What is your least favorite HH novel?

[The_son_of_Dorn]

In the grim Darkness of the future there is only,

 

"My Primarch is stronger than your Primarch"

[Fedor]

 

I liked Gorgon of Medusa a lot more on a reread and thought it wasn't a bad deconstruction of the IH(first read was a similar reaction to caerolion) and showing of why Ferrus by the time of the Fulgrim novel had no interest in the Warmaster position. It didn't really make Ferrus seem weak either imo (he doesn't actually fail at all when he's deciding to fight a textbook compliance, it's all going as planned until the personal assassination attempt ) it's just it becomes a retread of the Dropsite Massacre/showcase of already established chinks in the armour(which all of the primarchs have) in the COLD MEDUSAN RAGE temper he possesses and mostly keeps on a controlled leash. It's hardly surprising if that bubbled to the surface a few times during the crusade, yet when the only full novel you have of the character in so far is all about the time it became a key part of his downfall it doesn't hit home as much to focus on it again with little to contrast against.

 

 Overall for me as an IH player it just seemed like the wrong story at the wrong time though, and the EC stuff was indeed heavy-handed. It's easy to see why IH fans or those wanting something different from them than stories where they are at their lowest/situations that don't suit their skillset were let down by the book basically taking a forgeworld legendary victory and turning it beat for beat into a foreshadowing of the Dropsite Massacre. I feel it would have been a lot better received as part of a bigger Great Crusade Iron Hands series that had books showcasing their brutal, set-piece approach being very successful to contrast with imo.

 

Haley's Corax took a similar  deconstructing the legion approach, but was more even handed and successful at it imo, though the writing isn't as skillful or distinct. I'm really interested in seeing how Guymer approaches the Lion.

 

On Fallen Angels, that book was an odd one to me. Lee's work in the Darkblade books and to a slightly lesser extent the Nagash trilogy was some of the best prose in BL and he had one of the more distinctive literary voices in the stable at the time. I didn't get much of that flair at all in Fallen Angels, though i enjoyed most of it well enough other than the bizarre and poorly explained Terran Sorcerers inclusion. Lee was someone i thought would then go on to be a semi-regular in the series, handling the DA but that book actually was one of his last BL publications for years was it not?.

 

The failures I was referring to were not taking any precautions against psykers during the negotiations despite criticizing the Ultramarines for falling for the same trick, then doing a "screw it, charge" final assault only to risk nuclear annihilation, despite the Ultramarines/Thousand Sons ground assault actually getting destroyed by them. "Who would have known the guys who previously used psykers to mess with negotiations would use psykers to mess with me during negotiations? Wait, our blind assault is being targeted by WMD's? How could I, tactical and strategic Primarch genius that I am, have foreseen them using the same tactic they used against our previous major assault a second time?"

 

 

I don't disagree with those observations, That's what i mean when i say it then became a retread of the Dropsite/already well known character flaws. Guymer obviously  wanted to hammer home the point that the character is following a dark ideological path compared to someone like Guilliman( like Curze, in his own way he's committed entirely to being a weapon of war for the Emperor) and that by the time of Gardinaal this has lead Manus to become complacent and overconfident in his success and frustrated at no one  being able to really push him in combat(with subtle allusion this includes a few of the other primarchs)...he's shown as quite self-aware though and mostly recognises his issues in the last part where he's talking to Fulgrim and thinking about Guilliman. I'm guessing Guymer wanted to link things up to the more laid back, wiser and content Ferrus we see initially in Fulgrim, before the personal betrayal brings the COLD MEDUSAN RAGE back to being a problem again.

 

It's a clever enough book in its own way and i'd say if one of the options for how to go about writing an entry in the series was "deconstruct the characters personality flaws and use them to foreshadow the tragedies of the later heresy" it mostly succeeds other than some of the EC ham-fistedness. Some of the other books like Perturabo, Corax and Curze have taken the same route and i think it's an interesting literary choice( especially as there is often so much " power levels" discussion around primarchs where this kind of thing can easily be taken as faction bias/:cussting on a character and unfairly give books a bad rep) i'm just not really sure it was the right one for Ferrus, considering we're not likely to get other dedicated books any time soon.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Ferrus is one if my favourites. His death is like the equivalent of killing of say Iron Man in the first Major Marvel movie for me.

 

Really wanted to see more of him at his absolute best yano. Not become some tortured ill used plot device down the line which even his own legion uphold with breathtaking strangeness.

[MegaVolt87]

In the grim Darkness of the future there is only,

 

"My Primarch is stronger than your Primarch"

 

In the grim Darkness of the internet fandom there is only,

 

"My Space Dad can beat up you're Space Dad."

 

 

Yeah BL did Ferrus dirty in HH. Though I think IH came out better overall than Salamanders though. 

[b1soul]

Let's be honest here...the space dad on space dad action is half the fun of the HH setting

[mc warhammer]

that...could be taken the wrong way

[StrangerOrders]

Let's be honest here...the space dad on space dad action is half the fun of the HH setting

I'd argue its even funnier when its centuries-old demigods go into internal monologues about how awesome and misunderstood their particular Space Dad is and how their Space Dad is actually the bestest Space Dad and all other Marines are just Jelly.

 

Its considerably less funny when folks take those views at face value, but it is pretty funny to read them.

[Kelborn]

*cough* least favorite HH novel *cough*

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Least favourite at the moment is deliverance lost. Boring, bland, overly stereotypical.

 

Just my two cents.

[Roomsky]

While I stick by my previous picks (Vulkan Lives, Deathfire, Battle for the Abyss), I feel there's an argument to be made for any book that made me less appreciative of a faction after I put it down is a qualifier, regardless of any more broad strokes quality. And I don't mean something that intentionally turns a faction into a hate sink, you'll love to hate them if it's well executed, I mean going in excited to learn about a faction and coming out of it finding them lame and uninspired.

 

Following that criteria, any of the following qualify for me:

 

Vulkan Lives / Deathfire / Old Earth

Descent of Angels / Fallen Angels / Angels of Caliban

Deliverance Lost / Corax

Battle for the Abyss

Nemesis / Garro

Vengeful Spirit

 

There are certainly plenty of other sub-par entries, but most of them were neutral enough to not sour my view of the factions presented.

 

And, if that seems a bit sour, I will point out that entries in the Heresy series have made me care far, far more about several factions that I didn't have any interest in before reading, most prominently: Iron Hands, Ultramarines, Space Wolves, Mechanicum, White Scars, Night Lords, and World Eaters.

[Lord_Caerolion]

See, Corax I actually liked, because it helped show that perhaps if Horus had come to Corax in a different way, he could have turned quite easily. He doesn't care about justice, despite his protestations, he cares about vengeance. 

 

Deliverance Lost, however, I wasn't a fan of. Yet another instance of Alpha Legion as plot device.

[1ncarnadine]

While I stick by my previous picks (Vulkan Lives, Deathfire, Battle for the Abyss), I feel there's an argument to be made for any book that made me less appreciative of a faction after I put it down is a qualifier, regardless of any more broad strokes quality. And I don't mean something that intentionally turns a faction into a hate sink, you'll love to hate them if it's well executed, I mean going in excited to learn about a faction and coming out of it finding them lame and uninspired.

 

Following that criteria, any of the following qualify for me:

 

Vulkan Lives / Deathfire / Old Earth

Descent of Angels / Fallen Angels / Angels of Caliban

Deliverance Lost / Corax

Battle for the Abyss

Nemesis / Garro

Vengeful Spirit

 

There are certainly plenty of other sub-par entries, but most of them were neutral enough to not sour my view of the factions presented.

 

And, if that seems a bit sour, I will point out that entries in the Heresy series have made me care far, far more about several factions that I didn't have any interest in before reading, most prominently: Iron Hands, Ultramarines, Space Wolves, Mechanicum, White Scars, Night Lords, and World Eaters.

 

The Buried Dagger is this for me, so much. I don't even care that I absolutely measured that novel based on what I wanted it to be. I can acknowledge that I was too personally invested in a lot of ways. I poured over the old Index Astartes and the HH1: Betrayal Death Guard sections, for too long. I was always fascinated by what really made Mortarion, often portrayed as a liberator despite his methods, as an aspect of nothing but despair. There were so many possible levels to his fall, like the way he took pride in his sons or how his means made his aspect horrific. 

 

Turns out it was a dumb, obvious plot and he was an idiot! Cool. Thanks, Jim. I hate your book. I struggle to prevent that from affecting how much I like the Death Guard, and I still do hold a place in my heart for them, but dang. That was bad. Really bad. At least we have Lords of Silence.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Not just that, but the long, drawn-out suffering of the Death Guard slowly eroding Mortarion's willpower apparently happens in all of 5 minutes. The moment he realizes they're sick, he goes crazy and turns to Nurgle.

[1ncarnadine]

Right, as opposed to using the incredibly mutable time dynamics of the warp. They could easily have been lost for literally centuries of pain, and shown up a week after the Siege started, but nah. As just ONE example of the lost promise of this storyline, the breaking of Mortarion could have been this massive time dilation where he was made to suffer and finally shatter for what could have seemed ages. We're talking about the fall of a primarch, and every other ascension was a massive event fraught with aetheric turmoil.

 

And that's referring to one part of this novel. I could literally rant for paragraphs about this book but I think most of my points stand in the ol' Buried Dagger thread itself. 

Edited January 17, 2020 by LetsYouDown

[mc warhammer]

i really wanted to like buried dagger because of its subject matter but it sounds like what turned me off flight of the eisenstein is still present in this

[1ncarnadine]

I'd invite you to read it and make up your own mind. Many seemed to have enjoyed it a lot. Even quite a few Death Guard fans. I'm no gatekeeper, so if you enjoy it that's alright. But it's my #1 most despised novel of the Heresy bar none, for whatever my opinion's worth. I've never read Fear to Tread either, and probably never will. I didn't like Flight of the Eisenstein or any of the Garro series, either. I may just not like James Swallow's writing, period.

[Gongsun Zan]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who lost enthusiasm for the Death Guard after reading the Buried Dagger, and I'm sort of guy who wants to start buying a new army after every BL book I read. The Death Guard's fall to Nurgle is arguably the most important moment in the Legion's history, and it doesn't even get half a novel.

 

It find it even retroactively makes Path of Heaven worse, because all of the setup in Mortarion's scenes in PoH are completely ignored in the Buried Dagger.

[SkimaskMohawk]

See, Corax I actually liked, because it helped show that perhaps if Horus had come to Corax in a different way, he could have turned quite easily. He doesn't care about justice, despite his protestations, he cares about vengeance.

 

Deliverance Lost, however, I wasn't a fan of. Yet another instance of Alpha Legion as plot device.

I really liked reading lord of shadow and night haunter close together because you really understand how curze is much more interested in justice than corax. Any justice meted out by corax is more symbolic or accidental ("liberating" an oppressed people is just, but not actually implementing justice).

[drooling blood]

No, Outcast Dead suffers from getting even basic things about the chronology wrong. How the hell did he have that Russ got sent after the Dropsite Massacre became known?

 

 

Outcast Dead had a great start, looking at the astropaths, about 85 pages, and then went seriously downhill from there.

 

Forgetting all the chronology shenanigans (which McNeill himself wrote in Thousand Sons, so there should have been no excuses), the rest of the book was mostly a :cussty extended chase scene like in Battle for the Abyss. I did like the Thunder Warriors though.

 

 

I really enjoyed Descent of Angels and Fallen Angels. Maybe this is because I read them 10+ years after they had been released. With the Primarchs being its own series now, DoA and FA seem to fit in much better with BL's general output, but I can imagine the disappointment they would have caused at the time.

 

 

Like i said if it was placed later in the series. It erm might have been better received.

Maybe he was dumping Russ in it. Dont want you wolf baby. Tried getting rid of the the angel, fine ill have to give them Woluves.

 

Blame the warp, or the emp dont know as much about the warp as he pretends to. Or what ever.

[drooling blood]

Im not suprised with those that disliked the dagger.

 

Welcome to being a BA son.

Effin Swallow.

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

No, Outcast Dead suffers from getting even basic things about the chronology wrong. How the hell did he have that Russ got sent after the Dropsite Massacre became known?

 

 

Outcast Dead had a great start, looking at the astropaths, about 85 pages, and then went seriously downhill from there.

 

Forgetting all the chronology shenanigans (which McNeill himself wrote in Thousand Sons, so there should have been no excuses), the rest of the book was mostly a :cussty extended chase scene like in Battle for the Abyss. I did like the Thunder Warriors though.

 

 

I really enjoyed Descent of Angels and Fallen Angels. Maybe this is because I read them 10+ years after they had been released. With the Primarchs being its own series now, DoA and FA seem to fit in much better with BL's general output, but I can imagine the disappointment they would have caused at the time.

 

Like i said if it was placed later in the series. It erm might have been better received.

Maybe he was dumping Russ in it. Dont want you wolf baby. Tried getting rid of the the angel, fine ill have to give them Woluves.

 

Blame the warp, or the emp dont know as much about the warp as he pretends to. Or what ever.

 

 

Except every single other book both before and after shows those events happening in a different order, and in fact depend on them being in a different order. The whole reason Magnus got censured was that he broke the Emperors edict to bring a warning of Horus' betrayal, which at the time was so unthinkable as to "prove" that he had been corrupted, and allowed Russ to be convinced by Horus to destroy the Thousand Sons. That's not just from Russ' perspective, but the Emperor, Terra, basically every single character in the setting. 

 

For it to suddenly have Magnus' message and Russ being sent after the Dropsite Massacre became known about makes no sense. Why send Russ after Magnus because you don't believe his message about Horus' corruption and Magnus obviously being the real traitor, when you not only have proof that Horus is the traitor, but sent 7 Legions to take him out, only for 3 of those Legions to almost get wiped out by the others turning on them too? The response to Magnus in this "revised" situation should have been "yeah, tell us something we don't know, now please come help stop him killing us".

 

It's not a "put it down to Warp shenanigans" thing, but outright contradicts every other piece of fluff we have for absolutely no reason whatsoever. McNeil just had a massive brain-fart while writing it, for some unknown reason. Still not sure how the editors didn't pick up on it.

[DarkChaplain]

Have you, by any chance, read the twist provided by Wolf Hunt? Basically, that whole speculation about how the Wolves had to be sent in retaliation happens nearly two years after the actual transmission was made, it's only that the palace wards held up until the events of The Outcast Dead, resulting in the rest of Terra outside the inner palace being affected much later?

 

The characters talking about the Wolves (which are, like, two people, both times towards ignorant folks) aren't exactly privy to the upper echelon communication either, and one is speculating that "the Emperor has to do this [again] in response" while the other is referring to Russ in the context of how the Thousand Sons are considered traitors, Russ had already gone to visit them, and that's a conversation they had because Nagasena was oblivious to the Sons being counted among Horus' forces, and even the guy explaining isn't clear on whether they are?

In the drama, Malcador reveals that the communication attempt happened two years prior, stunning Severian of the former Crusader Host. As far as I'm aware, in the novel itself, there's no mention made of when exactly the Custodes or Russ had been sent, only that they were gone and that the guardposts were weakened as a result.

 

Frankly, there are a lot of weird bits about The Outcast Dead, and timeline shenanigans are afoot. However, a few of them seem intended (and again, Wolf Hunt was scheduled much earlier than it released; I can only assume the script and recording weren't finalized for a good while due to BL not producing in-house at the time). That might be very much the reason why nobody in the editing department noted it - because they were expecting the direct follow up, which was announced pretty early (and iirc also had Amazon listings at the time of The Outcast Dead's release?) to be a much sooner affair. That'd make it a deliberate twist, not an oversight. That people really slept on the drama when it actually released just made the situation even rougher on everyone, especially with how late it got into print in an anthology.

 

Most importantly, though, the Wolves being sent *at all* is such a minor point in the book, that the Legion or the Primarch get referenced by name, what, a grand total of 3 times? Even if it's irritating, how is it that point that bothers you the most, when there's good and bad stuff in the novel beyond timeline shenanigans? Frankly, I can understand why it'd sour you on the book, but it shouldn't overshadow all the other aspects of it to that degree. There's some genuinely cool stuff in there, even as there is mindboggling power level stuff, or weird pacing issues.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Fair enough. I haven't read it, but don't intend to imply that I rate it as the worst, or anything like that. 

[b1soul]

@ mc warhammer

 

Not when you're Fulgrim

[DarkChaplain]

Fair enough. I haven't read it, but don't intend to imply that I rate it as the worst, or anything like that. 

 

For me, Wolf Hunt has gone a long way towards clearing up that whole thing. It's not the most elegant way to go about it by any means, but even if it wasn't planned like this from the start, at least it makes the effort to acknowledge the issue.

 

It should be included in The Silent War, along with the bulk of the Knights Errant stories; funnily enough, I found more enjoyment in the short stories included, dealing with characters that have a role in The Buried Dagger, than I had with them teaming up in TBD. And TBD also made the grave mistake of killing off one of my favorite cast members early on, before he could really strive for relevance in the novel.

 

Oddly enough, I think The Buried Dagger as a whole has an issue with killing off potential plotlines and characters before they can mature. It ends Mortarion's torture on a whim. It ends Typhus' deception willy nilly. It kills off what may well have been the pilot from Vengeful Spirit without even naming her. Heck, it starts out by having a character suicide, without having him contribute much in the long run, making the ending callback/twist really underwhelming. It mishandles the premise of the sleeper agent, deus ex machinas his origin, and shoehorns the whole Grey Knights matter into the last moment, when really, the book, on the Knights Errant side at least, should have been all about it.

 

Characters' decisions to either accept or reject their role in Malcador's scheme should have been the crux of the KE plotline in the novel. Not some late, never foreshadowed, badly implemented sleeper agent nonsense, but the questions of loyalty that Garro and Loken ask themselves. They needed to be confronted with the medals much earlier than they were, especially considering some had already gotten theirs and adopted new names - to the point of calling others who had not yet by their new labels. The whole question of whether or not it is right to "abandon" the immediate war and plan for a future that might never come or be needed should have been a source of struggle for the protagonists, not handwaved within a page or two at the end. But then, that's also the case for Mortarion's choice, which he struggles with for a whole five minutes.

 

There's so much lackluster content in the novel, so much faux intrigue, that Swallow glossed over the way he developed the characters, including his own. I can't really say that either Garro or Loken are in any sense actually different at the end of it all from when they started. I can, however, say with confidence that Mortarion is drastically different both in general personality and his treatment of Typhon, than when last we saw him. Doesn't help that Typhon/Typhus is also a whole lot less clever than he has been made out to be in the past.

 

That being said, it's not like Swallow doesn't have a history of cutting actually intriguing plotpoints short. Nemesis, for all its pages, snapped the neck of its regular-dude-investigator perspective far too early, turning a story on ground level, on a world set to be visited by Horus himself, into an action flick about weird daemon entities and assassins doing their thing and screwing up repeatedly. I liked one part of the book, I couldn't enjoy the rest nearly as much after that.

If you count Garro: Weapon of Fate as a proper novel too, then I at least liked the parts in that one, but again, he set up a very redundant, pointless framing device that he immediately abandoned. When it closed the book, I had already forgotten it was there to begin with. I really liked the individual stories involved, but the recut just did not flow well, and messed with the pacing.

 

Between The Buried Dagger, the loathsome Fear to Tread (also way overlength, and still didn't manage to craft interesting characters... instead, it turned the most significant Greater Daemons up to that point into laughing stocks), and a couple too many lackluster choices in Nemesis, I'd be hardpressed not to call Swallow the consistently least-enjoyable author in the Heresy series, at least in regards to novels.