Seeking a little help with my lists and overall strategy

[SmiteThemAll]

Hi B&C,

 

I've been slowing painting my black legion army now for a while and have managed to get in a good 15+ games vs varying opponents.

While some games have been close and almost all have been thoroughly enjoyable, I'm not winning. 

I know this can be down to a plethora of reasons, one of which I readily admit is me making mistakes , however , I feel I'm missing a trick in listing building and a general strategy and would love some help from you fine servants of chaos!

 

Let me start with the units I usually field. Almost all may games are 1750/2000 points. I play a variety of missions. Nothing too competitive all though some opponents will inevitably have strong lists.

 

 

HQS

 

2 Sorcerers - Decent but when my hard hitters are killed and there is nothing left to buff they usually don't have much to do.

 

Chain lord with a jump pack - Really love this guy, he's a great disruption unit. I usually make him warlord and give him flames of spite WL trait for the 2 mortal wounds on a roll of a 6. However,  he has died in every game I've played, giving up warlord.

 

Daemon prince with wings- Only really played a couple of games with him as a proxy as I'm still converting him, but he's seems a solid choice tho

 

ELITES

 

6 Terminators with 4-Meltas and 2- Plasmas. I've had terrible luck with these guys and they rarely do anything to warrant their cost. I think its time to shelf them for now. With so few shots they are open to variance screwing me over when I really need them.

 

Decimator engine with soul burner and claw- Fun and can do some serious damage but frail and rarely ,if ever lives past turn 3.

 

2 Squads of chosen, one with meltas and one with plasmas in a rhino.  So mediocre it hurts, should I kit them out differently?

 

TROOPS

 

2x5 Man CSM squads with a heavy in each- its sad how little these guys do in 90% of games. Maybe I should try 5 with no special and keep them cheap? They have occasionally killed something with a lucky HW shot but die easily to any return fire.

 

20 Cultists- Decent cheap fodder. Would be open to buying more despite my hatred of painting them!

 

FAST ATTACK

 

4 Bikes with flamers. Decent but fragile, with the 40k community gearing up to kill primaries marines these guys are sadly too easy to kill. Maybe I should get a larger squad and boost them right into the enemy?

 

HEAVY SUPPORT

 

3 Obliterators with mark of slaneesh. Amazing, they are the best thing in my army, deep strike turn two and pump them full of psychic powers and stratagems and kill stuff. Being the most dangerous unit in my army means they become target priority number one and if they die early, I lose.

 

5 Havocs with auto-cannons - Decent, fairly reliable damage output but as they are my only long range shooting turn one ,my opponent usually takes them out.

 

 

Units on the work table

 

10 Beserkers in a rhino. Really looking forward to fielding these guys. Do I just drive up the table and get into combat ASAP?

 

5 more CSM with a heavy weapon. These have been 70% painted for ages but with their comrades lacklustre performances I've hardly been in a rush to complete them.

 

8 or so Possessed. They seem meh if you don't build an entire force around them. Maybe I should avoid?

 

Dark apostle. Could be good for some -1 to hit on my obits ?

 

Defiler- Worth it ? Seems not

 

 

General tactics and stratagem uses.

 

Turn 1 I try to daisy chain my cultists and move them up to form a meat shield for my army and the incoming obits while taking objectives and hiding units if the opponent has a lot of shooting. Usually take delightful agonies-Prescience for Sorcerers and buff units accordingly.

End of turn 1 shooting phase usually use Endless cacophony on the havocs if they are alive.

 

Turn 2 The oblits come down, preferably behind the cultist wall and near the Sorcerers for buffs, Termies try to kill something with high toughness and lots of wounds (and regularly fail) Lord drops in to either buff shooting or try to assault something. Endless cacophony on my oblits. 

At this point if i haven't killed enough of the enemy I usually take a beating. If my oblits and termies die turn 2 or 3 its hard to effectively kill anything.

 

Usually have 8-9 CPS most of which are spent on Endless cacophony, VoTLW, Let the galaxy burn and re-rolls for psychic tests, damage rolls and charge distances. Occasionally I'll use tide of traitors/Daemon shell/Khorne fight twice for the chain lord.

 

 

So, I feel I'm missing some serious shooting power on the table turn 1. Any suggestions ?

Also, any pointers about list building or game strategy? 

 

Sorry for the wall of text but I've made things a little complicated for myself by building such a hodge-podge of an army list. Aesthetically, I love all the models have but I'd like to add a unit or two to give me a better chance of winning!

 

Much appreciate any help!

Edited November 26, 2019 by SmiteThemAll

[Brom MKIV]

The good news is if your games are close and fun then your doing it right. That also means the power and skill levels of you and your opponents are comparable. If so I would suggest looking to improve your strategy and tactics rather than list building. That said having the right tools available and a list that suites your style are also very important.

 

What I do is evaluate why I won or lost and what I could have done to change the game. I also tend to track performance of units and cp useage. 

When I build lists I go for redundancy and/or 'functional overlap' aka different units that can perform the same or similar roll. Dial this in to try and answer some of the more common units. Anti tank, anti infantry, hordes etc.

As a rule of thumb if your playing shooty chaos you will want more than 1 target for cacophony and prescience. And a way to effect the game state from turn 1. This is typically long ranged shooting of 48" or 36" but on a fast chassis. You'll also want to build to go second. Just off the top of my head. 

 

That said lets take a look at your list:

 

HQs

These look ok, I won't nitpick them except to say the chainlord is probably better off without the WL trait. Keep him cheap disposable and use him to shred screens. He will take your votlw though which is something to consider. DP same purpose since nowdays 'screen' means 2w tanky units as often as not. 

 

Elites

These are all fairly expensive and have low or no impact until at least t2. You can do with some units of this nature but theres too many in your list I feel.

Terminators are probably the best of the bunch here but really just bully units in this edition. Use them to score and pressure the flanks of weak units. You can have some success with all plas/chainaxes + cacophony against someone not prepared to screen them out, but thats very difficult against a good opponent and marines make it harder now. Best builds IMO are all plas or cheap with just 5 models.

Deci's are ok as a one shot assassin for harder targets but much better in multiples. they've been nerfed pretty hard from the early days. I could see you keeping both of these around but the combi weapon chosen are pretty bad and very hard to deliver. I'd lose them or pick up a legion detachment where they might work better.. like alpha legion.

 

Troops

Not much to say here. I'd recommend either 10 or 30 on the cultists although I do fit odd numbers at times myself. The csm theres not much to be done with atm. I was running reaper cc but they didn't pull their weight. Now with F&F I'm gonna try just icon of excess, chainaxe, and 5 chainswords from NL legion. Basic idea is to lurk occupy space and pick on scouts and such. Icon obviously optional.

 

FA

I have no experience with these. I'd suggest min size combi bolters and chainswords. 

 

HS

This is the meat and gravy of the whole list along with HQs. Thats the main problem here brother. You make target priority pretty easy on them and if they can take out your immediate threats you lose. Also thers only a single ranged threat from t1 and no protection for it. DS oblits are dangerous if they land close enough but the delay and the random factors can hurt. Now with F&F again AL or IW can make them untargetable so this would be perfect for your force. 

 

Anyway my suggestions would be to complete those csm but take the heavy weapons and combine to make a second havoc unit. I'd give them las. Theres almost nothing in csm for 170 that can do what 8 las shots can with prescience and votlw active. THIS is your turn 1 cacophony target I mentioned.

 

If you go second put both havoc units into the (former chosen) rhino out of sight near to terrain preferably a ruin. They will almost certainly survive to climb into the ruin and start hosing . 

 

The other rhino can haul those zerks. These are an elite threat worth their salt. Fairly cheap for their damage output and scary enough to make people shoot a rhino. In this case I'd suggest 2x5 with all chainaxes and chainswords. The S10 fist can be good but then your into a single unit that suffers morale and wants an icon due to investment so the cost goes up about 18 pts. I usually reserve this build for when I run at least 3 units of zerks and I make this unit 8 strong. 

 

Lastly I've had decent results from multiple defilers as dread saturation. Its the ridiculous model which really hurts its performance IMO. I think you'd be better served with a lord discordant but if you have it try it. Stock build swapping HF for scourge is my suggestion.

 

Also how are you typically losing those games- scoring, outranged, tabled etc?

Edited November 26, 2019 by Brom MKIV

[MegaVolt87]

You have a smattering of everything, CSM need to specialize/go all in on certain aspects. It seems you are trying to make a balanced all comers list. CSM just can't seem to do all comers lists these days. You need a focus- melee, gunline, mechanized, demon engines etc. That way you can at least make opponents work hard for their win, maybe be an upset by being more skilled with your specialized list. 

[techsoldaten]

Hi B&C,

 

I've been slowing painting my black legion army now for a while and have managed to get in a good 15+ games vs varying opponents.

While some games have been close and almost all have been thoroughly enjoyable, I'm not winning. 

I know this can be down to a plethora of reasons, one of which I readily admit is me making mistakes , however , I feel I'm missing a trick in listing building and a general strategy and would love some help from you fine servants of chaos!

 

Long time Black Legion player here. Happy to offer some thoughts.

 

CSMs, in general, are having a hard time right now. NuMarines, Orks, Dark Eldar, Imperial Guard, and Imperial Knights are favored in the current meta. Be patient and treat this as a learning period, the meta will shift back our way.

 

Second, there's a lot here to work with.

 

CSMs have traditionally been a mid-range army. I'm finding that's not so true anymore, it's pretty hard to march up the board and win.

 

In another thread, I put together a reference  explaining my current outlook on what units to take in a CSM army. This was written with regards to fighting NuMarines, but the same principles apply to most other factions. Might be worth it to take a look.

 

In general, the most effective units have some combination of the following characteristics:

 

- Have a high toughness

- Are psykers and can do mortal wounds (through smite or other means)

- Can fire more than 36"

- Can move 12"+

- Are capable of indirect fire

 

At the same time, units that fit the list require some finesse. It's balancing act, you can't just pick heavy hitters and expect to make it through a game.

 

Given the models you have, building around the Chainlord, DP, Sorcerers, Havocs, and Defiler makes some sense. If you add in the another HS choice, that's enough for a Supreme Command Detachment and a Vanguard detachment.

 

From there, you need to think about the style of game you want to play.

 

If you're going to footslog, do it fast. Cultists are bad screens for DPs and CLs because of the movement. You might be better off with a Biker unit that can stay out in front of your HQs.

 

If you're going to deep strike, maybe you think about bringing those Terminators and Oblits. I don't really like the idea because of how much they cost. Like you said, Obliterators tend to drop in, blow something up and die.

 

But the best thing you can do is have many varied units in your list.

Edited November 27, 2019 by techsoldaten

[SmiteThemAll]

Wow, blown away by the super helpful and detailed replies from you guys.

I definitely need to play better as well as having a more coherent game plan.

 

I typed a big reply responding to you individually and my computer crashed as I was near finished.

 

I think I've got a good idea of how to change my list based upon your collective advice which I would summarise as follows.

 

• Get more credible shooting threats to a) Kill more and b) have more threat saturation. No more easy decisions for my opponents !

 

Megavolt87- I love the Las Havocs in a rhino idea. I think I will field 2x5 and pop them in a rhino for some guaranteed first turn firepower even if I go second.

 

• Get some fast moving threats with fast moving screens ! 

 

techsoldaten- I like the idea of a fast moving screen, almost how spawn used to be in 7th. I'd like to try 9 Bikes w/MoS. If I can cast warptime and delightful agonies on them and zoom them up ahead of the vanguard they are a must kill unit that can soak some shots and if left alone, put out a ridiculous amount of shots.

 

As well as the bikers I have the DP the Chainlord and two rhinos full of threats (2x5 Havocs and 9 Beserkers) for moving over 12"

 

 

 

Hows this for a 1750 list?

 

 

Battalion 

 

Daemon Prince with wings (Warlord- Intoxicating El.) Warptime. MoS

Chain Lord with JP and MoK

 

9 Beserkers with chain axes and chain swords. IoV

Rhino

 

10 Cultists

10 Cultists 

5 CSM with a missile launcher 

 

9 Bikers with 2xFlamers and a combi-flamer. Chain swords. MoS

 

Spearhead 

 

​Sorcerer. Delightful agonies/Prescience. Mos

 

3 Oblits with MoS

5 Havocs with 4x Lascannons. MoS

5 Havocs with 4x Autocannons, MoS

Rhino

 

 

Both havocs in the Rhino. Troops try to hide/hold obj.  DP, chainlord and Zerks in the rhino head for the enemy with the buffed bikes screening. Oblits drop in turn 2 and nuke something and with my increased threat saturation hopefully they survive.

 

 

What you guys think? I can't think of a way to fit in some in-direct fire and I've not got a whole lot of high toughness models.

 

Would a shooty knight be a good addition?

 

I am open to buying a few new models here and there to augment my force as long as I like the look of them.

 

Thanks again for the support guys, really appreciated.

 

 

 

[Brom MKIV]

I think that was actually me lol but ya it looks better considering you got 250 left. Not sure I like the bikes but maybe they'll do OK for ya. Theres just enough for a whirlwind Scorpius and some tidbits like tda for the sorc or a pair of contemptors if you squeeze it. If so get a lord discordant to saturate.

[techsoldaten]

I think that was actually me lol but ya it looks better considering you got 250 left. Not sure I like the bikes but maybe they'll do OK for ya. Theres just enough for a whirlwind Scorpius and some tidbits like tda for the sorc or a pair of contemptors if you squeeze it. If so get a lord discordant to saturate.

 

The bikes are okay. I can think of worse options.

 

A Scorpius would help this list, but I don't believe the OP owns one.

 

If we are picking additional models - Warp Talons to screen the Chainlord and eat overwatch. That's an instant improvement.

[Verbal Underbelly]

Your list is a big improvement. I think nine bikes is a good unit. They're tough and larger units gain more from psychic powers and stratagems. They also benefit from bolter drill so don't forget that. It's a shame they only have flamers but it is what it is.

 

Your havocs are a strong unit as well. Plenty of threats. If you have the points 10 CSM with 8 bolters and 2 missile launchers for backfield defence would be good.

[Verbal Underbelly]

Your list is a big improvement. I think nine bikes is a good unit. They're tough and larger units gain more from psychic powers and stratagems. They also benefit from bolter drill so don't forget that. It's a shame they only have flamers but it is what it is.

 

Your havocs are a strong unit as well. Plenty of threats. If you have the points 10 CSM with 8 bolters and 2 missile launchers for backfield defence would be good.

[SmiteThemAll]

I think that was actually me lol but ya it looks better considering you got 250 left. Not sure I like the bikes but maybe they'll do OK for ya. Theres just enough for a whirlwind Scorpius and some tidbits like tda for the sorc or a pair of contemptors if you squeeze it. If so get a lord discordant to saturate.

 

 

Damnit!! Sorry for mis-crediting your idea!  It was late and I had already lost a long reply to the warp. The scorpius seems INSANE. Shooting twice while stationary is awesome. They are pricey however! Hrrm not sure I like the model enough but I'll have a think.

Out of curiosity, why Termie armour for the sorc? If I deep strike him in I'm losing a turn of delightful agonies.

 

 

I think that was actually me lol but ya it looks better considering you got 250 left. Not sure I like the bikes but maybe they'll do OK for ya. Theres just enough for a whirlwind Scorpius and some tidbits like tda for the sorc or a pair of contemptors if you squeeze it. If so get a lord discordant to saturate.

 

The bikes are okay. I can think of worse options.

 

A Scorpius would help this list, but I don't believe the OP owns one.

 

If we are picking additional models - Warp Talons to screen the Chainlord and eat overwatch. That's an instant improvement.

 

 

Interesting thought with the Warp talons. Is the idea to DS them in? If so ,I have to warn you, I rarely make 9" charges :D

 

Your list is a big improvement. I think nine bikes is a good unit. They're tough and larger units gain more from psychic powers and stratagems. They also benefit from bolter drill so don't forget that. It's a shame they only have flamers but it is what it is.

 

Your havocs are a strong unit as well. Plenty of threats. If you have the points 10 CSM with 8 bolters and 2 missile launchers for backfield defence would be good.

 

Thanks for the advice, I actually have the models to field a 10 man CSM squad with missiles

[Brom MKIV]

No problemo. 

 

Note that I'm speaking from the viewpoint of faith and fury (can't help it) so consider that. If you haven't seen the rules they're all over the web. 

 

Anyway terminator armour is for durability.

 

Scorpius is pure gold. 2 is better vs primaris.

Speaking of.. I took new chaos for a spin last night. Warp talons dropped in used raptor strike to pull a 13" charge (yes declared within 12" though) to assault a screening csm unit, scorpius, deredeo, las havocs and chaos lord. Killed the scorpius (wounded with plas terminators before charging) then piled in and popped 'we have come for you' pinning everyone. Game winning move that will be pretty often.

 

Army was built around alpha legion oblits and they were insane. Took down a kytan 2 blood slaughterers and random units that came within 24". Started on the board slogging with screens and rhinos to protect. Used up 7 cp but by then they'd shot 72 times and dominated the game. Beautiful deathstar unit. 

Edited November 29, 2019 by Brom MKIV