Faith & Fury Rules and Warp Talons

[Doom Herald]

I've been looking through the upcoming rules (reviews videos are out, etc..) and it's looking like getting warp talons into combat is going to be much easier now at least for Emperor's Children, Night Lord's, and World Eaters (in that order).

 

Emperor's for starters let's you change one of the dice you roll for charging into a 6 using a strat. Paired with the Host Raptorial trait (+2 to charge for Host Raptorials w/in 6") we have a minimum charge roll of 9" (one die is a 6", +2", and the second die will be at least 1" =9"+). This will guarantee a charge in normal circumstances.

 

In Night Lords, we have a strat giving a deepstriking jump pack unit a 3D6 charge roll (average of 10" rounding down) which can also be paired with Host Raptorial rules (changes average to 12"). We also have a strat that lets a NL infantry unit in terrain add 2" to a charge roll this would be an average charge roll of 9" (paired with Host Raptorial rules this is an average of 11"). They also gain +1 to hit with this strat.

 

Last World Eaters have a minor buff in the form of a warlord trait granting +1 to charge rolls. This is obviously worse, but using the strat to give a specialist detachment warlord trait, we can combine the traits to a +3 to charge rolls with an average of a 10" charge. Since they have to be Khorne, we can also use an allied Khorne Daemon character to give the charge re-roll locus (as could NLs). It is worth noting that though WEs have the least advantage to getting into combat, they get +2 attacks per model on the charge, instead of the +1 others get.

 

The biggest thing offered by warp talons is overwatch denial, now that that 9" charge can be easily made, how useful will they probably be? I'm going to definitely try 1 small unit just for overwatch denial, but I am considering larger units if they're EC or Khornate (excess of violence and the fight again strat).

 

This is also not saying much about the other upcoming rules which will generally make things more murdery. I'm curious about any ideas anyone has for using them.

Edited December 10, 2019 by Doom Herald

[DkMiBuch]

I'm planning on trying out a unit of 10 Night Lord Khorne Talons in a Host Raptorial Detachment vs my mate's Cadians pretty soon.

With Raptor Strike, We Have Come For You and Hit and Run, it should theoretically be a real pain for Guard to deal with.

My friend is pretty good at screening out Deep Striking units since you know, guardsmen can move like 14-24 inches per turn with move move move :)

But with We Have Come For You it's pretty much just kill one squad, consolidate into the next and lock them down.

 

 

I'm gonna use a Khorne Herald with the Crimson Crown as well. +1 Strength and extra attacks on wound rolls of 6+ combined with Vets of the Long War is just nasty.

 

Can't wait to try it out! Been painting Talons the last couple of weeks in anticipation of new cool rules, and I was not disappointed!

[jgascoine011]

Pretty sure VoTLW cant be used on a khorne herald as 1) he is not a CSM and 2) he is not part of the original chapters (alpha, world eaters etc)

 

TBH, charging out of deepstrike is a huge gimick.

With space marines "no deepstrike within 12" units, you cant even even declare a charge on that unit, no matter your charge distance.

 

Then there are armies that can shoot units arriving from deepstrike.

 

And then there are amies which can screen for days, although, night lords can counter this to an extent.

[Doom Herald]

The herald would be giving warp talons the benefit of the crown because the crown is an aura that affects Khorne Daemins. You would use VotLW on the warp Talons, not herald.

 

The point of deepstriking warp talons is that they deny overwatch. Changing deepstrike range to 12" is a problem with the way charge rules are currently though.

Edited November 20, 2019 by Doom Herald

[Brom MKIV]

I dusted mine off, definitely be rolling 10 talons either EC or NL. EC is the anti marine meta legion so I'm working with that for now but I'm also brewing with a 3 legion soup for NL since my primary has been alpha legion for 8th edition.

 

NL I'm seriously considering 15 raptors to compliment those talons. The potential to charge and tag any/all units within 23" is just too good. As for deep strike denial that's where the vox comes in. Kill them or just get within 6" and their omni scramblers get scrambled. And if you aren't taking the vox these guys still ain't that easy to shut down. If there's any unit they can charge it's enough to trigger their massive assault range allowing them to daisy chain into multiple other targets and pin them. I don't see these guys getting screened out very easy by most armies.

[DkMiBuch]

Pretty sure VoTLW cant be used on a khorne herald as 1) he is not a CSM and 2) he is not part of the original chapters (alpha, world eaters etc)

 

TBH, charging out of deepstrike is a huge gimick.

With space marines "no deepstrike within 12" units, you cant even even declare a charge on that unit, no matter your charge distance.

 

Then there are armies that can shoot units arriving from deepstrike.

 

And then there are amies which can screen for days, although, night lords can counter this to an extent.

 

Lol, of course I was referring to the Warp Talons.

 

The Herald is only there for buffing them with +1 strength, Crimson Crown and possibly re-roll charge if I put him in a pure Khorne detachment. 

[Doom Herald]

What are the more common ways that armies push deepstrike to 12"? Is the SM one a strat? I've yet to have anyone screw with my deepstrike, of course I've only been deepstriking shooters thus far.

[Slave to Darkness]

Hmmm if Raptors and Talons are getting a little bit cheeky I think I need a Slaaneshii Lord with jump pack and those named Lightning Claws to lead them. 

[Galron]

Thankfully my meta hasn't really embraced infiltrators and I have yet to see them on the board. I have a NL Host Raptoral detachment in my AL force, which I plan on expanding to a full army in the future, which has 17 Warp talons(I have the models) and a black claw warlord. Its actually really hard to pick relics and warlord traits now that there are such good options available. I had to reduce the numbers of marines in my army just to add in a cultist batt for CP for all the new strats.

 

The only problem with deep striking the stuff in is it doesn't come in until T2 which means your opponent has time to plan around it. The other major issue is at least in my area, marines are the meta and they have that annoying Auspex Scan ability which means they get to shoot anything in 12" that deep strikes in. Are there any real ways to mitigate this outside of the -1 to hit Night Lord strat?

[Brom MKIV]

At that point its basically iron hands overwatch on 5s. Terrain is the main tool to avoid that.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

At that point its basically iron hands overwatch on 5s. Terrain is the main tool to avoid that.

And Vox Scream on a Heldrake or similar quick unit will shut down their rerolls, so it's just "natural" 5's for them.

 

I could also see a REALLY nasty mixed army with an NL Host Raptorial and a Word Bearers Supreme Command with Jump Packs/Wings, Ashen Axe, etc. to get guaranteed Warp Time or Death Hex onto key units and deny fallback yet further with less CP expenditure.

 

Another alternative could be NL/Alpha Legion to just absolutely make your opponent hate life every time they try to count on any of their special rules or stratagems.

[Doom Herald]

You won't need to charge around terrain if you send in warp talons first, since overwatch can't be fired on them on the deepstrike turn. Auspex scan is 2CP and can only be used by infantry. While not ideal, they will be shooting with effective BS:4+ in most cases, 5+ if you use In Midnight Clad. It basicly defeats the purpose of ducking overwatch (unless your charging a different unit than is shooting), but your oponent is then forced to spend 2CP or endure greater damage. Also, the same strats can only be used 1/phase. After the first unit is hit, the others can drop freely.

 

How many things actually force you to deepstrike to 12" from enemy models?

Edited November 21, 2019 by Doom Herald

[Brom MKIV]

 

At that point its basically iron hands overwatch on 5s. Terrain is the main tool to avoid that.

 

 

Another alternative could be NL/Alpha Legion to just absolutely make your opponent hate life every time they try to count on any of their special rules or stratagems.

 

Thats exactly what I'm messing with now brother! This update was enough to finally make me build my kakophoni models I've had laying around for a couple years. I'll be rolling AL as usual and now adding EC and considering NL for a 3rd detachment. The combo of redeployment, disruption and anti meq looks amazing. 

[crazy_tuco]

 EC is the anti marine meta legion 

 

What is it exactly about Emperor's Children that makes them the anti-marine legion?  

[Brom MKIV]

Well thats open to debate obviously but at this point they're looking very strong to me. Excruciating frequencies is what I was talking about specifically. Troops choices with assault 3 cover ignoring S5 d2 weapons. I've been using NM in 8th just for the ablatives on the blastmasters and found them to be surprisingly effective as a stand in for the former havocs since they lost ablatives. 

 

Anyway if we look at a max squad just for academics we get this:

 

Troops- 190 pts

30 shots *4*4*2/216 = 4.44 dead primaris in ruins. This jumps to 5 ish if we add 2 BMs. probably not worth it for this purpose.

 

With prescience and votlw = 6.94 dead. 

 

Add EC and thats 2 full squads almost dead a turn.. although at times there will be better target for those strats. then consider what these guys can do to even larger targets including knights. I'm looking at it as adding another votlw strat into our tools.     

 

That said honestly I think most legions have a unit that looks tailor made to kill marines. Just so happens these fill troops. 

Edited November 22, 2019 by Brom MKIV

[crazy_tuco]

Wouldn't a max squad with sonic blasters be 60 shots?  Max is 20 I thought (sorry, don't have my codex in front of me), and Sonic Blasters are Assault 3 I think?

[Brom MKIV]

Yes! If your inclined to deathstar them but then delivery becomes an issue. Could be pretty effective in the right build though with lots of support stacking buffs and warp timing them. Hmm interesting.. 

[crazy_tuco]

I'm certainly not saying that getting 20 noise marines where you want them would be a breeze.  I was just confused on what a max unit was.

Edited November 23, 2019 by crazy_tuco

[DkMiBuch]

I'm certainly not saying that getting 20 noise marines where you want them would be a breeze.  I was just confused on what a max unit was.

 I tried out a blob of 20 last night, and I actually was kind of a breeze to get them were I needed them to be.

 

Used elixirs for +2 movement, and a Dark Apostle with the +1 to hit prayer.

 

Now you move 8 and advance 3.5. Warptime those suckers, and you've moved 23". That's a 47" threat range with Sonic Blasters, and you don't care about the -1 to hit from advancing.

You can even make them hit on 2+ with Prescience, which I did.

Even on a hammer and anvil map, I was able to reach his Leman Russes deployed on the very table edge. Killed three.

 

But back to Warp Talons.

I brought ten NL Talons in a Host Raptorial. They failed their 9" charge even with Raptor Strike for the 3D6, +2" charge from Tip of the Claw and a command point reroll and the game was over...

 

By my calculations, they should make it 97.2% of the time so go figure.

Edited December 1, 2019 by DkMiBuch

[Brom MKIV]

Jeez thats just horrible luck. Switch to EC brother that will never happen again.

[Panzer]

 

But back to Warp Talons.

I brought ten NL Talons in a Host Raptorial. They failed their 9" charge even with Raptor Strike for the 3D6, +2" charge from Tip of the Claw and a command point reroll and the game was over...

 

By my calculations, they should make it 97.2% of the time so go figure.

 

 

Just ouch. Blame Tzeentch.

[Are Verlo]

I´ll be attending a small RT/ITC tournament the 18th of January this year and it will be the first tournament for my EC + Slaanesh daemons.

The list I am considering will include both an EC-detatchment and Daemons of chaos (slaanesh) detatchments. The warlord will be a lord with JP and I´m kit-bashing a sorcerer with JP. Those two guys and 2 units of warptalons will form the host raptorial. I am hoping to combine the "EC autocharge" (honour the prince) with no overwatch from warp talons and one EC character, with the "no fall back from fiends and Contorted epitome".

 

The list probably won´t win the tournament, but it will be a refreshing change from other lists (both for me and my oppontents).

[ChazSexington]

I´ll be attending a small RT/ITC tournament the 18th of January this year and it will be the first tournament for my EC + Slaanesh daemons.

The list I am considering will include both an EC-detatchment and Daemons of chaos (slaanesh) detatchments. The warlord will be a lord with JP and I´m kit-bashing a sorcerer with JP. Those two guys and 2 units of warptalons will form the host raptorial. I am hoping to combine the "EC autocharge" (honour the prince) with no overwatch from warp talons and one EC character, with the "no fall back from fiends and Contorted epitome".

 

The list probably won´t win the tournament, but it will be a refreshing change from other lists (both for me and my oppontents).

 

Good luck - I'm guessing it's Eastfold you're going to?

 

I've used them at 24pt with a Sorcerer with JP (Prescience), but as mine are RCs, I can't use VotLW, so they can only really take out infantry. 

 

[techsoldaten]

Can anyone speak about how to get the most out of a Host Raptorial now with PA2?

 

Like, what would actually be the optimal HQ / units to take, what legions should they represent, and what can you reasonably expect them to do in a fight?

 

It seems like a couple 10-man Warp Talon squads with Haarken and a NL JP CL would be ideal for fighting MEQ but overkill against GEQ and overpowered by Dreads and other armored units. Makes me think they are too specialized for most games.

[Brom MKIV]

For my experience I've used EC and NL and its arguable which is better. I'd lean towards NL simply because 'we've come for you' which has been fantastic for me. But also for their other disruptive abilities and potentially insane charge range. 

EC has the more reliable charge modifier and can be made much more potent with excess of violence + elixir if needed allowing them to destroy most non vehicle units. EC also have slightly more potent melee characters. That said NL are better against imperium and at preventing overheat.

 

IMO host raptorial is not as appealing now with PA.. compared to taking 1 unit in NL and 1 in EC for example. Its main attraction would be to allow a legion without charge modifiers to run multiple jump units. Or for any legion wanting to impact multiple units from the same legion at the same time.

In that case I'd take night lords outriders with 10 talons for OW denial of the most shooty units followed up by 15 raptors mok- icon to tag everything. The talons can then pile in towards the main unit they want to fight. Round it out with 5 spawn.    

 

I did try WE several times prior to PA and even arkos from the faithless for an enabler both of which didn't work out that well at the time. 

Edited December 3, 2019 by Brom MKIV