Mephiston New Rule Thoughts?

[Panzer]

 

 

 

Addendum:

Those pics look more like cards than pages in a book like a codex or supplement.

 

Because that's what they are.

 

 

.....right.....but why?

 

Mephiston I can see having a datacard in his new model's box, but does that mean there's re-packs of Lemartes and Astorath?

 

That's my confusion.

 

 

Just a neat little something for people buying PA3 since they are the two named Chaplains we have and apparently our Chaplains gained access to Litanies as well now.

[Blindhamster]

Yeah with faith and fury they included cards with orders of it whilst stock lasts. I guess this will be the same

[Pathstrider]

 

 

The thing is, Mephiston is a special character in the fluff. Not like special snowflake he's "our" guy so he should be special kind of special, but rather a true one-off-will-never-see-his-like-again kind of special. Truly a creature apart from the rest of the entire species. For that reason, his rules seems underwhelming. Just like Dante's rules are underwhelming because of his backstory (of ...ya know....being a "cuss -ing chapter master for over 1000 years), whereas the unenlightened would be like "yea but he has +1A!".

On a more personal note, I prefer the design philosophy of making unique characters more powerful/interesting jacking their points up rather than what seems to be the trend of lowering their abilities and points cost, but that's just me.

 

 

 

I think there is a case that we take his current rules for granted. 

 

To take an example - he's T5. It doesn't seem much on paper in the game, but step back and consider what that means in setting. This makes his as removed from a normal marine as a marine is from an ordinary human, and only just puts him behind a Primarch. The only way a normal marine can be that tough is by wearing the heaviest armour available (Gravis) or be bloated by the power of chaos (Nurgle Marines, Abbadon).

 

He's as tough as Gravis armour from his own skin. Sounds like a creature removed to me. 

[Indefragable]

<removed, see below>

Edited November 21, 2019 by Indefragable

[Indefragable]

Yeah with faith and fury they included cards with orders of it whilst stock lasts. I guess this will be the same

 

Well there you go then...was not aware of that fact. Apologies @Sfpanzer.

 

 

 

 

The thing is, Mephiston is a special character in the fluff. Not like special snowflake he's "our" guy so he should be special kind of special, but rather a true one-off-will-never-see-his-like-again kind of special. Truly a creature apart from the rest of the entire species. For that reason, his rules seems underwhelming. Just like Dante's rules are underwhelming because of his backstory (of ...ya know....being a "cuss -ing chapter master for over 1000 years), whereas the unenlightened would be like "yea but he has +1A!".

On a more personal note, I prefer the design philosophy of making unique characters more powerful/interesting jacking their points up rather than what seems to be the trend of lowering their abilities and points cost, but that's just me.

 

 

 

I think there is a case that we take his current rules for granted. 

 

To take an example - he's T5. It doesn't seem much on paper in the game, but step back and consider what that means in setting. This makes his as removed from a normal marine as a marine is from an ordinary human, and only just puts him behind a Primarch. The only way a normal marine can be that tough is by wearing the heaviest armour available (Gravis) or be bloated by the power of chaos (Nurgle Marines, Abbadon).

 

He's as tough as Gravis armour from his own skin. Sounds like a creature removed to me. 

 

 

...or a brand new Scout with tags still on his armor can just hop on a bike to become T5....

 

...I get where you are coming from, but I think it's being a bit too generous. Hence why a -1 To Wound for "Lord of Death" or such would, from a game mechanics perspective, get the point across more.

[Dumah]

And let's not forget the strength 5... He's wounding everything on 2s with Red Thirst.

Edited November 21, 2019 by Dumah

[redshadow]

Technically he has 5 powers with sanguine sword and smite, if he’s priced at the same points he’s got to be an auto include in a pure blood angels list imho Edited November 21, 2019 by redshadow

[Karhedron]

At 160-ish points, he fell out of favour in BA lists to be replaced by the cheaper and tougher Libby Dread. With +1A and +1W, Mephy is back in contention but probably not auto-include.

[Klod]

Didn't expect more than we got, therefore didn't get dissapointed. Kinda difficult to be upset after seeing the new model.

Someone said his rules poorly represent how much of a badass he is, that's true, but same goes for dozen other units across all of the Factions. Starting with a Tactical Marine.

 

Since I stopped caring how strong something is a while ago now, the only thing that bothers me is that they didn't change the rules for overcharging his pistol.

[Chronos1985]

At 160-ish points, he fell out of favour in BA lists to be replaced by the cheaper and tougher Libby Dread. With +1A and +1W, Mephy is back in contention but probably not auto-include.

 

I think the knowing an extra spell would put him just over the Librarian Dreadnought for me. But, I suppose it depends on if the spells changed, and what he gets access too. I wouldn't be surprised if they re-worked the Sanguinary Discipline given we have three spells that are UNQUESTIONABLY better than the other three.

 

Remind me, do Librarian Dreadnoughts benefit from the Shock Assault Rule?

 

Edit: I forgot to mention he will get Chief librarian benefits too.

Edited November 21, 2019 by Chronos1985

[Indefragable]

Didn't expect more than we got, therefore didn't get dissapointed. Kinda difficult to be upset after seeing the new model.

Someone said his rules poorly represent how much of a badass he is, that's true, but same goes for dozen other units across all of the Factions. Starting with a Tactical Marine.

 

Since I stopped caring how strong something is a while ago now, the only thing that bothers me is that they didn't change the rules for overcharging his pistol.

 

Yea that's the crux of my gripes: that all characters of legend are well....not of legend on the tabletop. I think Abaddon and Guilliman should be more powerful on the tabletop than they are, I just rage far more vocally about My Dudes for obvious reasons.

 

Part of why I like 30k: you have to make a strategic choice to bring a dude like a Primarch who takes up 1/3-1/5 of the points of your entire army since they are so powerful: it's sometimes smarter not to include them since you could bring so many more boyz over your Primarch/snowflake character, but if you can get the most of out them then it just may be worth it.

 

Remind me, do Librarian Dreadnoughts benefit from the Shock Assault Rule?

 

Yes, since Infantry, Bikers, and Dreadnoughts all explicitly benefit from Chapter Tactic/equivalents. Codex Space Marines 2.0 updated that to say all models with <Chapter> tags etc...

[Aothaine]

This dude is the Lord of Death. He needs a chance to come back up like Guilliman imho.

[SnorriSnorrison]

I’d love to see his psychic power increased, with the event being about the blood psychic awakening. Like what tiggy has without an entire event for his backstory. Supposed to be the most powerful Psyker in the Imperium, is he not? Meph currently is “only” the most physical powerful. That’s very, very good already, but he’s “just” another chief librarian really. Even got rid of his transfixing gaze. Meh.

[Karhedron]

I think the knowing an extra spell would put him just over the Librarian Dreadnought for me. But, I suppose it depends on if the spells changed, and what he gets access too. I wouldn't be surprised if they re-worked the Sanguinary Discipline given we have three spells that are UNQUESTIONABLY better than the other three.

Mephy's card references the Sanguinary Discipline in the BA Codex, not a page in PA3. This strongly suggests that the Discipline is not being reworked and we will not be getting access to any other Disciplines either.

[Aothaine]

So...

 

For those that have not seen it yet...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjYchyLB3Kw

 

He is Str 10 with 5 attacks base. +1 to wound with the Blood Angels chapter tactic and a 2+ to Hit. But his melee weapon is D3 dmg. So he can get through and wound most of the time against anything but he will big a little hit or miss with the dmg. T5 with the 5+ FNP and 6 wounds should keep him up against most fire-power. Though I imagine against specific armies you will want to keep him in the box, (Raven Guard and Iron Hands most likely).

 

Still his rules are very solid. Dude is an absolute beast with flappy arms for some reason. I really think his sword should have been flat 2-3 dmg. But the most important reason to take him is his model imho. 

 

Edit: Quickening, Red Rampage, Wings of Sanguinius on Mephiston is crazy strong. 5+2d3(+1 more if he charged or was charged) S5 -3 D3 attacks hitting on 2+, wounding everything T9 and lower on 2+, 12"  free move, Gains Fly for assault over terrain and other units. Like... I mean... I'm not really upset at this at all. Imagine this beast coming out of an Impulsor T2. This is pretty damn well bossing it. You can also really beefcake him by tossing in a sang priest for +1S and a Captain Smash for good measure. 

 

It really isn't as bad as people might start saying it is. Got to remember the auras and how powerful he is already.

 

Edit 2: The sang priest adding +1 S doesn't add much unless he is targeting T10 models. If he is then he will be S11 and will wound T10 and lower on a 2+.

 

Edit 3: But holy god! Having him and a Smash Captain show up on T2 with pretty much guaranteed charges. They are going to absolutely destroy what ever they target and they both have protection from T1 sniping. I'm not even sure what to do with the rest of the army at this point. Those two characters alone are going to cause so much threat saturation that you might actually be able to walk a full unit of aggressors up the board. Definitely give the Impulsor that Mephiston is in the invlun save. 

 

If Blood Angels had access to those Ultramarine super guards I would pop them in with Meph. Not sure off the top of my head if Blood Angels have guards like that. Do SG work like that? 

Edited November 22, 2019 by Aothaine

[Panzer]

So...

 

For those that have not seen it yet...

 

 

He is Str 10 with 5 attacks base. +1 to wound with the Blood Angels chapter tactic and a 2+ to Hit. But his melee weapon is D3 dmg. So he can get through and wound most of the time against anything but he will big a little hit or miss with the dmg. T5 with the 5+ FNP and 6 wounds should keep him up against most fire-power. Though I imagine against specific armies you will want to keep him in the box, (Raven Guard and Iron Hands most likely).

 

Still his rules are very solid. Dude is an absolute beast with flappy arms for some reason. I really think his sword should have been flat 2-3 dmg. But the most important reason to take him is his model imho. 

 

Edit: Quickening, Red Rampage, Wings of Sanguinius on Mephiston is crazy strong. 5+2d3(+1 more if he charged or was charged) S5 -3 D3 attacks hitting on 2+, wounding everything T9 and lower on 2+, 12"  free move, Gains Fly for assault over terrain and other units. Like... I mean... I'm not really upset at this at all. Imagine this beast coming out of an Impulsor T2. This is pretty damn well bossing it. You can also really beefcake him by tossing in a sang priest for +1S and a Captain Smash for good measure. 

 

It really isn't as bad as people might start saying it is. Got to remember the auras and how powerful he is already. :D

 

Edit 2: The sang priest adding +1 S doesn't add much unless he is targeting T10 models. If he is then he will be S11 and will wound T10 and lower on a 2+.

 

Edit 3: But holy god! Having him and a Smash Captain show up on T2 with pretty much guaranteed charges. They are going to absolutely destroy what ever they target and they both have protection from T1 sniping. I'm not even sure what to do with the rest of the army at this point. Those two characters alone are going to cause so much threat saturation that you might actually be able to walk a full unit of aggressors up the board. Definitely give the Impulsor that Mephiston is in the invlun save. 

 

If Blood Angels had access to those Ultramarine super guards I would pop them in with Meph. Not sure off the top of my head if Blood Angels have guards like that. Do SG work like that?

 

Nothing about that is new. He literally only got +1A and +1W. ;)

[Riot Earp]

That he fits in primaris rides is new tho.

XD

[The Unseen]

That he fits in primaris rides is new tho.

XD

 

Which are worse for him than the things he used to be able to ride in. (Rhinos, Stormravens, and Drop Pods are all better for melee characters than impulsors or repulsors)

 

But its pretty disappointing that they went with the absolute bare minimum for his update. Like, mephiston wasn't bad before, but he was usually edged out by the cheaper librarian dread, and I don't see that changing much unless they drop his points down a little.

 

Lemartes getting litanies, his charge reroll got buffed (now you can reroll your multicharges if you roll high enough to make it to some of your targets but not all of them if you want) while also keeping letting DC reroll hits makes him an absolute freaking monster though. And since he was auto-include in my lists before, well, that's pretty sweet.

[Panzer]

Most people didn't put him into transports anyway and instead just cast Wings on him, so I REALLY don't care about which transports he could theoretically use or not lol

[Indefragable]

"Most people" put him in drop pods and/or SR's to protect him before casting WoS, so it does make a difference.

[Panzer]

Really? I've never seen people do that a lot. Just some rare cases. And those people they could just put him into an Impulsor or Repulsor now too.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

And let's not forget the strength 5... He's wounding everything on 2s with Red Thirst.

Until you're up against marines and they pop transhuman phisiology and a 3++ and then eat him with return attacks since he has no invulnerable save.

 

Or they sacrifice unit A to then swoop in and eat him with plasma/dev doctrine weapons, or snipe him off the board before he can get into the lines. Again, because he doesn't have an invulnerable save.

 

Like seriously don't charge him into a unit of IF centurions.

Edited November 22, 2019 by Dont-Be-Haten

[Dont-Be-Haten]

"Most people" put him in drop pods and/or SR's to protect him before casting WoS, so it does make a difference.

people did that before they FAQ'd you cant move after deepstrike except for charging. So he was nerfed with losing the ability to cast wings from a drop pod. Gaining an impulsor at the loss of a rhino is functionally better. With an ability to have a 4++ with protection & FLY is > rhino/razorback for essentially the same cost as both.

 

After the FAQ I don't know anyone that still set Mephy up in a drop pod.

 

So I feel like gaining the primaris key word isn't a nerf. We just have to change how he is delivered if we want that extra protection. I for one have no problem spending less than 100 points for a T7 flying box backed by a 4++.

[Pathstrider]

Until you're up against marines and they pop transhuman phisiology and a 3++ and then eat him with return attacks since he has no invulnerable save.

Isn't Lord of Death strictly better than an Invulnerable save? I don't get why loads of people complain about the lack of invulnerable save.

[Chaplain Elijah]

 

Didn't expect more than we got, therefore didn't get dissapointed. Kinda difficult to be upset after seeing the new model.

Someone said his rules poorly represent how much of a badass he is, that's true, but same goes for dozen other units across all of the Factions. Starting with a Tactical Marine.

 

Since I stopped caring how strong something is a while ago now, the only thing that bothers me is that they didn't change the rules for overcharging his pistol.

 

Yea that's the crux of my gripes: that all characters of legend are well....not of legend on the tabletop. I think Abaddon and Guilliman should be more powerful on the tabletop than they are, I just rage far more vocally about My Dudes for obvious reasons.

 

 

 

Erh i don't want the game to turn into herohammer like some old editions. It's just lame to play.