What is your least favorite HH novel?

[mc warhammer]

i feel like there’s two criteria in this thread:

 

the book was badly written

 

the book didn’t give me what i want

[Roomsky]

 

I also like false gods a lot less than the others in the original trilogy, it could have been done much better. The zombies were dull, and Horus's character seemed to jump a load from Horus rising to the start of this one

 

I think at the time one of my biggest disappointments going into False Gods was the timeskip. We never got to see the aftermath of the dealings with the Interex, we're just told they'd been wiped during campaign and Horus was still bitter about it. There was an obvious story to tell, still is, to transition Horus from the noble, compromise-seeking Warmaster, trying to cope with the to him irrational betrayal by the Interex, to the bloke bitter and mad about the foe and the Imperium's policies. The Interex just didn't provide anything after the fact.

 

I'd even make the argument that a short novel or novella covering the Interex conflict could serve as a way to bridge the leap between Horus as the loyal son to him actually believing the chaos visions on Davin. We know the Interex had been in touch with tainted species and artifacts, the Anathame most notably but not the only thing. So it stands to reason that any sort of large-scale warfare with the Interex - who could be considered a Tau Empire Pre-Alpha - would also lead to the Xenos-lovers employing tainted weaponry like that. This could easily serve as an opening for weakening Horus' resolve properly, rather than just telling us briefly that he got upset over not being able to make peace (a notion he originally held despite general Imperial policy!) and being turned into more and more of a pen-pusher, and lead more towards the revelations of False Gods being a confirmation of what had come before, rather than a sudden "y'know, I think I believe you, not-Sejanus, my daddy hates me" moment.

 

 

Slap some flashbacks on there for appropriate juxtaposition and you've figured the perfect subject matter for a Horus Primarchs book.

[bluntblade]

i feel like there’s two criteria in this thread:

 

the book was badly written

 

the book didn’t give me what i want

I feel like there's an interesting comparison to be made with the demands often made of the new Stars Wars films. Perhaps it's even more pronounced here, as the HH is explicitly backstory.

[Carach]

Haven't read Tallarn, Pythos, Deathfire, or Old Earth so cannot comment on them. 

 

That being said though, the reasons I haven't read the latter two especially is because Vulkan Lives was so repetitive that I simply refuse to read another full length Kyme novel, and i found that the 'shattered legions' were getting far too much time in print generally that I just wasn't interested. I have heard Old Earth is one of Kyme's best but the opinions of some folks here is so hit and miss i'm not taking the chance. 

 

So Vulkan Lives tops my list of least favourite novels.

Followed by Fear to Tread - it started so well, but became repetitive bolter porn for the second half of the book.

Deliverance Lost was another one that started pretty well but turned into some questionable plot. 

 

Kyme's short stuff is really good so i kind of feel bad for being so damning of some of his full length novels..

[mc warhammer]

right? i’ve read 2 kyme shorts and none of his long form stuff- and really liked them

[DarkChaplain]

Agreed, Kyme excels at short stories, whereas with novels (or indeed novellas) he often loses focus and just doesn't get to the point in elegant ways.

 

As for the Shattered Legions, I still don't think their relative representation within the series was disproportionate. They featured in sideplots here and there, but actual content to themselves? Hell, the Iron Hands in particular had an entire novel rolled into Old Earth alongside the Salamanders and a third Perpetual plotline. The Raven Guard had two books total in the entire series, the Iron Hands had one to themselves, Salamanders got three, with the third barely being about them anymore. Shattered Legions in general had one main anthology, but that's for various groups of them, rather than one coherent plotline.

 

I'd make the case for the Alpha Legion being covered at least as much as the Shattered Legions, if we put aside Corax and Vulkan. They had a novel, a novella, myriad short stories, shared a novel with the Imperial Fists, shared a novella with a Shattered Legions cell, and generally have their fingers in many of the plotlines, including Tallarn, the Raven Guard stuff, the White Scars / Wolves stories, hunting Oll etc.

 

....and this is me realizing that I've had my fill of the Alpha Legion for a couple of years now and hope they don't shoehorn them in even more into the Siege. But we know they will, all the while the Iron Hands got removed from the Heresy in Old Earth, the Raven Guard exited in Corax and the Salamanders are sitting at home apart from minor Legion fragments on Terra and with Guilliman, with Vulkan guarding the webway. Then again, everyone is Alpharius anyway.

[b1soul]

Actually, I think Kyme does OK with the Ultramarines. Nothing spectacular, but better than his other stuff. I thought Fall of Damnos was surprisingly readable. Knights of Macragge is also OK. 

 

I don't think his short stories are necessarily better than his novels. The Core and Dreams of Unity were all quite bad IMO. 

[Tymell]

As for the Shattered Legions, I still don't think their relative representation within the series was disproportionate. They featured in sideplots here and there, but actual content to themselves? Hell, the Iron Hands in particular had an entire novel rolled into Old Earth alongside the Salamanders and a third Perpetual plotline. The Raven Guard had two books total in the entire series, the Iron Hands had one to themselves, Salamanders got three, with the third barely being about them anymore. Shattered Legions in general had one main anthology, but that's for various groups of them, rather than one coherent plotline.

 

It's interesting, I did a thing a while ago where I tried assessing all the legion appearances (plus Knights-Errant) and assigning them numerical values to try to see just who had the most and least coverage.

 

It's not an exact science of course, and some may dispute the values I gave, but for whatever it's worth, ranking the 18 legions (plus Knights-Errant) the Salamanders came out at #6, Iron Hands at #7 and Raven Guard at #15.

[Angel_of_Blood]

i feel like there’s two criteria in this thread:

 

the book was badly written

 

the book didn’t give me what i want

 

For me, Fear to Tread hits both of those. 

[Fedor]

I used to think that after Praetorian, we really needed to get another AL book to get more closure on the Omegon plot, but i've come around to feeling it's an ideal ending for the legion.

 

We're essentially leaving them at a very open point where things could go in all sorts of directions for them as far as what they do next. It's thematically fitting for us not to know what paths they take and blends in well with the tabletop homebrew lore side of things. Alpha players have a lot of flexibility there as things currently sit.

 

cue Omegon lowering the shields....

[Lucerne]

The Alpha Legion had exactly two well written novels that developed their character- Legion and Praetorian. (start of heresy and end of the Heresy) They had one major short story that developed them- Serpent Beneath. Everything else was either badly written, irrelevant, or just...not what they needed.

 

This is somehow still too much for some readers to bear, meaning the writing for AL hasn't been adequate to please anyone- too much for people that don't like them while not giving a cohesive character arc for the Legion or a proper fall from grace. They desperately needed a transitional novel by a good writer between legion and praetorian but as that isn't happening, they need at least one more novel to wrap up their arc and explain just what happens to them from Heresy to post-Heresy.

Edited November 28, 2019 by Ugolino

[Lord_Caerolion]

Yeah, most times the Alpha Legion have been involved in stories, they've been plot devices, rather than actual characters.

[IamAlphariusxx20]

I'm kind of biased, being a big alpha legion fan, but I'd say we definitely need some explanation on why their plan from legion doesn't work out rather than have them just fade away at the critical moment

[bluntblade]

I'm with you on that, but I think that train of thought belongs in the "Best Heresy Stories Never Told" thread, wherever it got to

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Deliverance lost.

 

Took me forever to finish that book. And with some relevance to the above.

[Qkhitai]

Given that the Alpha Legion aren't supposed to be at the siege, it makes sense they'd get a bit more 'screentime' in the earlier years of the Heresy. And despite the whole Cabal, loyalist-not-loyalist shenanigans, I think the Alpha Legion stories were still some of the strongest in the series - Praetorian perhaps being my favourite of the whole series. I'd like to hope that if we get a Scouring mini-series after this, a book about Eskrador might tie up a few loose ends. Although if they go down the whole 'we were secretly loyal the whole time' road, I'll just ignore it, because that was always a dumb idea.

 

My only gripe with the Alpha Legion arc is that it strayed too far from the original fluff about why they rebelled. They were supposed to be the upstart young legion that wanted to prove themselves, who didn't have any crusade glories, and that no one else really liked. They only rebelled because Horus and his legion were essentially their only friends, and the only ones that had any faith in them. There's a tragic tale to be told there, and replacing it with some xenos illuminati conspiracy was kinda lame - especially as it gets left in the dust relatively quickly, leaving the legion a bit out in the cold.

Edited November 29, 2019 by Qkhitai

[Lucerne]

Given that the Alpha Legion aren't supposed to be at the siege, it makes sense they'd get a bit more 'screentime' in the earlier years of the Heresy. And despite the whole Cabal, loyalist-not-loyalist shenanigans, I think the Alpha Legion stories were still some of the strongest in the series - Praetorian perhaps being my favourite of the whole series. I'd like to hope that if we get a Scouring mini-series after this, a book about Eskrador might tie up a few loose ends. Although if they go down the whole 'we were secretly loyal the whole time' road, I'll just ignore it, because that was always a dumb idea.

 

My only gripe with the Alpha Legion arc is that it strayed too far from the original fluff about why they rebelled. They were supposed to be the upstart young legion that wanted to prove themselves, who didn't have any crusade glories, and that no one else really liked. They only rebelled because Horus and his legion were essentially their only friends, and the only ones that had any faith in them. There's a tragic tale to be told there, and replacing it with some xenos illuminati conspiracy was kinda lame - especially as it gets left in the dust relatively quickly, leaving the legion a bit out in the cold.

The xeno conspiracy is fine as a push over the edge- their hubris/insecurity dichotomy led them to play both sides and still plays a huge role in their decision making. Having them be the first "Radicals" that fall into the trap of any such extremist works and fits the core themes, it just has to be...fleshed out.

 

Even in damnation, they should keep some ambiguity.

Edited November 29, 2019 by Ugolino

[Guzzlrr]

Flight of the Eisenstein or the Perturbo book my friend bought me as a gift. a tragic story especially the end stinger. i may be a smidge biased there though

 

 

edit : thats a damned lie actually "A thousand sons " best book Ive ever read i think captivated from start to finish

 

best books.

 

the least favorite was tallarn i wanted more from the POV of the IW and what was happening post Exterminatus but that was my issue not the writers

Edited November 29, 2019 by Guzzlrr

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Meant to be books you HATE dude

[Guzzlrr]

Meant to be books you HATE dude

 

yep noticed that a second too late edited though already lol

 

 

 

[Claws and Effect]

For me it's probably Angels of Caliban.

 

I've been trying to read it for a couple months and can't stick with it.

 

It used to be Deliverance Lost. But then I read Lord of Shadows and came back to it and a lot of the nonsensical parts made more sense. Gav is pretty bad about having his characters make questionable decisions without any explanation as to why they did.

[Indefragable]

I don’t get the hatred for Fear to Tread, though my own opinion on it fluctuates greatly. It’s the only one in the series I’ve read twice (well, read once and listened to once). I can get that Swallow is not some people’s favorite author (everyone has a right to their opinion), and it is paradoxically at once bland and over the top at times, but overall I don’t think it’s terrible. Part of what makes these conversations so interesting.

 

Aside on FtT:

Hidden Content

I guess I kinda feel about Fear to Tread the way classic Trekkies feel about Star Trek: The Motion Picture. It may not be the best, but for a long time it’s all they had and there is something about an ambitious first showing.

 

I was a BA and Sanguinius fan when I was younger from some minor dabblings with the setting, and even before I started playing properly I was kind of curious about them. Reading Horus Rising on a whim as I flew for a trip, when I got to the early bits about Sanguinius I was further intrigued and decided to work my way through the entire series with the anticipated pay off of getting it FtT. When I did finally get there, I enjoyed the experience enough that I flossed over the parts I didn’t like or fell flat to me. Which ties into another point...

 

...Something to think about as well is the different stages of the HH series. I know I banged through about 12-13 of the early ones back to back, so by the time I got to FtT, the quality (or lack thereof, whatever you w at to say) didn’t really stand out one way or the another to me. Only with the hindsight of later “good” ones do I look back and realize how off some of them feel.

 

To the subject at hand, it’s hard me to say I outright hate any of them, partially because I’ve become a bit more kumbaya about things (it’s :cuss -ing hard to write a novel, so effort is always appreciated even if it’s not as good as others), partially b/c there are so many where I liked a lot of story x, but couldn’t stand certain aspects about it, or I though story y was kind of dull overall but that one scene really made up for it, etc... There’s also many where I appreciate enough of what’s in it even that even if I don’t like it, I still give it a net positive.

 

Aside on McNeill:

Hidden Content

I find a lot of McNeill’s stuff falls into this category, where I think he has some great ideas and nails somethings, but the total package is rushed or incomplete or has some boneheaded things that take it down a notch. Vengeful Spirit is Exhibit A in this matter, with the Magnus Primarchs novel as exhibit B.

 

A. One of the coolest BA characters of all time, who puts the long haired tattooed biker Hell’s Angels angle into the Blood Angels....and then ends his thread in the single dumbest way in the history of fiction

 

B. Astartes on a humanitarian rescue mission? Hey that’s neat! Psykers being persecuted like certain events of the 1940’s as part of why Magnus is...well....Magnus? Dark yet intriguing angle! Putting those together in the same story? Ummm.....and then adding unnecessary bolter porn to try to keep the reader interested when in fact it detracts from the very parts that make it interesting? <facepalm>

 

 

In contrast, I skipped a lot of books that simply did not interest me ( Outcast Dead, Nemesis )or I heard so much bad stuff about ( Battle for the Abyss ) that I cant weigh in on them. Does it count as hating if you just refused to read them?

 

Ok, ok...to honor the spirit of this thread, when I look back at the ones I did read, I would have to say:

 

- Fallen Angels

Hidden Content

Of all the ones I read, this is the one that is the most jarring to me. When I think back to what happened in it, it stands out as just different from everything else and completely unnecessary. Everything that happens in the story feels of no import and is frankly better left untold. I can’t help but feel that the Ordinatus stuff Perty ends up with will be used at the Siege more to justify this book’s existence than to have any actual meaning.

 

Descent of Angels has the (however marginal) redeeming quality of being about life on Caliban pre-Imperium. Love it or hate it, it’s got a “thing.”

 

Angels of Caliban has some cool moments and some character development, take it or leave it.

 

Fallen Angels just feels utterly useless to me, which is saying a lot given the schitzophrenic nature of the HH series.

 

 

 

Distant runners-up would be:

 

- Unremembered Empire

Hidden Content

Hate the concept (don’t we all?) but I think Abnett is just too good of a write to make anything useless. That being said, this as close as it gets to being a fail for Abnett in my eyes...but even still there’s just enough redeeming qualities to keep it out of damnation (Guilliman vs Headhunters, for example).

 

- Wolfsbane

Hidden Content

This is decidedly in the territory of “bad ‘cause I don’t like what happens” more than bad due to quality. Haley is good overall IMO, and so given the material I think it’s ok. I’ve stated elsewhere that every time I go grumpily into a Haley book expecting to be disappointed I am surprised about the parts I like and dislike based on my expectations...surely that is the sign of a good writer?

 

...but I just thought this entire story arc was stupid on a lot of levels. That may be controversial, but (you’ll notice the theme here) I found the entire thing unnecessary. Horus vs Russ is the kind of title match even those who don’t want Primarch battles all the time can’t help but tune into. So yea, I get that’s cool...but how it happens, why it happens, and at what point in the arc of the HH it happens just seems so stupid to me.

 

For me, you can kinda do anything you want with a story, but how and why it happens is the important thing...and so to me, what happens in Wolfsbanewould have been better (IMHO) if it’s events took place pre-Vengeful Spirit. If would make a lot more sense to me if Russ, smarting from his realization of the setup of Prospero, goes out on his own hunting down his brother, and then Wolfsbane happens...with the wound being there prior to Horus getting up-daemoned on Molech. A wound that festers despite becoming immortal and is a nagging reminder of his ultimate humanity despite unlimited power...a reminder of the brotherhood that once was and is now forever lost....rather than a head scratching super weapon that just cheapens Horus’s power in my eyes.

[IamAlphariusxx20]

If you don't mind me asking, what did you hate exactly about the premise for unremembered empire? I quite liked it painting guilliman in a deeper way than normal, and thought the curze parts were some of the best in the series

[b1soul]

Fear to Tread was just massively disappointing to me as a BA fan (WS and BA being my fave legions). I went in with high expectations based on a glowing online review (https://shadowhawksshade.wordpress.com/2017/06/21/fear-to-tread-by-james-swallow-book-review/), and I found that I could barely slog through the first 100 pages of the novel. Is the prose absolutely awful? No...but it's bland and uninteresting with the most incredible cartoonish portrayal of Greater Daemons in possibly all of BL.

 

EDIT: *incredibly

[Lord Marshal]

I thought Tallarn: Executioner was great, but I'm bias, because I'll gladly devour any scraps we get of the Imperial Army who have been pretty damn unused. Yes, I'm still bitter on about how Ollanius Pius was handled but that's another topic. Of course if we did get more Imperial Army-centred books, we'd probably get cries of "I don't care about some useless mortals, I want my Primarch duels!"

 

Battle for the Abyss has been mentioned several times, rightfully so. It probably doesn't help that it was the first truly 'bad' book in the series.

 

I unironically enjoyed Damnation of Pythos.