Some more noob questions

[Prot]

That is a *lot* of changes in one go, can it even be called tweaks at this point?

With a 'fresh' army i think it's important to get to know it bit before making any changes, less so changing it wholesale.

Yes you lost badly against dark eldar but what could you have done differently? Was the mission or terrain particularly helpful? Was your Wrath guard being transported or teleporting, did they do something mission critical before being poisoned to death?

Were you able to zone him out?

And yeah -2 to hit sucks but there is melee..

I know your environment is exceptionally cut-throat, but people keep saying the best generals win regardless of list.... Can you chop your falcon into a night spinner?

Which WK build will you take?

 

Well first off I am no best General. Lol.

 

Secondly I am not playing to win. I am playing to understand. I do not own all these models so working out some of the proxies I’m using is helping me understand before committing to some of the bigger expenses and changes.

 

Thirdly I completely agree it’s a wholesale change. The reason being I feel I’ve overcommitted to an enjoyable theme that might not work.

 

This was my second game with the list and some very apparent things have stuck out to me. The big one in this game was that most of what I brought was almost entirely outclassed by tournament level DE. I was out shot, out maneuvered, out assaulted, and lost the board control game through early, devastating losses.

 

There was a point I considered overloading his flank back in my turn one but I would have been completely cornered, allowing too much freedom to his Talos squad which I had no answer for. His ranged Ravagers were better than anything I had by T2. So I would have (I assume) just lost slower.

 

I’m not perfect. I realized a few minor things I should have done but the big glaring thing that stuck out to me was I simply cannot do the Dark Eldar thing. They’re better at it.

 

Also the biggest regret I have is not realizing sooner how much reliance some of mediocre units have on Psychic prowess. I have to fix that ASAP. And I should have know better... I play Thousand Sons which have a very similar reliance.

 

 

 

 

Vibro Cannons look great, and Guardians are a very versatile unit, I think those are good changes.

 

The Wraithknight, I am interested to hear about. Even with the points drop it still does not seem like a competitive choice to me. Although I understand it is also a place holder currently.

 

I see the guardians as necessary in this list (kind of surprised they didn’t get a drop). I have had a lot of trouble with massed troops and screens. I struggled so much to hit tough targets with all these really surprising platforms that are incapable of moving and shooting. The Vibros are an easy replacement on paper anyway. They take good advantage of Expert Crafters.

 

The Wraithknight is perhaps just a placeholder as you say ( I’ll be using an Imperial Knight for him). I’m looking at the sun cannon shield variant for maximum efficiency. This becomes the cheapest super heavy walker thingy in the game I believe. Unlike a lot of other factions, this army can actually buff him. So perhaps even as a distraction carnifex this could take heat off the other wraith units and vehicles.

 

I have two games scheduled this week. Not sure what I’m playing on Wednesday but I’ll update with some results. Thanks for your opinions guys. I appreciate it.

Edited December 10, 2019 by Prot

[Captain_Krash]

I truely believe the Wraithknight is going to surprise you. Most people scoff at it due to what 8th did to the poor thing...but you will see the difference especially now that it benefits from other eldar buffs, cheaper points. I'm partial to the sword and board variant but the suncannon does look like it can do work on paper. 

 

I'm one of the crazy people that would field two Wraithknights both sword and board and just move them at the enemy to see what they can accomplish

 

Krash 

[Emicus]

'If you think a knight can be shot off the board t1, wait til you see it without a built in invuln or super cheap 4++, now with worse shooting for freeeeeee. Limited time offer: no stratagems and your entire army's psychic might will have to focus to keep it alive.'

[Slasher956]

And Emicus has hit where the problem with Wraithknights is.... its their surivablity in a meta thats built for removing Imperial knights in a turn :(

[Captain_Krash]

Exactly why it needs the shield. Plus being a wraith army you can buff it with psychic support and possible regain wounds etc.

 

Krash

[Slasher956]

possible regain wounds etc.

 

Krash

 

Via that 70 point legends model the bonesinger....

 

yep Its not a vehicle so the Vaul craftworld trait wont heal it... and I cant think of any Aeldari psychic powers that heal models....

Edited December 11, 2019 by Slasher956

[Prot]

Well it seems the Wraithknight is easily the most contentious list change I'm trying out. Please keep in mind I'm just trying it out. 

 

I don't anticipate the Knight to last more than 2 turns, 3 if I'm lucky, and 1 if I'm unlucky.

 

However that said against the Dark Eldar the other night I lost 2-3 units in T1, so what's the difference? If I can suck up a bunch of firepower on a T8 model with an invuln.... it's not a fool proof plan by any means, but I think there's a bit more to it than "Knights die in T1". Everything dies nowadays in T1.

 

 

'If you think a knight can be shot off the board t1, wait til you see it without a built in invuln or super cheap 4++, now with worse shooting for freeeeeee. Limited time offer: no stratagems and your entire army's psychic might will have to focus to keep it alive.'

 

So to this I would say my Knight will have a built in save. There are strategems that work for the unit, and I agree psychic might is definitely necessary. Aside from Chaos with Forgeworld units, the Eldar are going to have the best shot of making this work.

 

 

And Emicus has hit where the problem with Wraithknights is.... its their surivablity in a meta thats built for removing Imperial knights in a turn

 

It's true. I'm not going to deny it, but I look at the tournament meta right now. It's full of a plethora of S7-S8 shots with D2.  I can either have... let's say that squad of Lootas fire 40 shots at S7 at a few artillery units, or tanks, or I can take it on the chin with a T8 unit. Plus since it is the obvious "distraction carnifex", it will be buffed by psychics. It really can't be ignored.

 

 

 

possible regain wounds etc.

 

Krash

 

Via that 70 point legends model the bonesinger....

 

yep Its not a vehicle so the Vaul craftworld trait wont heal it... and I cant think of any Aeldari psychic powers that heal models....

 

 

 

I've been using Tears of Isha Strat (?) to heal my Wraithlords. Would this not work on a Wraithknight too?

 

I'll tell you why I've decided to try this unit specifically.

 

What I'm having trouble with already with this army is providing a tough unit that actually deals damage. Some are tough, some deal damage. The problem is no one shoots at a tough unit that isn't a real threat.

 

1. The Wraithlords were supposed to do that, but the 3rd edition nature of their really offensive guns, and the fact they can't move and shoot is a real detriment. The fact they are 10 wounds, have a degrading scale, are Monstrous creatures are all negatives to me. These guys get picked on early. Heck I think I'm seeing the Wave Serpents are more annoying to opponents to be honest.

 

2. The second idea was a larger squad of Wraiths. Just as I started doing this experiment CA19 came out which makes the axes/shields a better combo for this idea. The idea being a 'blob' of Wraith move up the field, as the distraction carnifex. There's nothing wrong this idea, I just think it requires even more babysitting, and is still not as survivable, and can't shoot. 

 

General considerations include most of my list is vehicle based except for troops, and I actually think the Suncannon is a good weapon in a marine meta. 

 

The Wraithknight is the cheapest  'true' superheavy walker (I believe) in the game right now. If it's not going to work at this point level, it's just not going to work ever imo. 

 

Regardless it might be a very short lived experiment. The 'plan' has issues. If I have first turn, then the WK is going to have a 5++ fnp. This is the same power I would typically cast on ONE of my Wraithlords. But people just shoot up the non-buffed one. So I've removed both Wraithlords to put towards the WK. 

 

For now I can proxy a chaos Knight for the WK. I'll get a feel for it tonight. If it sucks I'll probably really have to figure out if the Wraith premise is going to work for me. 

 

As a side note I'm also looking forward to trying the Wraithfighter! Awesome model.

Edited December 11, 2019 by Prot

[Slasher956]

re the strat - If it works on a wraithlord then it'll work on the wraithknight

 

I cant remember half the strats so it doesnt supprise me that I missed the one that heals our units :p

[Prot]

Okay here's a alternate question.

 

If I pull out the Wraithknight, what would fill that gap that gives survivabilty, an alpha threat, and can hit hard? At that point level I can see suggestions of... Fire Prisms, or more Wraithguard...then maybe Spears with the new Exarch ability.  I don't know really.

[Karhedron]

I have found Fire Prisms very good. Their range is part of their protection since many heavy weapons max out at 48" so they can sit back and blaze away with limited retaliation.

[Emicus]

An avenger gatling cannon with 2d6 rather than flat 12 just feels so... Meh, you know?

 

Skathatch is so much better, but is paying out the nose for the teleport ability.

 

Does every list need a distraction carnifex? Without heavies the enemies heavy weapons are overpriced infantry over-killers. But casualties will happen.

 

WK can't be hidden, you need t1 to throw 2-3 spells on it and even then all you want it for is a massive bullet sponge

 

Best case scenario t2 it chargeds and begins to tap-dance. Noob like me will go 'ahh it's big, kill it', but your fire hardened crew will likely work around it. After all, bullet sponges not getting shot get way less value.

 

10 axeblades cost the same, but with the same buffs are way more durable than a WK, and with the web way strat they are arguably more mobile too, at least for the turns that count.

 

And they can hide behind a moderately sized brick wall.

[Emicus]

I realize I'm really ragging on the WK here, it's out of frustration because I want to use it but I know I gimp myself by doing so. And since I'm already limiting my eldar it's the straw that will break the camels back.

 

Its too easy to compare it to a knight. Practically the same stats and points but the knight has effectively the sword, the feet, the shield and a better sun cannon, all at the same time. Indeed also a codex worth of stratagems whereas the WK has 1.

 

Yes we shouldn't compare 1:1 and rather look at support elements as a whole, but dang nabbit...

 

Any strategy that requires the opponent to make a mistake (like focusing a bullet sponge) won't work long term. I always assume my opponent is much cleverer than me.

 

But then.. Can the WK work? Does a tap-dancing WK do enough work? As always the solution may be to max them out... By doing this support elements for the WKs are superfluous because you can't buff them all.

 

1125 for 3.

 

Then take as much murder potential as humanly (aeldarily?) possible in the remaining 875. Dark reapers, weapon platforms, Farseers. Anything that holds backfield and can't be 'easy targets' compared to the 3wks bearing down

[Karhedron]

But then.. Can the WK work? Does a tap-dancing WK do enough work? As always the solution may be to max them out... By doing this support elements for the WKs are superfluous because you can't buff them all.

 

1125 for 3.

Tap-dancing should not be underestimated. It is roughly as destructive as 4 battlecannons on a platform that can move 12" as well as withdraw, shoot and charge in your own turn. Is 375 points the price of the Cannon/Shield knight? If so, it might be viable. Put an Autarch with wings or Jetbike and they can reroll all the 1s. That is a lot of shooting to buff. Combined with Alaitoc (-1 to-Hit), Ulthwé (6+++) or the new concealed trait (+1 save outside 12"), you can stack a couple of buffs quite cheaply. Doom a target as well for extra oomph.

 

I am not certain but it might at least have potential.

[Captain_Krash]

Just to plug a Wraithknight working in ITC for those that are skeptical (May also help you Prot as it helped me follow how Eldar work better in games)

 

List discussion: https://www.goonhammer.com/tournament-preview-three-cool-lists-from-blood-and-glory/

Battle Reports: https://www.goonhammer.com/tournament-report-blood-and-glory-2019/

He went 4-1 

 

He does stupid well and you can actually see how it works in game. 

 

I do not like ITC as its effectively a different game but that is the most competitive ruleset and the Wraithknight is shown to work. it is even pre point changes CA2019.

 

Krash 

Edited December 12, 2019 by Captain_Krash

[Prot]

Krash that's awesome. Thanks for the article links. I'm still trying to keep him. I did post up a batrep yesterday based on my WK experiences, with a few pics, vs Orks.  I note that I need to take the Vigilus Defiant detachment.

 

That said I really enjoyed the flyer, but as you note ITC is a different animal. I agree with you, it's not my preferred way of playing, but it is a hardcore environment. A lot of 'going first' at critical match ups in those batreps. 

 

I am keeping him for another game. He just absorbed a ton of firepower, but his offensive output was actually quite poor.

 

Another NOOB question: Can I disperse the Serpent shields with the stratagem for a second time in the same turn I initially dispersed them?

[Captain_Krash]

Sorry Prot whats the name of the Strat don't have my codex in front of me. 

 

Krash

[Prot]

Just looking it up on my phone. The wording is weird, but I know in tournaments I've had people use it on me in the same turn the originally dispersed the shields. So just looking for clarity:

 

Overload Energy Field Projectors:

 

Use this strat in shooting phase. Pick a friendly wave serpent that discharged its shield in an earlier turn. It can immediately discharge the shield again. 

[Emicus]

Would the current turn count as an earlier turn??

[Prot]

Well the wording could mean this and any preceding turn. I really don't know, but I do know it's happened to me in a tournament but I'm not sure if that was correctly done.

[Slasher956]

i don’t think so....I read ‘earlier turn’ as being before the current turn.

[Captain_Krash]

I agree this should only legally work if you used it in a prior turn due to the wording as RAW. Would be a great Q&A GW question for there intent.

 

Krash

Edited December 13, 2019 by Captain_Krash

[Prot]

Okay from now on I will only use it in a subsequent turn, and never in the same turn the shields are initially dispersed.

 

Thanks as always for your opinions guys. 

 

I had another game pushing the Wraithknight proxy. Not great, but I am kind of dying on this hill. lol

[Emicus]

Try doubling or trippling down? Complete overload

[Slasher956]

Prot...on my shopping list is a hemlock (currently have 0 flyers) and a wraith Knight (have 3 x wraithlords and 3 x 5 wraithguards.....I’m a poor boy these days!) Edited December 14, 2019 by Slasher956

[sultansean]

I think your reasoning with the Wraithknight is good, IE a bullet sponge to keep other things alive. If you are not playing a list on terrain that lets you hide everything first turn, then I think it has a good points to survivability ratio. 

If you enjoy podcasts, you should give the latest "Art of War" with Colin Sherman a listen, he really likes his Wraithlords. And I agree that they provide a nice versatility to Elder, with expert crafters.