Faith & Fury Rules and Warp Talons

[crazy_tuco]

Can anyone speak about how to get the most out of a Host Raptorial now with PA2?

 

Like, what would actually be the optimal HQ / units to take, what legions should they represent, and what can you reasonably expect them to do in a fight?

 

It seems like a couple 10-man Warp Talon squads with Haarken and a NL JP CL would be ideal for fighting MEQ but overkill against GEQ and overpowered by Dreads and other armored units. Makes me think they are too specialized for most games.

 

I've got no experience with them since the release of PA2.  That being said, I'm looking at an Outrider Detachment Raptorial Host for my World Eaters.  My intention with them is to drop in and charge a couple of units that I'd rather not suffer overwatch fire from before sending in my Berzerkers.  My meta is a pretty small sample of the hobby, though.  We don't play in stores or at tournaments, so I always know which armies I'll be facing.  The big pains are for me Tau and Iron Warriors.   Their overwatch is pretty harsh and they're capable of poking holes in my Rhinos.  

[Doom Herald]

I think Emperor's Children has the better damage potential with one unit, while Night Lords has the better potential to get multiple units in in one turn. NL has 2 strats that help on the charge. One does +2" to charge and +1 to hit. The other has 3D6 charge roll. These have an average charge roll of 9" and 10.5" respectively and 11" and 12.5" with Tip of the Claw. EC has the strat that let's you change one die from your charge roll to a 6, which means as long as 1 die from the charge roll is 3+ you will make the 9" charge and with Tip of the Claw giving +2 you will always get 9"+. So, with NL, you can easily get 2 units in, but you have to choose to spend the CP before rolling your charge. With EC, you can roll charge first, then if you fail the charge spend 1CP to ensure the charge. Note that you will probably make your charge with Tip of the Claw anyway, these strats just improve your odds greatly.

 

When it comes to damage output, we need to consider some more variables. EC is probably the better choice in this regard, in most situations. They have a strategem that allows them to gain a bonus attack whenever they kill a model; this is especially devastating against one-wound infantry. Between the Host Raptorial strat or the Chaos Lord re-roll, most attacks will hit and with lightning claws, most will wound. This should almost double their damage output. Further, they have the combat elixirs strat which can give the unit +1 attack. This means 4 attacks per model on the charge before the extra attacks. Excess of Violence and Combat Elixirs will not you a loss of 3CP, but that's 21 lightning claw attacks on a 5 man unit before extra attacks hit, which can potentially double it. Finally, if your opponent does not fall back, you attack first because of legion trait.

 

Night Lords simply lack much to increase their damage output. They do, however, have 2 strats that give +1 to hit and one of those is the same strat that gives +2 to the charge. Their real potential for damage output comes into play if they fight IMPERIUM though. Given that they have 2 strats for +1 to hit, they trigger Death to the False Emperor on a natural 4+ (3+ with prescience) and can re-roll with either a Lord aura or the Host Raptorial strat. This is not as powerful as the advantage offered by the extra attacks EC can generate though. It also should be noted that EC Warp Talons can use DttFE, but won't have as many bonuses. Night Lords can make their Warp Talons Khorne which would give them access to the attack twice strat if absolutely necessary, this is a big CP burn though. Before extra attacks, they have 16 attacks on a 5-man unit.

 

Khorne NL Talons have 32 attacks if you use the attack twice strat, potential 64 against IMPERIUM. 3 CP to attack twice and possibly another 2 CP (though one might have already been played for when you charged) if you want to maximize damage to Imperium. So, let's say you spend 5 CP. EC talons start with 21 (with elixirs), potential 21 more from Excess of Violence, potential 21 more from DttFE. So, for 3 CP (4 if you used the charge strat) we are looking at a potential 42 against everyone and a potential 63 against IMPERIUM. Overall, EC seems like the better choice for damage output since it outperforms the NL Khorne Talons with 3CP/4CP used by both against non-IMPERIUM units. It also does only slightly worse at the same CP cost than the NL Talons spending 1 or 2 more CP when attacking IMPERIUM units. That said, against 2 wound models, the NL unit will probably perform better since none of their extra attacks are based off of models having to die. This is of course, still at a higher CP cost. Additionally, the NL Khorne system stays CP expensive every turn, while the EC one would require 2 CP at startup and 1 on turns they fight, maybe 2 on a charge.

 

For the purpose of Warp Talons, I think EC is the best way to go. I'm not really sure either NL or EC need the Host Raptorial to work, but the Tip of the Claw and maybe even the re-roll hits strat will help. You do have to spend 1CP and use up your warlord trait or else spend 2CP (extra warlord trait for specialist dettachment) to set it up.

 

What I'd like to try is a EC Host Raptorial with a Lord with Tip of the Claw (and maybe the re-roll everything or no overwatch relic) and Warp Talons paired with a NL dettachment with bikes or raptors and a Jump Lord with the Vox Daemonicus. Warp Talons can deepstrik and charge. Raptors can charge after and pin units with the We Have Come For You strat so they can't fall back. Both units beat the target bloody, if it does, hopefully consolidate to a new enemy, which can be targeted be WHCFY strat and be kept from falling back. Then on the opponents fight phase, Warp Talons attack first because they are EC. If the Raptors are Slaaneshi, they can take the icon and have good DttFE odds, potentially doing so on a 2+ (2 NL strats, prescience, icon) and giving -2 Ld to enemies, or Nurgle for -3 Ld to enemies and slightly less DttFE odds.

Edited December 11, 2019 by Doom Herald

[Doom Herald]

 

+WORLD EATERS+

Base Attacks on Charge (5 models): 21

 

To Charge>

 

2CP: startup cost for Host Raptorial & bonus Warlord Trait. [Allows for a total of +3 to charge rolls with warlord auras]

 

Damage>

 

1CP: Stoke the Nails [DttFE on everything; DttFE on 5+ vs IMPERIUM]

Average Attacks: +3, 24 total (+7, 28 total vs IMPERIUM)

 

3CP: Fury of Khorne [Attack again; does not benefit from Legion Trait]

Average Attacks: +16, 37 total (+22, 43 total vs IMPERIUM)

 

4CP: Stoke the Nails & Fury of Khorne

Average attacks: +22, 43 total (+28, 49 total vs IMPERIUM)

 

 

+Emperor's Children+

Base Attacks on Charge (5 models): 16

 

To Charge>

 

1CP: startup cost for Host Raptorial for Warlord Trait [Allows for +2 to charge rolls with warlord aura]

 

1CP: Honour the Prince [Change 1D6 on the charge roll to a 6, guaranteed charge with Host Raptorial Warlord Trait]

 

Damage>

 

2CP: Start up cost for Combat Elixirs [+1A per model, lasts for the battle]

Average Attacks: +5, 21 total (+8, 24 total vs IMPERIUM)

 

1CP: Excess of Violence [additional attack when slaying an enemy model]

Average Attacks: widely variable, high potential versus 1 wound infantry. Potentially double.

Assuming 1 kill per 2 attacks: +8, 24 total (+10, 26 total vs IMPERIUM)

 

3CP: Combat Elixirs & Excess of Violence together.

Average attacks @ 1/2 success of EoV: +15, 31 total (+18, 34 total vs IMPERIUM)

 

 

Well, it looks like World Eaters will probably perform the best in damage output, but it does require a little more CP both for startup costs to take 2 warlord traits and to use Fury of Khorne, which has to be payed each turn you want to use it. This also calls for points spent on a second character in order to provide both charge bonuses.

 

So, all in all, I think Emperor's children is still better because you can guarantee the charge and use less CP for a somewhat lesser, but more sustainable damage output. Plus, they will get to attack first in the next fight phase. I could definitely see World Eaters Talons as a BIG threat if you have the CP to burn though. Both seem better than Night Lords Talons to me.