D3 + 1 MWs per 6 to wound, if he selects Paragon of War trait), you could add a great deal of value and versatility to him, which good players could maximize each game (and again, give UM players reasons to take him over other options).

Edited November 23, 2019 by L30n1d4s

[Waking Dreamer]

^ Yeah I like it!

 

It's not so much as giving Guilliman brand new extra bonuses, but the ability to use the existing UM rules to maximum efficiency!

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

You can easily have three traits with two characters.

[Subtleknife]

I have thought that another route you could take with Gman is that he can grant one unit a turn full rerolls to wounds. Everyone else just gets the re roll to hit and re roll 1 ton wound.

[L30n1d4s]

A final option to make Guilliman unique from / a competitive choice vis a vis Calgar and other UM HQs is to have him give all UM units withing 6" ALL three Combat Doctrines at once, regardless of the turn or Combat Doctrine that the rest of the army is on.

 

This is less outright powerful as the old reroll all to Wound aura, but it does make those units within 6" of him exceptionally versatile.... imagine a Tactical squad that could move and shoot with its heavy weapon with no penalty, has -1AP on both its Heavy Weapon and Assault/Rapid Fire weapons, and can charge after shooting with -1 AP to its melee weapons as well, all in the same turn.

 

This would definitely make Guilliman unique from other HQ options, would make UM armies even more versatile/flexible (again, that is supposed to be their niche ability), but would not necessarily make him an "auto-take" in competitive games like he used to be.... I think this would give players a real reason to consider bringing Roboute, but also have reasons not to bring him if they were going for a different playstyle (i.e. due to his high points cost, if you were operating a widely dispersed force on the table top, etc.).

Edited November 23, 2019 by L30n1d4s

[Subtleknife]

Oh I think that is a very good idea. Like the ability to have all doctrines at once. Very fluffy too

[emperorpants]

A final option to make Guilliman unique from / a competitive choice vis a vis Calgar and other UM HQs is to have him give all UM units withing 6" ALL three Combat Doctrines at once, regardless of the turn or Combat Doctrine that the rest of the army is on.

This is less outright powerful as the old reroll all to Wound aura, but it does make those units within 6" of him exceptionally versatile.... imagine a Tactical squad that could move and shoot with its heavy weapon with no penalty, has -1AP on both its Heavy Weapon and Assault/Rapid Fire weapons, and can charge after shooting with -1 AP to its melee weapons as well, all in the same turn.

This would definitely make Guilliman unique from other HQ options, would make UM armies even more versatile/flexible (again, that is supposed to be their niche ability), but would not necessarily make him an "auto-take" in competitive games like he used to be.... I think this would give players a real reason to consider bringing Roboute, but also have reasons not to bring him if they were going for a different playstyle (i.e. due to his high points cost, if you were operating a widely dispersed force on the table top, etc.).

Yeah, that seems pretty awesome. I like it!

[Ishagu]

The idea of having all 3 Doctrines active at once is a great one! It doesn't create anything overpowered but it's a good bonus to encourage his use.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

OMG I played IG today the dude couldn’t stop crying all game. All three doctrines at once will never happen and it is not in any way fluffy.

[justicarius6]

Just make him a HQ choice for UM. Maybe a points drop, but that's not what's keeping him off the table right now. He's just too hard to fit into an army as near as dammit you're forced to take a supreme command. Edited November 24, 2019 by justicarius6

[Joukernaut]

I'm not quite sure what you are on about, Guilliman is quite easy to fit into an army at the moment. You just take a superheavy auxiliary detachment. If he was an HQ you could just insert him into a battalion, no need for a supreme command, unless you wanted loads of characters.

 

I too like the idea of Guilliman doing something with doctrines. I think having all three on, would be incredible powerful and doesn't actually seem that fluffy. I think if you could cherrypick a doctrine for every unit each turn, either in an aura or army wide, would represent the tactical properties of Guilliman a lot better. Just having everything doesn't seem that tactical to me.

[emperorpants]

I'm not quite sure what you are on about, Guilliman is quite easy to fit into an army at the moment. You just take a superheavy auxiliary detachment. If he was an HQ you could just insert him into a battalion, no need for a supreme command, unless you wanted loads of characters.

 

I too like the idea of Guilliman doing something with doctrines. I think having all three on, would be incredible powerful and doesn't actually seem that fluffy. I think if you could cherrypick a doctrine for every unit each turn, either in an aura or army wide, would represent the tactical properties of Guilliman a lot better. Just having everything doesn't seem that tactical to me.

I like the idea of picking for each unit at the top of the battleround if Gman is your warlord. That seems to reflect his tactical genius best imo.

[Ishagu]

The problem I have with Guilliman is that an army is better without him (maybe not always but often).

 

You can duplicate his auras (in some ways improve them - for example a 9" re roll all hit rolls aura) and you can duplicate his offensive capabilities on models which are not limited by exclusion from transports, ruins and can fly.

 

We are all in agreement that Astartes are a strong codex, however not all chapters are equal and there are sub optimum units in the army. One such unit is Guilliman.

 

I love running the model, I even made a competitive list that includes him, you can see it in the topic that I made. The fact is that if my interest was strictly efficiency and power I could increase it by swapping out Guilliman for HQs that provide the same auras and having additional points for more units and thus output. The internal balance with this unit is off, and it's particularly noticeable because the character himself is so iconic.

 

The 3 things that hurt him:

 

-Expensive

-Not a HQ - he costs a detachment slot and leads to more points being expended on characters.

-Needs to be a Warlord to unlock the CP bonus, and has a trait that isn't the most desirable.

-Make that 4 negatives, he doesn't even get the Ultramarines chapter tactics unless he's taken in an even more expensive detachment.

 

It hurts the army to spend 500 points on characters just so you have a legal force. It also costs CP to unlock additional Warlord traits so his CP bonus is mitigated in all instances right off the bat. Lastly he's hurt by no longer having a unique rule - like his original aura. I'm not saying that it has to come back, but his Tactical mastery is not made apparent through his rules.

Edited November 25, 2019 by Ishagu

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Everything eventually gets played out. He is still a better choices than either daemon Primarch.

[Frater Cornelius]

Everything eventually gets played out. He is still a better choices than either daemon Primarch.

 

Thought is that because of what he brings for the points or because he is untargetable? I'd like to see how many will play th daemon primarchs if they had character protection, because the biggest criticisms I hear involve them being shot off the board.

 

As for Guilliman, maaan... I think is fine, but uninmaginative. In terms of pure numbers, he is fine. Functional. He gets get job done. But I don't really get a "Primarch" vibe from him, especially since Calgar is right on his case in terms of bonuses. I feel like his power level is absolutely fine, but he ain't inspirational enough. However, making him too flashy may come at the cost of internal balance. Personally, I prefer to keep a healthy internal balance, so I am not sure if major changes are needed.

[Ishagu]

He's underpowered in terms of internal balance, and hey the numbers don't lie.

 

In 20 tournament meetings Ultras only beat Iron Hands twice. 10% win rate against a sub faction in the same codex is not balanced.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Who cares we don’t get all the hate now.

[Ishagu]

lol That is true!

[MegaVolt87]

Eh, just revert the nerfs and bring him back to his OG release state. Or at a minimum, have him as a HQ and LOW at the same time, so you don't need a dedicated LOW detachment for him. 

[NKirkham24]

Eh, just revert the nerfs and bring him back to his OG release state. Or at a minimum, have him as a HQ and LOW at the same time, so you don't need a dedicated LOW detachment for him. 

 

Even if he was classed as a HQ in mono-faction Ultramarine/Successor-only lists, that could work. Maybe something like he has to be your Warlord if taken as a HQ, something like that? 

 

So he could still be included in soup lists but then has to be taken as a LOW.

[Daigo Cannon]

I like the free selection of warlords traits from UM or Core codex, even 1 or 2 at the time or change the trait at the start of the turn or grant/transfer/change the trait for a HQ.

 

Too he could grant something like the grey shield detachment from vigilus, that allow the use of a doctrine from another chapter to a unit/detechment , one use per game. I remember how he was doing drill on 30k with his army disguised as salamanders in case they were traitors in order to be prepared to combat them or another drill when he played as Horus invading macragge.

[Subtleknife]

Having seen all the supplements I honestly think theh should just allow him his re rolls back. If you want to limit it, only allow him to give re rolls all wounds to one unit and the rest get re roll 1 to wound. I think we have got the short end of the stick supplement wise. Dont get me wrong Ultras supplement stacks up really well against other non SM codes. However, with the release of the psychic awakening things that make us unique are getting taken by other chapters. Perhaps gman could give us a shiny.