Mephiston New Rule Thoughts?

[Marshal Reinhard]

Maybe my opinion can be discounted since I haven't had a BA army for more than 2 decades now, but I really didn't think Mephiston needed more of a boost than the customary Primaris +1W +A. 

[Panzer]

 

Until you're up against marines and they pop transhuman phisiology and a 3++ and then eat him with return attacks since he has no invulnerable save.

Isn't Lord of Death strictly better than an Invulnerable save? I don't get why loads of people complain about the lack of invulnerable save.

 

 

Yes and no. It's the same as a 5++ against single damage wounds and it is more reliable to mitigate multi-damage wounds but on the other hand it's worse than a 4++ or 3++ against single damage wounds and is very unlikely to ever stop a multi-damage wound completely.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

 

Until you're up against marines and they pop transhuman phisiology and a 3++ and then eat him with return attacks since he has no invulnerable save.

Isn't Lord of Death strictly better than an Invulnerable save? I don't get why loads of people complain about the lack of invulnerable save.

Would you rather block 1 attack that does three damage twice or have a 33% to block 6 damage from two attacks? Mortal wounds aside.

[Panzer]

Maybe my opinion can be discounted since I haven't had a BA army for more than 2 decades now, but I really didn't think Mephiston needed more of a boost than the customary Primaris +1W +A. 

 

He didn't need it from a pure crunch-perspective, however considering what he is capable of doing in all the new novels the rules really don't fit him anymore.

[BluejayJunior]

 

 

Until you're up against marines and they pop transhuman phisiology and a 3++ and then eat him with return attacks since he has no invulnerable save.

Isn't Lord of Death strictly better than an Invulnerable save? I don't get why loads of people complain about the lack of invulnerable save.

Would you rather block 1 attack that does three damage twice or have a 33% to block 6 damage from two attacks? Mortal wounds aside.

 

Also, it would stack with an invulnerable save. So he would save against more wounds and then take less damage from the ones he failed. 

[Xenith]

If only there was some way for him to give him an invulnerable save.

 

It's all if's and but's anyway. There's always an unfavourable match up for a model. The only unit I'd charge into IF aggressors/centurions is one with Angels Wing.

Edited November 22, 2019 by Xenith

[Dont-Be-Haten]

If only there was some way for him to give him an invulnerable save.

Without casting shield; however I think shield is a must now. Like try to roll it every turn you aren't assaulting; and maybe even then. I'd rather have an extra 5++ than an additional 3" and d3 attacks with all the extra attacks gained now.

 

It still runs the risk of failing, perils, or being denied, but I guess that's better than nothing.

[Guest Triszin]

If only there was some way for him to give him an invulnerable save.

 

It's all if's and but's anyway. There's always an unfavourable match up for a model. The only unit I'd charge into IF aggressors/centurions is one with Angels Wing.

o.0 he still doesnt have a invuln?

[Pathstrider]

Would you rather block 1 attack that does three damage twice or have a 33% to block 6 damage from two attacks? Mortal wounds aside.

I'm not sure I'm following, so bear with me. I was comparing Lord of Death to a 5++ in my head. In this case they're on average the same - which one is better will depend on how many wounds Mephiston has left. I can see the benefits of the ++ in you're more likely to lose no wounds at all - but you're also more likely to take 6, with Lord of Death on a specturm between. Lord of Death applying to mortal wounds tips it IMO - Not to mention that there are still a lot of weapons where Mephiston will get an armour save anyway due to his 2+ normal save.

 

If you're comparing to a 4++ or 3++ than sure the invincible save is better.

[Panzer]

 

Would you rather block 1 attack that does three damage twice or have a 33% to block 6 damage from two attacks? Mortal wounds aside.

I'm not sure I'm following, so bear with me. I was comparing Lord of Death to a 5++ in my head. In this case they're on average the same - which one is better will depend on how many wounds Mephiston has left. I can see the benefits of the ++ in you're more likely to lose no wounds at all - but you're also more likely to take 6, with Lord of Death on a specturm between. Lord of Death applying to mortal wounds tips it IMO - Not to mention that there are still a lot of weapons where Mephiston will get an armour save anyway due to his 2+ normal save.

 

If you're comparing to a 4++ or 3++ than sure the invincible save is better.

 

 

The average might be the same but it really isn't the same when it comes to multi-damage wounds. One rather reliably reduces the damage taken by 1/3rd. The other gives a 1/3rd chance to reduce the damage completely but a 2/3rd chance that it does nothing.

Say Mephiston has 2 wounds left and gets hit by a bunch of attacks with 3 damage (Thunderhammers, good fist rolls, or similar). A 5+++ won't help you much there as you'd need to succeed a LOT of 5+ rolls to survive. With a 5++ you need a lot less 5+ rolls to survive since it would prevent 2-3 damage every time. 

FnP like saves are great if you have a lot of wounds to spare left or if it's just D1 wounds you need to protect against, but the fewer your remaining wounds are the more important is it to prevent all the damage instead of just reducing the damage you take.

And this talks only about a 5++ which he would have against AP-3 anyway thanks to his Sv2+. It's more likely that he'd have at least a 4++ like every other Captain and Chaplain.

[Xenith]

 

If only there was some way for him to give him an invulnerable save.

 

It's all if's and but's anyway. There's always an unfavourable match up for a model. The only unit I'd charge into IF aggressors/centurions is one with Angels Wing.

o.0 he still doesnt have a invuln?

 

 

Yea, it's a bit odd, GW might be afraid of making him too powerful, but other harder to kill characters exist. GW even found a McGuffin way to give Ezekiel a 4++ when he used to have none, through a magic key fob, so Meph should get one easily. 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

 

 

 

 

If only there was some way for him to give him an invulnerable save.

 

It's all if's and but's anyway. There's always an unfavourable match up for a model. The only unit I'd charge into IF aggressors/centurions is one with Angels Wing.

o.0 he still doesnt have a invuln?

Yea, it's a bit odd, GW might be afraid of making him too powerful, but other harder to kill characters exist. GW even found a McGuffin way to give Ezekiel a 4++ when he used to have none, through a magic key fob, so Meph should get one easily.

IF slash/smash captain can't be wounded on less than a 4+ and halves all damage while sporting a 3++. Mephiston gaining a 4++ is nothing by comparison.

[Xenith]

 

IF slash/smash captain can't be wounded on less than a 4+ and halves all damage while sporting a 3++. Mephiston gaining a 4++ is nothing by comparison.

 

Indeedy. Is that half damage thing an IH ability?

Edited November 22, 2019 by Xenith

[Karhedron]

Without casting shield; however I think shield is a must now. Like try to roll it every turn you aren't assaulting; and maybe even then. I'd rather have an extra 5++ than an additional 3" and d3 attacks with all the extra attacks gained now.

He has a 2+ save so there is literally no point in casting Shield on him unless you are facing AP-4 weapons. Hellblasters, melta and Knight weapons spring to mind but not much else. He still gets a 5+ save even against things like lascannons.

[Blindhamster]

Space marine lascannons and any kind of plasma depending on current doctrine

[Aothaine]

 

Until you're up against marines and they pop transhuman phisiology and a 3++ and then eat him with return attacks since he has no invulnerable save.

 

Or they sacrifice unit A to then swoop in and eat him with plasma/dev doctrine weapons, or snipe him off the board before he can get into the lines. Again, because he doesn't have an invulnerable save.

 

Like seriously don't charge him into a unit of IF centurions.

 

Fair point on the transhuman physiology. But if you're charging units like malph into IF Centurions then you need a little lesson in strategic war gaming. That is a unit you want to shoot dead, not charge. Unless you have a way to shut down their overwatch anyway.

 

I know much has not changed with him. But I still like him. He is a monster as he should be.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

 

 

IF slash/smash captain can't be wounded on less than a 4+ and halves all damage while sporting a 3++. Mephiston gaining a 4++ is nothing by comparison.

 

Indeedy. Is that half damage thing an IH ability?

 

The Imperial fists war lord traits. 1 halves damage, and the other makes it where they can't be wounded on less than a 4+. You take the stratagem to allow your warlord to take a second warlord trait and then you have an absolute monstrous tank. 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

 

Without casting shield; however I think shield is a must now. Like try to roll it every turn you aren't assaulting; and maybe even then. I'd rather have an extra 5++ than an additional 3" and d3 attacks with all the extra attacks gained now.

He has a 2+ save so there is literally no point in casting Shield on him unless you are facing AP-4 weapons. Hellblasters, melta and Knight weapons spring to mind but not much else. He still gets a 5+ save even against things like lascannons.

 

Man playing against marines is pretty tough; I just don't understand why he can't have a 4++. Look at Calgar by comparison. Dude has ALL the things, T 5 8 wounds a 2+ save and a 4++ from his armor. He's a beast in combat as well. The difference being we don't complain about Calgar being so OP yet Mephiston would be with a 4++/5++ I understand where you're coming from, but man getting hit by storm of fire and a doctrine is pretty awful if Mephy gets left on an island.

[Indefragable]

...don’t forget that Calgar reduces all damage taken by half (rounding up) on top of all that.

[Karhedron]

Assuming we get some of the new Stratagems, we may be able to pop Transhuman Physiology on Mephy ourselves. Food for thought....

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Assuming we get some of the new Stratagems, we may be able to pop Transhuman Physiology on Mephy ourselves. Food for thought....

I've thought about that; but I would rather spend the 2 CPs on our smash captain who does more damage and has a 3++ in combat rather than on Mephiston. Garunteed 3/4 damage rather than D3 in that sense. I do hope we get that stratagem though!

[Blindhamster]

Calgar got over the top rules because hes the posterboy. Totally illogical how good he is compared to other marine characters.

[FormelyKnownAsSmashyPants]

I wouldn't be adverse to changing plasma overheat to d3 mortal wounds. Admittedly it could be worse for units with single wounds, but it means someone like mephiston wouldn't be insta gribbed. Taking out three members of a single wound squad would be sucky, but could be justified fluff wise by saying the weapon exploding took out a couple of squaddies. OC 1 mortal wound would be better, but I could live with the scenario I outlined above. But the way it is now just sucks :cuss so much.

[Panzer]

There's no need for a general catch all rule, especially when there's already Plasma that only does mortal wounds when overheating. For units with multiple plasma carrying models it's fine for the model to be killed outright since otherwise it would get messy with wounds allocation, however for every single model with multiple wounds it should be just mortal wounds imo.

[Indefragable]

Yea overheating plasma = mortal wounds and/or can not be used again in the game after failing makes the most logical sense.