What is your least favorite HH novel?

[m_r_parker]

I tend to give the first 10 books a bit of leeway, the series as a whole was still finding it's feet, and there wasn't the same level of integration between the authors about plot threads and character arcs. Was Furious Abyss bad? Yes, but considering the author was working in somewhat of a vacuum with little to set the tone of the series, I'm willing to dismiss it as a one-off. 

 

My main book of gripe is Vulkan Lives. There's so many things wrong with this book that I actually feel I could write something better, and it's not often I feel like that.

Antagonists - the Death Guard and Word Bearers who have been dispatched to catch the Salamanders are hideously one dimensional, beyond cliche and bordering on joke proportions. There's nothing to them aside "We're evil, muahahaha". Not everyone can do what A-D-B does with antagonists, and there certainly isn't the time in the novel to develop them fully, but this is particularly lazy.

Deus-Ex Machina's - when an author writes themselves into a corner so badly that they have to 'magic' it away, that shows poor planning. Trying to breach the Ruinstorm was always going to be a bold move, especially if it comes across that the storm is so strong that only characters with amazing plot-armour can survive. But to have Magnus appear out of thin air, for no reason other than to be a mechanism to get them through the storm - it's ridiculous. There was nothing preparing the reader for this eventuality, Magnus just appears unbidden and magic's them back to safety.

Belief - the most annoying character in this book for me is someone I can't even remember the name of, because I have tried to blot it from my mind. It's basically the chaplain-esque figure that keeps on shouting "Vulkan Lives!" for no reason. I can understand chaplains in the 30k and 40k universe, trying to keep their battle brothers inspired and their morale up - but this isn't that. He's actually looking at Vulkan's cold dead body and saying "Vulkan Lives" - when clearly he's not. How about something to stir some vengeance or fury in the other legionnaires? What about "In Vulkan's name!" or "For Vulkan!"? You can try and argue that this is about how the spirit and teachings of Vulkan live on within his legionnaires, but once they get home and Vulkan fails to spring back to life immediate it's clear that it's not. This guy goes from complete denial about his Primarch's death, through to "Oh well, I might as well wander off and die now, all is useless.". That's a pretty dramatic 180 for someone who was so convinced about his Primarch being alive that even his Primarch's dead body could dissuade him...

Nocturne - I'm not quite sure why we needed the animals of Nocturne to rise up against the traitors? It's so jarring I was half-expecting Merry and Pippin to appear and proclaim "The Eagles are coming!...". Could we not have a simple Astartes vs Astartes battle, with the defences of Nocturne and Prometheus levelling the field between the loyalists and traitors? 

Perpetual - I'm not against one of the Primarch's being a perpetual, but the activities of the remaining loyalist Primarchs after the Sundering has been one of the longest standing mysteries of the 40k universe. Ok, so having one of these mysteries expended upon is nice (he isn't dead, because he cannot die), but telegraphing the reveal that Vulkan is brought back to life by the title of the novel feels a rookie mistake. How many people picking up Vulkan Lives, and on seeing the title joked "Oh, so Vulkan's alive then?!?!" were actually surprised by Vulkan being alive by the end of the novel? How much more impactful would it have been if the title was something else, and "Vulkan Lives" wasn't shouted throughout the novel?

Edited January 11, 2020 by m_r_parker

[Morovir]

The title of the book you're referring to is actually Deathfire. Vulkan Lives was the novel to precede it, which dealt with Vulkan's imprisonment on the Nightfall and his Perpetual nature.

[m_r_parker]

The title of the book you're referring to is actually Deathfire. Vulkan Lives was the novel to precede it, which dealt with Vulkan's imprisonment on the Nightfall and his Perpetual nature.

 

You see, this is the extent to which I've tried to remove all memory of this from my mind - I'm now confusing it with another novel.

A partial success on my part...

[drooling blood]

Things started going off the rails after about book 15. Sure there was a few duds in there. Mainly the DA books and the other 2.

But the next 15 there was about as many good books as there where duds in the first 15. The same for the next 15 books.

But Kymes the hands down winner. Not just worst novel, but worst series within a series of novels.

Then Thorpe. I dont know if theres other writers that use his name, or whats going on.

Ah McNeill. Really the only bad one of his was Outcast Dead, But i think that suffered more from being in the wrong spot on the list.

Had it been later it might have been better received. But it was the only one ready so out the door it goes.

[Lord_Caerolion]

No, Outcast Dead suffers from getting even basic things about the chronology wrong. How the hell did he have that Russ got sent after the Dropsite Massacre became known?

[byrd9999]

Outcast Dead had a great start, looking at the astropaths, about 85 pages, and then went seriously downhill from there.

 

Forgetting all the chronology shenanigans (which McNeill himself wrote in Thousand Sons, so there should have been no excuses), the rest of the book was mostly a :cussty extended chase scene like in Battle for the Abyss. I did like the Thunder Warriors though.

 

 

I really enjoyed Descent of Angels and Fallen Angels. Maybe this is because I read them 10+ years after they had been released. With the Primarchs being its own series now, DoA and FA seem to fit in much better with BL's general output, but I can imagine the disappointment they would have caused at the time.

[Lord_Caerolion]

If we're including the Primarchs books, I've definitely got to vote for Ferrus Manus. The book was basically nothing but Ferrus hulking out (screwing things up in the process) while the Emperors Children overshadow everything they do, or attempting fancy tactics, which they screw up while the Emperors Children overshadow everything they do.

 

Not to mention the contradictory tantrum Ferrus throws by initially going on about how even the Emperor "doesn't know me", then finishing by deciding that he'll just go back to hulking out, as "his brothers would see who he truly was, and it was exactly what they had all already known".

[Indefragable]

Although it in fact hurts our understanding of Ferrus rather than enlighten us, I would still put his book above Guilliman and Vulkan’s. At least Ferrus’ was at least some fresh subject matter.

[Lord_Caerolion]

It expanded on their "key battle" from their Forge World write-up, and turned what was originally a strategic triumph of the Iron Hands into a monumental cluster-  that they only managed to survive thanks to the EC-Sue character saving them, continuing the overarching theme of the Iron Hands book, "anything you can do, Emperors Children can do better."

 

In the original version, Ferrus Manus takes over the stalled conquest of Gardinaal, and sets about with ruthless efficiency taking apart the defenses of the foe, annihilating the Gardinaal forces of their main world in an expertly-planned offensive. In the novella version,

he tries to be fancy and attack like the Emperors Children to show he's a good candidate for Warmaster, even though the story is set long before the Emperor was planning to move back to Terra, fails in that method, tries a diplomatic approach, falls into the same trap there as the prior attempt by the Ultramarines and Thousand Sons, then throws his "I'm what they've always thought me to be" hissy fit, dumbs his ruthless efficiency down to "everyone charge", falls into another of the exact same traps as the prior assault by the Ultramarines, nearly ending with his entire force being nuked to death, only for EC-Sue to appear out of nowhere and sacrifice himself to save the day, winning the battle for Ferrus.

 

It didn't just hurt our understanding of Ferrus, it completely rewrote the story of his victory at Gardinaal into Ferrus being a short-tempered moron with no tactical skill who blunders into every trap possible, despite knowing that those traps are there because they've been used before. It then ends with the normally stoic and emotionless Iron Hands nearly weeping during the funeral of EC-Sue because he was just so darned awesome that it's so, so tragic that he's dead, with Ferrus admitting that he has no ability to lead Legions other than his own, despite the FW books having specified that Ferrus was often used as an overarching commander during multi-Legion assaults.

 

The only saving grace of the book is that it didn't repeat the usual theme that permeates the other Iron Hands HH books, of "Ferrus doesn't like robo-legionaries, and the Iron Hands are wrong for using so much cybernetics".

[dcye]

The title of the book you're referring to is actually Deathfire. Vulkan Lives was the novel to precede it, which dealt with Vulkan's imprisonment on the Nightfall and his Perpetual nature.

 

[Indefragable]

@Lord_Caerolion

 

My point was that Ferrus’ book was about...well...Ferrus, so even though it was not good at least it wasn’t about Guilliman who has plenty already or Vulkan who has a surprisingly high amount of screen time yet still very little exposition. So if you’re going to read a bad story it might as well be about a fresh subject.

[bluntblade]

I think Ferrus' book should have been entirely outside his perspective. So we're seeing other characters, and perhaps mainly outsiders, reckon with the terrifying ruthlessness and effectiveness of the guy.

 

Bit like how George R. R. Martin never gave a POV to Tywin Lannister and has yet to do so for Doran Martell.

[Lord_Caerolion]

And my point is that the Iron Hands have barely any moments of awesomeness in the Heresy series, so it's tragic to see their one previous story of an amazing victory get rewritten into "angry fool calls others stupid failures, proceeds to stupidly fail in the exact same way they did, only being saved by EC character who is effortlessly better than every other IH character". 

 

It's not really new subject matter, just a story about a Legion that has never been given an opportunity to shine. We shouldn't be happy about a book just because it's about a character who gets very little screen time, especially if it changes his one story of strategic brilliance to match every other Iron Hand HH story of "they're a broken Legion led by a moron and their defining characteristic is both wrong and harmful". EDIT: Before anyone mentions the World Eaters here, the Butchers Nails at least give the World Eaters strength, and are shown to improve their combat power, despite their costs. The Iron Hands, every time their penchant for cybernetics have been a feature in the story, it's only been to discuss how they're destroying the "soul" of the Legionaries and how Ferrus doesn't like it, showing them delving into tech-heresy (Keys of Hel, which we've never been shown in practice so again, no moment of awesome, just hints at serious repercussions), or are weakening them in ways that wouldn't affect a purely flesh-and-blood Marine. End Edit

 

 

Seriously, outside the Shattered Legion stuff, the only Iron Hands stories we have, off the top of my head, are "Fulgrim" (Ferrus hulks out, performs a suicidal charge and gets killed), and the short story against the Eldar (a Thorpe story of "the Iron Hands are idiots for using cybernetics", as the Eldar use psychic trickery to cloud their cybernetics, and the IH only win by "turning off" their robot parts). EDIT: Sorry, forgot Keys of Hel, a story of "The Iron Hands appear, show off their heretek, and don't really actually do anything", from memory.

 

Ferrus' death was supposed to be a tragedy, not only because he was a Primarch, but because he was one of the best strategic minds among them. We have nothing showing that now. If anything, his death at Istvaan only prevented him getting butchered elsewhere because of his tactical stupidity, given how he's written. Every other Primarch has their moment of awesomeness. Ferrus just has blunders.

Edited January 13, 2020 by Lord_Caerolion

[Indefragable]

<snip>

I think we are actually quite on the same page. I consider Ferrus, Vulkan, and Guiliman to be the three absolute worst of the Primarchs novella series, they all are pretty bad (IMHO), but Ferrus is the slightly less terrible than the other two. That's all. I agree with everything you are saying.

 

Moving on as I don't want to derail things further.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Apologies, I do tend to get a bit carried away with it. Haven't gotten around to reading the Vulkan/Guilliman Primarch books, but think I'll give those a miss.

[mc warhammer]

having no desire to see ferrus or his legion seen in any a particular light, i thought the gorgon book was excellent

[Fedor]

I liked Gorgon of Medusa a lot more on a reread and thought it wasn't a bad deconstruction of the IH(first read was a similar reaction to caerolion) and showing of why Ferrus by the time of the Fulgrim novel had no interest in the Warmaster position. It didn't really make Ferrus seem weak either imo (he doesn't actually fail at all when he's deciding to fight a textbook compliance, it's all going as planned until the personal assassination attempt ) it's just it becomes a retread of the Dropsite Massacre/showcase of already established chinks in the armour(which all of the primarchs have) in the COLD MEDUSAN RAGE temper he possesses and mostly keeps on a controlled leash. It's hardly surprising if that bubbled to the surface a few times during the crusade, yet when the only full novel you have of the character in so far is all about the time it became a key part of his downfall it doesn't hit home as much to focus on it again with little to contrast against.

 

 Overall for me as an IH player it just seemed like the wrong story at the wrong time though, and the EC stuff was indeed heavy-handed. It's easy to see why IH fans or those wanting something different from them than stories where they are at their lowest/situations that don't suit their skillset were let down by the book basically taking a forgeworld legendary victory and turning it beat for beat into a foreshadowing of the Dropsite Massacre. I feel it would have been a lot better received as part of a bigger Great Crusade Iron Hands series that had books showcasing their brutal, set-piece approach being very successful to contrast with imo.

 

Haley's Corax took a similar  deconstructing the legion approach, but was more even handed and successful at it imo, though the writing isn't as skillful or distinct. I'm really interested in seeing how Guymer approaches the Lion.

 

On Fallen Angels, that book was an odd one to me. Lee's work in the Darkblade books and to a slightly lesser extent the Nagash trilogy was some of the best prose in BL and he had one of the more distinctive literary voices in the stable at the time. I didn't get much of that flair at all in Fallen Angels, though i enjoyed most of it well enough other than the bizarre and poorly explained Terran Sorcerers inclusion. Lee was someone i thought would then go on to be a semi-regular in the series, handling the DA but that book actually was one of his last BL publications for years was it not?.

[Fedor]

Apologies, I do tend to get a bit carried away with it. Haven't gotten around to reading the Vulkan/Guilliman Primarch books, but think I'll give those a miss.

They are very different than Ferrus. I'd say they read more like Annandale did not have big ideas for the characters and just told a safe, well-written battle story while touching on some interesting bits here and there like Guilliman's disaste of certain methods of war.

 

Guymer on the other hand had a clear overarching feel and ideas he wanted to present. You very much get the idea in his IH work that he feels they should not be depicted in typical relatable protagonist fashion that you might just get away with for legions like the Ultramarines or Salamanders  or glorified. I agree with that, just not entirely with the way he went about it.

[DarkChaplain]

I'm still in favor of Guilliman's novel. It's definitely not groundbreaking, but it does a good job characterizing Roboute's dual nature, being ever torn between idealism and pragmatism. It gives a Guilliman who strives to be effective without compromising his ideals, yet having to inevitably accept that he might not have a choice in the end, and that his lofty goals come at a price to him and his Legion. It's a Roboute Guilliman still chafing over what his Legion had to do at Monarchia, trying to prove to himself that he doesn't have to be a destroyer - and for that, he also needs to find a place for the Destroyers within his Legion.

 

The general plot isn't out of the ordinary and brimming with action, something I'm not too interested in normally, but it's interspersed with enough nudges of character building for Roboute and the Destroyer company that I enjoyed the read a good deal. Annandale's stories generally have strong underlying themes to pay attention to, even in what could be considered uninspired battle sequences.

On top of that, with Lord of Ultramar, Annandale also laid the groundwork for further appearances of the Destroyers introduced, and the novel echoes in the pre-Siege novella he wrote for Novella Series 1 - which was pretty great.

[Fedor]

Yeah i remember the Destroyers stuff and the Guilliman character work that was there being quite interesting. It's probably worth a reread at some point soon.

[Indefragable]

I could write a tome on how much I despised the Guilliman one, but I won't go down that road again. Just leave it at:

 

"He struck [his sword] with the force of reason."

 

Actual line from the book. What the ?

Edited January 14, 2020 by Indefragable

[Lord_Caerolion]

I liked Gorgon of Medusa a lot more on a reread and thought it wasn't a bad deconstruction of the IH(first read was a similar reaction to caerolion) and showing of why Ferrus by the time of the Fulgrim novel had no interest in the Warmaster position. It didn't really make Ferrus seem weak either imo (he doesn't actually fail at all when he's deciding to fight a textbook compliance, it's all going as planned until the personal assassination attempt ) it's just it becomes a retread of the Dropsite Massacre/showcase of already established chinks in the armour(which all of the primarchs have) in the COLD MEDUSAN RAGE temper he possesses and mostly keeps on a controlled leash. It's hardly surprising if that bubbled to the surface a few times during the crusade, yet when the only full novel you have of the character in so far is all about the time it became a key part of his downfall it doesn't hit home as much to focus on it again with little to contrast against.

 

 Overall for me as an IH player it just seemed like the wrong story at the wrong time though, and the EC stuff was indeed heavy-handed. It's easy to see why IH fans or those wanting something different from them than stories where they are at their lowest/situations that don't suit their skillset were let down by the book basically taking a forgeworld legendary victory and turning it beat for beat into a foreshadowing of the Dropsite Massacre. I feel it would have been a lot better received as part of a bigger Great Crusade Iron Hands series that had books showcasing their brutal, set-piece approach being very successful to contrast with imo.

 

Haley's Corax took a similar  deconstructing the legion approach, but was more even handed and successful at it imo, though the writing isn't as skillful or distinct. I'm really interested in seeing how Guymer approaches the Lion.

 

On Fallen Angels, that book was an odd one to me. Lee's work in the Darkblade books and to a slightly lesser extent the Nagash trilogy was some of the best prose in BL and he had one of the more distinctive literary voices in the stable at the time. I didn't get much of that flair at all in Fallen Angels, though i enjoyed most of it well enough other than the bizarre and poorly explained Terran Sorcerers inclusion. Lee was someone i thought would then go on to be a semi-regular in the series, handling the DA but that book actually was one of his last BL publications for years was it not?.

 

The failures I was referring to were not taking any precautions against psykers during the negotiations despite criticizing the Ultramarines for falling for the same trick, then doing a "screw it, charge" final assault only to risk nuclear annihilation, despite the Ultramarines/Thousand Sons ground assault actually getting destroyed by them. "Who would have known the guys who previously used psykers to mess with negotiations would use psykers to mess with me during negotiations? Wait, our blind assault is being targeted by WMD's? How could I, tactical and strategic Primarch genius that I am, have foreseen them using the same tactic they used against our previous major assault a second time?"

[Dumah]

I could write a tome on how much I despised the Guilliman one, but I won't go down that road again. Just leave it at:

 

"He struck [his sword] with the force of reason."

 

Actual line from the book. What the ?

Hey man, reason is powerful.

[Lord_Caerolion]

But on its own, is beaten by insanity. Q.E.D., Curze is stronger than Guilliman.

[b1soul]

Lion is stronger than Curze