Omni-scramblers v Spore mines

[Nemisor]

My question is, when a biovore misses with a spore mine it says the mine is setup outside of 6".

 

Where im getting confused is i was fairly certain that in an faq GW described reinforcements are anything unit that is set up once the game has begun.

 

So following that do Omni-scramblers prevent spore mines being set up within 12"

 

Couldnt find any specific reference in either the nids faq or the marine one.

[Slasher956]

Having just checked the FAQs the closest thing I can find is this in the rulebook FAQ

 

So If spore mines are a unit then this says that as there is a requirement to pay reinforcement points they should be counted as reinforcements... IF thats the case then yes omni-scramblers would work

 

 

 

Q: If a rule creates a new unit during the battle in a matched play game and adds them to my army, must I pay for the unit with my reinforcement points?

A: Yes (unless the rule itself says otherwise). If you don’t have enough reinforcement points, you cannot add that unit to your army.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

Spore mines created by a Biovore do not cost reinforcement points.

[TheWolfLord]

Any new unit setup on the battlefield counts as a reinforcement for rules that are triggered when a unit is setup on the battlefield as reinforcements. 

 

the fact reinforcement points are not used in matched play games doesn’t mean the unit doesn’t count as reinforcements for these rules.

 

That unfortunately means that any rules that stop you setting up reinforcements within 12 would also stop spore mines.

 

I’m aware that the spore mine couldn’t be placed and would therefore be destroyed but those are the current rules.

 

I suspect spore mines should be exempt from this rule as it’s not possible to place them outside of the 12” so it needs to be raised with GW as an FAQ 

[Cornishman]

The crux of this seems to be answering what constitutes ‘Reinforcements’?

 

Tactical Reserves does seem to provide a general definition:

Instead of being set up on the battlefield during deployment, many units have the ability to be set up on teleportariums, in high orbit, in ambush,
etc., in order to arrive on the battlefield mid-game as reinforcements...

 

 

But what about Daemon summoning? They all seem to include this sentence

...This unit is treated as reinforcements for your army and can be placed anywhere on the battlefield...'

 

Additionally, Summoning Daemons occurs at the end of the movement phase, which is when units ‘held in reserve’ (which also are reinforcements) may be deployed.

 

Spore Mines produced by Biovores shooting attacks missing their targets are not units on the army roster so don’t fall under the definitions offered by ‘Tactical Reserves’.

 

Their rules for creation are a by-product of the attack so occurs in the shooting phase, and thus whilst the spore mine(s) are a new unit their deployment seems very much inconsistent with everything I can think off that definitely labelled as (or as if) a reinforcement (i.e. end of the movement phase).

 

 

On this basis I would say that Spore Mines are certainly new units, but are not reinforcements, thus Omni Scramblers (or any similar affects) would have no affects.
 

Edited November 25, 2019 by Cornishman

[BluejayJunior]

It may be different from other things that come on the board as reinforcements, but there is nothing about coming in at the end of the movement phase that defines reinforcements. You can't determine whether or not something counts as reinforcements by when it appears on the board, because nothing about the reinforcements rule defines reinforcements as coming in at the end of the movement phase. The vast majority of reinforcement units do appear at that time, but that is due to their specific rules, not the reinforcements rule as a whole. Therefore, you can't use the timing to determine whether or not something counts as reinforcements. 

Summoning daemons are not on your army list either, but still come in as reinforcements. 

[Cornishman]

It may be different from other things that come on the board as reinforcements, but there is nothing about coming in at the end of the movement phase that defines reinforcements. You can't determine whether or not something counts as reinforcements by when it appears on the board, because nothing about the reinforcements rule defines reinforcements as coming in at the end of the movement phase. The vast majority of reinforcement units do appear at that time, but that is due to their specific rules, not the reinforcements rule as a whole. Therefore, you can't use the timing to determine whether or not something counts as reinforcements. 

Summoning daemons are not on your army list either, but still come in as reinforcements. 

As I specifically showed, summoned Daemons are reinforcements, not because of when they arrive, but because the rule for summoning them defines them as reinforcements.

 

The description of Tactical Reserves makes those units held in 'Reserves' reinforcements.

 

I see nothing that makes Sporemines produced from missed Biovore shots 'Reinforcements'. They are new unit(s) granted, but this does not equal reinforcements.

 

 

Edited November 25, 2019 by Cornishman

[TheWolfLord]

Sorry for this long post but the FAQ that covers this is very large.

 

They count as reinforcements for the purposes of these rules thanks to a FAQ on p9 of the main rulebook FAQ.

 

“Q: What rules apply to units that are removed from the battlefield after deployment (via abilities, Stratagems or psychic powers), and are then set back up again on the battlefield?

 

A: If a rule or ability causes a unit to be removed from the battlefield and subsequently set back up, the following rules apply to that unit:

 

1. Any rules that are triggered by or apply to units that are ‘set up on the battlefield as reinforcements’ are also triggered by and apply to that unit when it is set up on the battlefield.

 

2. Models in that unit count as having moved a distance equal to their Move characteristic that turn (and so suffer the penalty to their hit rolls for moving and firing Heavy weapons). If the unit has a minimum Move characteristic, it counts as having moved its maximum Move characteristic.

 

3. Models in that unit cannot move again during that turn for any reason, other than to make a charge move, to pile in, or to consolidate.

 

4. If that unit was within 1" of an enemy unit when it was removed, it does not count as having Fallen Back when it is set back up on the battlefield.

 

5. If that unit has Advanced during this turn, it still counts as having Advanced after it has been set back up on the battlefield.

 

6. Any destroyed models in that unit when it is removed are still destroyed when their unit is set back up on the battlefield. If they were destroyed during this turn, they still count towards any Morale tests taken for that unit this turn.

 

7. Any models in that unit that have lost any wounds do not regain those wounds when they are removed, and will still have lost them when their unit is set back up on the battlefield.

 

8. Any rules that unit was being affected by when it was removed, and which would continue to affect it for a specific duration (from abilities, Stratagems, psychic powers, etc.), continue to affect that unit until such a point as they would normally have no longer applied. For example, a unit that was within range of an aura ability when it was removed would no longer be affected by that ability if it was set up outside of that aura’s range, whereas a unit that was being affected by a psychic power that lasted until the end of that turn would still be affected by it until the end of that turn.

 

Note that points 5-8 do not apply to any unit set up via the Sustained Assault rule, any unit that has been added to your army during the battle and has been set up (such as those added via the Daemonic Ritual ability), or units set up via any of the following Stratagems: Fresh Converts (see Codex: Adeptus Mechanicus), Tide of Traitors (see Codex: Chaos Space Marines), Unstoppable Green Tide (see Codex: Orks), More Where They Came From (see Imperium Nihilus: Vigilus Ablaze), Send in the Next Wave (Codex: Astra Militarum), and Endless Swarm (Codex: Tyranids). These Stratagems represent new units joining the fight, rather than the existing units being repositioned on the battlefield.”

 

Now the initial question asks about units being removed from the table and set up again but the last paragraph covers new units and gives daemonic summoning as an example.

 

In the case of a new unit being set up you ignore points 5-8 but still apply points 1-4. As spore mines are treated as a new unit being set up this FAQ applies to them so they follow these rules and therefore they trigger any rules that apply when a unit is set up on the battlefield as reinforcements.

 

​***Note that points 5-8 do not apply to any unit set up via the Sustained Assault rule, any unit that has been added to your army during the battle and has been set up (such as those added via the Daemonic Ritual ability)***

Edited November 25, 2019 by TheWolfLord

[Cornishman]

 

Sorry for this long post but the FAQ that covers this is very large.

 

They count as reinforcements for the purposes of these rules thanks to a FAQ on p9 of the main rulebook FAQ.

 

“Q: What rules apply to units that are removed from the battlefield after deployment (via abilities, Stratagems or psychic powers), and are then set back up again on the battlefield?

 

 

The spore mines (created from missed Biovore shooting attacks) aren't removed from the table and then set up again....

 

The FAQ answer does apply to Unstoppable Green Tide (and similar affects) as these affects are to paraphrase 'remove the unit from the table, and set it up again'. Endless swarm specifies 'and set it up as reinforcements'

Edited November 26, 2019 by Cornishman

[TheWolfLord]

 

 

Sorry for this long post but the FAQ that covers this is very large.

 

They count as reinforcements for the purposes of these rules thanks to a FAQ on p9 of the main rulebook FAQ.

 

“Q: What rules apply to units that are removed from the battlefield after deployment (via abilities, Stratagems or psychic powers), and are then set back up again on the battlefield?

 

 

The spore mines (created from missed Biovore shooting attacks) aren't removed from the table and then set up again....

 

The FAQ answer does apply to Unstoppable Green Tide (and similar affects) as these affects are to paraphrase 'remove the unit from the table, and set it up again'. Endless swarm specifies 'and set it up as reinforcements'

 

I’m aware that Spore Mines are not removed from the table to be set up again.

 

Luckily as I highlighted the FAQ covers units that are added to the table as new units too and clarifies that points 5-8 do not apply but points 1-4 do.

 

Send in the Next Wave adds a new unit to the battle field and doesn’t state they arrive as reinforcements but are another example given in this FAQ.

 

GW has created a thorough FAQ that covers all situations and any new unit is treated as a reinforcement when setup for rules such as Auspex Scan or Omni-scramblers.

 

I personally think spore mines fired from a biovore should be exempt from omnibus-scramblers but this forum deals with rules as written and due to that FAQ spore mines are effected by such rules. 

[Cornishman]

 

 

 

Sorry for this long post but the FAQ that covers this is very large.

 

They count as reinforcements for the purposes of these rules thanks to a FAQ on p9 of the main rulebook FAQ.

 

“Q: What rules apply to units that are removed from the battlefield after deployment (via abilities, Stratagems or psychic powers), and are then set back up again on the battlefield?

 

 

The spore mines (created from missed Biovore shooting attacks) aren't removed from the table and then set up again....

 

The FAQ answer does apply to Unstoppable Green Tide (and similar affects) as these affects are to paraphrase 'remove the unit from the table, and set it up again'. Endless swarm specifies 'and set it up as reinforcements'

 

I’m aware that Spore Mines are not removed from the table to be set up again.

 

Luckily as I highlighted the FAQ covers units that are added to the table as new units too and clarifies that points 5-8 do not apply but points 1-4 do.

 

Send in the Next Wave adds a new unit to the battle field and doesn’t state they arrive as reinforcements but are another example given in this FAQ.

 

GW has created a thorough FAQ that covers all situations and any new unit is treated as a reinforcement when setup for rules such as Auspex Scan or Omni-scramblers.

 

I personally think spore mines fired from a biovore should be exempt from omnibus-scramblers but this forum deals with rules as written and due to that FAQ spore mines are effected by such rules. 

 

 

Actually is doesn't state that points 1-4 apply to any new unit. Saying points 5-8 don't apply only implies that points 1-4 do apply. At which point it could also be implied that the application of this implication is framed by the context of the original question in the FAQ. In which case the creation of the spore mine unit falls outside of the context of the question.

[Spacecow]

 

 

It may be different from other things that come on the board as reinforcements, but there is nothing about coming in at the end of the movement phase that defines reinforcements. You can't determine whether or not something counts as reinforcements by when it appears on the board, because nothing about the reinforcements rule defines reinforcements as coming in at the end of the movement phase. The vast majority of reinforcement units do appear at that time, but that is due to their specific rules, not the reinforcements rule as a whole. Therefore, you can't use the timing to determine whether or not something counts as reinforcements.

Summoning daemons are not on your army list either, but still come in as reinforcements.

As I specifically showed, summoned Daemons are reinforcements, not because of when they arrive, but because the rule for summoning them defines them as reinforcements.

 

The description of Tactical Reserves makes those units held in 'Reserves' reinforcements.

 

I see nothing that makes Sporemines produced from missed Biovore shots 'Reinforcements'. They are new unit(s) granted, but this does not equal reinforcements.

 

Spore mines have the ability Living Bombs.

In matched the creation of them by another unit is free and the points cost does not come out of your pool of reinforcement points.

 

It does not say it’s not reinforcement, it just iterates that’s it’s free.

 

So Omni scrambles would prevent them from setting up :)

Edited November 27, 2019 by Spacecow

[Cornishman]

 

 

It may be different from other things that come on the board as reinforcements, but there is nothing about coming in at the end of the movement phase that defines reinforcements. You can't determine whether or not something counts as reinforcements by when it appears on the board, because nothing about the reinforcements rule defines reinforcements as coming in at the end of the movement phase. The vast majority of reinforcement units do appear at that time, but that is due to their specific rules, not the reinforcements rule as a whole. Therefore, you can't use the timing to determine whether or not something counts as reinforcements.

Summoning daemons are not on your army list either, but still come in as reinforcements.

As I specifically showed, summoned Daemons are reinforcements, not because of when they arrive, but because the rule for summoning them defines them as reinforcements.

 

The description of Tactical Reserves makes those units held in 'Reserves' reinforcements.

 

I see nothing that makes Sporemines produced from missed Biovore shots 'Reinforcements'. They are new unit(s) granted, but this does not equal reinforcements.

 

Spore mines have the ability Living Bombs.

In matched the creation of them by another unit is free and the points cost does not come out of your pool of reinforcement points.

 

It does not say it’s not reinforcement, it just iterates that’s it’s free.

 

So Omni scrambles would prevent them from setting up

 

So where does it state they are reinforcements?

[Spacecow]

 

 

 

 

It may be different from other things that come on the board as reinforcements, but there is nothing about coming in at the end of the movement phase that defines reinforcements. You can't determine whether or not something counts as reinforcements by when it appears on the board, because nothing about the reinforcements rule defines reinforcements as coming in at the end of the movement phase. The vast majority of reinforcement units do appear at that time, but that is due to their specific rules, not the reinforcements rule as a whole. Therefore, you can't use the timing to determine whether or not something counts as reinforcements.

Summoning daemons are not on your army list either, but still come in as reinforcements.

As I specifically showed, summoned Daemons are reinforcements, not because of when they arrive, but because the rule for summoning them defines them as reinforcements.

 

The description of Tactical Reserves makes those units held in 'Reserves' reinforcements.

 

I see nothing that makes Sporemines produced from missed Biovore shots 'Reinforcements'. They are new unit(s) granted, but this does not equal reinforcements.

Spore mines have the ability Living Bombs.

In matched the creation of them by another unit is free and the points cost does not come out of your pool of reinforcement points.

 

It does not say it’s not reinforcement, it just iterates that’s it’s free.

 

So Omni scrambles would prevent them from setting up

So where does it state they are reinforcements?

In the core rules. They state following definition for reinforcement

 

 

Reinforcements

Many units have the ability to be set up on the battlefield mid-turn, sometimes by using teleporters, grav chutes or other, more esoteric means. Typically, this happens at the end of the Movement phase, but it can also happen during other phases. Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive – their entire Movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield – but they can otherwise act normally (shoot, charge, etc.) for the rest of their turn. Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purposes, such as shooting Heavy weapons. Any unit that has not arrived on the battlefield by the end of the battle counts as having been destroyed.

 

 

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Warhammer-40k-Battle-Primer-English-3.pdf

 

Link to the core rule sheet.

 

I don’t see any indication in there why it would not be classified as reinforcement.

[Cornishman]

Ah, the side bar (in the movement phase)! Guess I missed that one. Silly me

Yup they're reinforcements.

[TheWolfLord]

 

 

 

 

Sorry for this long post but the FAQ that covers this is very large.

 

They count as reinforcements for the purposes of these rules thanks to a FAQ on p9 of the main rulebook FAQ.

 

“Q: What rules apply to units that are removed from the battlefield after deployment (via abilities, Stratagems or psychic powers), and are then set back up again on the battlefield?

 

 

The spore mines (created from missed Biovore shooting attacks) aren't removed from the table and then set up again....

 

The FAQ answer does apply to Unstoppable Green Tide (and similar affects) as these affects are to paraphrase 'remove the unit from the table, and set it up again'. Endless swarm specifies 'and set it up as reinforcements'

 

I’m aware that Spore Mines are not removed from the table to be set up again.

 

Luckily as I highlighted the FAQ covers units that are added to the table as new units too and clarifies that points 5-8 do not apply but points 1-4 do.

 

Send in the Next Wave adds a new unit to the battle field and doesn’t state they arrive as reinforcements but are another example given in this FAQ.

 

GW has created a thorough FAQ that covers all situations and any new unit is treated as a reinforcement when setup for rules such as Auspex Scan or Omni-scramblers.

 

I personally think spore mines fired from a biovore should be exempt from omnibus-scramblers but this forum deals with rules as written and due to that FAQ spore mines are effected by such rules. 

 

 

Actually is doesn't state that points 1-4 apply to any new unit. Saying points 5-8 don't apply only implies that points 1-4 do apply. At which point it could also be implied that the application of this implication is framed by the context of the original question in the FAQ. In which case the creation of the spore mine unit falls outside of the context of the question.

 

If the FAQ did not apply to all new units then there would be no need to clarify that points 5-8 do not apply as none of the points would apply. 

 

As Spacecow says, any unit being setup on the field mid game satisfies the definition of a reinforcement.

 

The FAQ I posted simply clarifies what exactly that means in game terms and how to treat other rule interactions.

 

edit, apologies Cornishman, your previous post and this one crossed so I wasn’t aware you now agreed.

Edited November 28, 2019 by TheWolfLord

[ValourousHeart]

Any new unit setup on the battlefield counts as a reinforcement for rules that are triggered when a unit is setup on the battlefield as reinforcements. 

 

the fact reinforcement points are not used in matched play games doesn’t mean the unit doesn’t count as reinforcements for these rules.

 

That unfortunately means that any rules that stop you setting up reinforcements within 12 would also stop spore mines.

 

I’m aware that the spore mine couldn’t be placed and would therefore be destroyed but those are the current rules.

 

I suspect spore mines should be exempt from this rule as it’s not possible to place them outside of the 12” so it needs to be raised with GW as an FAQ 

 

Why is it not possible to set up the spore mine outside of 12 inches?

 

The rule for placing them says place them outside of 6 inches of the target unit.

Well outside 12 inches is a valid placement that adheres to the outside of 6 inches placement rule.

 

Also the base rules for the game state that you must place new units more than 9 inches away from an enemy model, unless some other rule(s) change that.

And GSC get to place units with one of their rules less than 9 inches away which on its face seems very similar to spore mines being allowed to set up more than 6 inches away.

There is an FAQ question about GSC and Omni-Scramblers that states that GSC has to deploy more than 12 inches away from a unit with an Omni-Scrambler.

 

So with both the Spore Mine placement rule and FAQs for similar rules the Nid player would get the Spore Mine but would have to place it farther away than typical.

Edited December 24, 2019 by ValourousHeart

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

Last I checked, it was within 6 and outside of 3?

[Panzer]

That's right. Otherwise you could just place them wherever on the board that's not even close to the target you were shooting at.