Most selfless Primarch?

[TorvaldTheMild]

There can be a solid argument for pretty much any of the primarchs to be fair. I just listen to a passage where Horus catches Sanguinius killing one of his own sons that fell to the Red Thirst. Horus explained to Sanguinius that they are just human, they have flaws and they are no different than the humans they were designed to protect. I am sure every primarch has had their moments. It is what really brings them to life and makes them all more than just the killing machines that the Emperor wanted them to be.

 

An argument you could make for even Magnus. I'm sure he knew what would happen when he used his powers to try and warn the Emperor of the coming betrayal. He sacrificed his entire legion and himself to try and protect the Imperium. Granted I don't know everything about his fall, just that he fell after trying to warn the Emperor.

 

Now if we were to say that it is the most selfless to up to the current timeline... I would most likely say Guilliman. Look at this poor dude. He awoke to find everything in tatters, a father that views him as a tool of war, and still put himself in a position to carry on the mission he was designed for. As far as I'm aware he has not complained out loud about this position at all. Though I wonder if that will change if one of his trusted brothers returns. I dunno.

 

I love Sanguinius as well. The Blood Angels have quickly become one of my favorite chapters even if I'm disappointed in their rules in game. I just think that sacrificing himself so they could win a battle, not the war, was a really bad call on his part. It almost feels like the easy way out. Sanguinius thought that the Emperor would not be able to kill Horus without his sacrifice. But that could have been visions that the Chaos Gods were feeding him. 

 

Yeah... I'll be going with Guilliman. The dude just impresses me. Everything I've read about him has only helped to build up Guilliman and tear down this strange anti-ultramarine bais I've had for so many years. You could almost see the stress he was going through at the end of Devastation of Baal when he was talking with Dante. The pain he must have been suffering and the doubt he had to push through to continue to act in the best way possible for the Imperium. Having encountered two of his brothers in the past and now knowing that he was very out-numbered. Dude is a boss.

I don't think Cruze could be considered anything but selfish ;)

[Ciler]

I don't think Cruze could be considered anything but selfish

I don't know... He didn't kill for fun, did he. Sure he had a radical sense of justice and he certainly enjoyed what he did as the night haunter, but he was from his own point of view helping the nostroman society.

[TorvaldTheMild]

 

I don't think Cruze could be considered anything but selfish

I don't know... He didn't kill for fun, did he. Sure he had a radical sense of justice and he certainly enjoyed what he did as the night haunter, but he was from his own point of view helping the nostroman society.

 

Yeah but he tortured people for no reason after Istavaan 3 and 5, purely for fun.  That was why he hated himself and his legion and why he was suicidal.  Also he failed helping Nostroman society and when he was asked if he would have done it any other way than torturing people, he said he didn't even think of another way, which is why he felt that he was destined to become a monster especially after he tried to be good.

Edited November 30, 2019 by TorvaldTheMild

[jaxom]

Primarch series spoilers

 

Curze enjoyed torturing people, was well aware of his hypocrisy, and his chose dark futures as his "true fate." Angron started out as an empath, but had it burned out of him by the Butcher's Nails. Most likely, Vulkan is what Angron was supposed to be. Guilliman is selfless like Cato the Elder was: everyone should be living the same selfless life and he has trouble judging people by standards other than his own (this improves over time and is gone as a character trait by 40k).

 

Perturabo, until the Heresy, may have been the most selfless in that he always did what he was told even when he didn't want to or without twisting the orders to fit his personal preferences (like Mortarion did).

[Ciler]

All I'm saying is that it's very opened to discussion and highly dependant on point of view and one's own moral compass. I despise Guilliman because I'm very much like him (a dull bore).

[Guest]

I don't think Sanguinius sacraficed himself for the Emperor. He just found Abaddon first. It wasn't like Sangy and Abaddon would just stand there waiting for Big E to come. Any other loyalist in Sanguinius shoes would have done the same thing and went on the offensive.

 

Russ was willing to give his life to stop Abaddon from reaching Terra.

Vulkan gave his life multiple times, he was willing to bear a doomsday weapon as a last resort.

Dorn I have no doubt would have given his life.

 

They all have their flaws which were selfish. Had Sanguinius been completely selfless he would have shown his flaw to the Emperor and tried to cure his son's or stop it. His selfishness (for lack of better term) caused many mortal their doom and his son's disgrace. Russ is in a similar boat, but less time to ask the Emperor, about the wulfen.

 

So saying one is more selfish than any other is, like most things about Primarch, very dependent on the person. I would say Guilliman little empire is extremely disloyal and selfish, others will disagree. So I don't thing this topic will ever give a single or clear answer.

[TorvaldTheMild]

Primarch series spoilers

 

Curze enjoyed torturing people, was well aware of his hypocrisy, and his chose dark futures as his "true fate." Angron started out as an empath, but had it burned out of him by the Butcher's Nails. Most likely, Vulkan is what Angron was supposed to be. Guilliman is selfless like Cato the Elder was: everyone should be living the same selfless life and he has trouble judging people by standards other than his own (this improves over time and is gone as a character trait by 40k).

 

Perturabo, until the Heresy, may have been the most selfless in that he always did what he was told even when he didn't want to or without twisting the orders to fit his personal preferences (like Mortarion did).

I think Guillimans arrogance makes him selfish, Imperium Secundus and the codex astartes and the new Lord Commander etc.

[TorvaldTheMild]

I don't think Sanguinius sacraficed himself for the Emperor. He just found Abaddon first. It wasn't like Sangy and Abaddon would just stand there waiting for Big E to come. Any other loyalist in Sanguinius shoes would have done the same thing and went on the offensive.

 

Russ was willing to give his life to stop Abaddon from reaching Terra.

Vulkan gave his life multiple times, he was willing to bear a doomsday weapon as a last resort.

Dorn I have no doubt would have given his life.

 

They all have their flaws which were selfish. Had Sanguinius been completely selfless he would have shown his flaw to the Emperor and tried to cure his son's or stop it. His selfishness (for lack of better term) caused many mortal their doom and his son's disgrace. Russ is in a similar boat, but less time to ask the Emperor, about the wulfen.

 

So saying one is more selfish than any other is, like most things about Primarch, very dependent on the person. I would say Guilliman little empire is extremely disloyal and selfish, others will disagree. So I don't thing this topic will ever give a single or clear answer.

No he purposefully sacrificed himself for the Emperor.  It was either Sanguinius sacrificed himself or joined chaos, which is detailed in the Ruinstorm.  He chose to try and save his father and refuse chaos for the Imperiums sake.

[Gederas]

Sanguinius and Vulkan, obviously.

 

Primarch series spoilers

 

Curze enjoyed torturing people, was well aware of his hypocrisy, and his chose dark futures as his "true fate." Angron started out as an empath, but had it burned out of him by the Butcher's Nails. Most likely, Vulkan is what Angron was supposed to be. Guilliman is selfless like Cato the Elder was: everyone should be living the same selfless life and he has trouble judging people by standards other than his own (this improves over time and is gone as a character trait by 40k).

 

Perturabo, until the Heresy, may have been the most selfless in that he always did what he was told even when he didn't want to or without twisting the orders to fit his personal preferences (like Mortarion did).

I think Guillimans arrogance makes him selfish, Imperium Secundus and the codex astartes and the new Lord Commander etc.

And you seem to ignore the fact that he doesn't want any power of rulership. He didn't just make Sanguinus the Emperor of the Imperium Secundus for looks, he did it because he knows that's not his place. He very much dislikes his role as Lord Commander of the Imperium and Imperial Regent because he feels it's counter to what he believes.

 

Remember: Bobby G is a Meritocrat. So the fact that he was given the role of Imperial Regent because he's a Primarch and the Emperor's Son kind of irks him (to put it mildly). He's fine with being Lord Commander of the Imperium, because that's the role he assumed after the Horus Heresy and during the Scouring. Imperial Regent.... As a Meritocrat, he feels he hasn't really EARNED that title.

[TorvaldTheMild]

Sanguinius and Vulkan, obviously.

 

Primarch series spoilers

 

Curze enjoyed torturing people, was well aware of his hypocrisy, and his chose dark futures as his "true fate." Angron started out as an empath, but had it burned out of him by the Butcher's Nails. Most likely, Vulkan is what Angron was supposed to be. Guilliman is selfless like Cato the Elder was: everyone should be living the same selfless life and he has trouble judging people by standards other than his own (this improves over time and is gone as a character trait by 40k).

 

Perturabo, until the Heresy, may have been the most selfless in that he always did what he was told even when he didn't want to or without twisting the orders to fit his personal preferences (like Mortarion did).

I think Guillimans arrogance makes him selfish, Imperium Secundus and the codex astartes and the new Lord Commander etc.

And you seem to ignore the fact that he doesn't want any power of rulership. He didn't just make Sanguinus the Emperor of the Imperium Secundus for looks, he did it because he knows that's not his place. He very much dislikes his role as Lord Commander of the Imperium and Imperial Regent because he feels it's counter to what he believes.

 

Remember: Bobby G is a Meritocrat. So the fact that he was given the role of Imperial Regent because he's a Primarch and the Emperor's Son kind of irks him (to put it mildly). He's fine with being Lord Commander of the Imperium, because that's the role he assumed after the Horus Heresy and during the Scouring. Imperial Regent.... As a Meritocrat, he feels he hasn't really EARNED that title.

No he made Sanguinius regent because it would look self serving to make himself regent he wanted to be regent, he even got mad when Sanguinius started making his own decisions as regent.  Guiliman has always sought power, its the same with his first Lord Commander role which he created for himself, its the same with the codex and its the same with what he's doing now.  He has always wanted power.  He is not meritocrat, otherwise he wouldn't force himself into positions of power.  He is absolutely anything but a meritocrat.  He assume power, yeah he 'took' power.  He would be delusional if he felt he earned that title.  He feels he earned the title because he is so arrogant he thinks he's the only one that could.  The emperor made humans take control of the Imperium, if Guilliman was selfless he would have forgetting his ego and allowed the Emperors vision play out, instead of taking power as he always does.  The Emperor didn't feel the need to end the council of terra in the times of direst need, but Guilliman feels the need to subvert their power all the time.  Guillimans ego is on par with Magnus'.

Edited December 1, 2019 by TorvaldTheMild

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I don't think Sanguinius sacraficed himself for the Emperor. He just found Abaddon first. It wasn't like Sangy and Abaddon would just stand there waiting for Big E to come. Any other loyalist in Sanguinius shoes would have done the same thing and went on the offensive.

Russ was willing to give his life to stop Abaddon from reaching Terra.

Is this an alt version ?

[jaxom]

 

Sanguinius and Vulkan, obviously.

 

Primarch series spoilers

 

Curze enjoyed torturing people, was well aware of his hypocrisy, and his chose dark futures as his "true fate." Angron started out as an empath, but had it burned out of him by the Butcher's Nails. Most likely, Vulkan is what Angron was supposed to be. Guilliman is selfless like Cato the Elder was: everyone should be living the same selfless life and he has trouble judging people by standards other than his own (this improves over time and is gone as a character trait by 40k).

 

Perturabo, until the Heresy, may have been the most selfless in that he always did what he was told even when he didn't want to or without twisting the orders to fit his personal preferences (like Mortarion did).

I think Guillimans arrogance makes him selfish, Imperium Secundus and the codex astartes and the new Lord Commander etc.

And you seem to ignore the fact that he doesn't want any power of rulership. He didn't just make Sanguinus the Emperor of the Imperium Secundus for looks, he did it because he knows that's not his place. He very much dislikes his role as Lord Commander of the Imperium and Imperial Regent because he feels it's counter to what he believes.

 

Remember: Bobby G is a Meritocrat. So the fact that he was given the role of Imperial Regent because he's a Primarch and the Emperor's Son kind of irks him (to put it mildly). He's fine with being Lord Commander of the Imperium, because that's the role he assumed after the Horus Heresy and during the Scouring. Imperial Regent.... As a Meritocrat, he feels he hasn't really EARNED that title.

No he made Sanguinius regent because it would look self serving to make himself regent he wanted to be regent, he even got mad when Sanguinius started making his own decisions as regent.  Guiliman has always sought power, its the same with his first Lord Commander role which he created for himself, its the same with the codex and its the same with what he's doing now.  He has always wanted power.  He is not meritocrat, otherwise he wouldn't force himself into positions of power.  He is absolutely anything but a meritocrat.  He assume power, yeah he 'took' power.  He would be delusional if he felt he earned that title.  He feels he earned the title because he is so arrogant he thinks he's the only one that could.  The emperor made humans take control of the Imperium, if Guilliman was selfless he would have forgetting his ego and allowed the Emperors vision play out, instead of taking power as he always does.  The Emperor didn't feel the need to end the council of terra in the times of direst need, but Guilliman feels the need to subvert their power all the time.  Guillimans ego is on par with Magnus'.

 

 

This is why I compared him to Cato the Elder. Regardless of whether he chose Sanguinius to be Emperor MkII, because he wanted a figurehead or because he felt Sanguinius was the better choice, Guilliman was the one deciding what the criteria for the new roles of Imperator Regis, Lord Warden, and Lord Protector actually were. When I read the books it struck me that Guilliman was expecting the Lion to be a silent, uninvolved figure while Guilliman would debate (i.e. overturn via rhetoric) any decision Sanguinius made that was not to his liking. Instead it ended up more like:

 

Sanguinius: "I declare X."

 

Guilliman: "Surely, you mean Y; which is a better decision because o-"

 

Jonson: "Are you trying to override our brother, who you proclaimed Emperor, master over this realm and all its subjects including us? And who I swore to obey and carry out his dictates just like you did."

 

Guilliman: "... no, of course not...."

[Guest]

 

I don't think Sanguinius sacraficed himself for the Emperor. He just found Abaddon first. It wasn't like Sangy and Abaddon would just stand there waiting for Big E to come. Any other loyalist in Sanguinius shoes would have done the same thing and went on the offensive.

Russ was willing to give his life to stop Abaddon from reaching Terra.

Is this an alt version ?

It's been that way for awhile. Sangy, Emps, Dorn go aboard Horus flagship and got split up. Sangy was the first to find Horus and tries to reason with him unsuccessfully and they fight. Horus slays Sangy and then Emps finds Horus,fights and ends it by psychic blasts his soul away. Dorn then shows up to take Emps mortally wounded and asking to be taken to the golden throne.

[m0nolith]

Sanguinius, he literally died for the Imperium. Even Vulkan didn't do that!

 

.... oh wait, he did.

Like a lot of times 

[jaxom]

I think the confusion was in initially writing Abaddon rather than Horus.

[Archaeinox]

Russ. 

 

and I say that as a TS player

[b1soul]

Vulkan and Sanguinius. The most humane of the primarchs.

[Dumah]

Humane does not necessarily equate to selfless.

[dusara217]

 

 

I don't think Sanguinius sacraficed himself for the Emperor. He just found Abaddon first. It wasn't like Sangy and Abaddon would just stand there waiting for Big E to come. Any other loyalist in Sanguinius shoes would have done the same thing and went on the offensive.

Russ was willing to give his life to stop Abaddon from reaching Terra.

Is this an alt version ?

It's been that way for awhile. Sangy, Emps, Dorn go aboard Horus flagship and got split up. Sangy was the first to find Horus and tries to reason with him unsuccessfully and they fight. Horus slays Sangy and then Emps finds Horus,fights and ends it by psychic blasts his soul away. Dorn then shows up to take Emps mortally wounded and asking to be taken to the golden throne.

 

Sanguinius literally had visions of Horus killing him for years prior to him ever actually entering that flagship. He knew he was going to die on that flagship way before the Siege of Terra, and yet he still didn't tell the Emperor or object in any way to teleporting aboard the Vengeful Spirit. This has nothing to do with chance, the dude literally had visions of the future and those visions showed him his death years, if not decades, prior to him actually dying. Sanguinius didn't just 'happen' upon Horus, he chose to go to his death because he loved his father and the Imperium more than he valued his own life. This is established lore and has been so not only in virtually every BA Codex that I've ever read (think I got started right at the end of 5h Edition) but also shows up again and again in the Horus Heresy novels involving Sanguinius. Hell, even Curze (in his Primarch book) admits to it and calls Sanguinius the good guy version of Curze because Sanguinius received terrible visions and did good with them while Curze received terrible visions and used them to become a monster. 

 

I don't know where you got the idea that it was all luck, but it's been established Blood Angels lore for pretty much as far back as I've read that Sanguinius knew he would be the first to encounter Horus and that he would die because of it.

[TorvaldTheMild]

 

 

 

I don't think Sanguinius sacraficed himself for the Emperor. He just found Abaddon first. It wasn't like Sangy and Abaddon would just stand there waiting for Big E to come. Any other loyalist in Sanguinius shoes would have done the same thing and went on the offensive.

Russ was willing to give his life to stop Abaddon from reaching Terra.

Is this an alt version ?

It's been that way for awhile. Sangy, Emps, Dorn go aboard Horus flagship and got split up. Sangy was the first to find Horus and tries to reason with him unsuccessfully and they fight. Horus slays Sangy and then Emps finds Horus,fights and ends it by psychic blasts his soul away. Dorn then shows up to take Emps mortally wounded and asking to be taken to the golden throne.

 

Sanguinius literally had visions of Horus killing him for years prior to him ever actually entering that flagship. He knew he was going to die on that flagship way before the Siege of Terra, and yet he still didn't tell the Emperor or object in any way to teleporting aboard the Vengeful Spirit. This has nothing to do with chance, the dude literally had visions of the future and those visions showed him his death years, if not decades, prior to him actually dying. Sanguinius didn't just 'happen' upon Horus, he chose to go to his death because he loved his father and the Imperium more than he valued his own life. This is established lore and has been so not only in virtually every BA Codex that I've ever read (think I got started right at the end of 5h Edition) but also shows up again and again in the Horus Heresy novels involving Sanguinius. Hell, even Curze (in his Primarch book) admits to it and calls Sanguinius the good guy version of Curze because Sanguinius received terrible visions and did good with them while Curze received terrible visions and used them to become a monster. 

 

I don't know where you got the idea that it was all luck, but it's been established Blood Angels lore for pretty much as far back as I've read that Sanguinius knew he would be the first to encounter Horus and that he would die because of it.

 

Not true, he never knew where it would be, he only knew that the next time he saw Horus was the time he'd die, so yes he knew he was going to die on the vengeful spirit but before that he never knew where it would be, he just had visions of dying at Horus' hands, he knew every detail of the death other than where it would take place.  For instance when Some of the Night Lords invaded Sotha, he thought it was a distraction and Horus would come to MacCragge and decided to face him there but he didn't end up going there as the Night Lords was just a splinter group and there was no real plan other than getting the Pharos.

Edited December 4, 2019 by TorvaldTheMild

[dusara217]

 

Not true, he never knew where it would be, he only knew that the next time he saw Horus was the time he'd die, so yes he knew he was going to die on the vengeful spirit but before that he never knew where it would be, he just had visions of dying at Horus' hands, he knew every detail of the death other than where it would take place.  For instance when Some of the Night Lords invaded Sotha, he thought it was a distraction and Horus would come to MacCragge and decided to face him there but he didn't end up going there as the Night Lords was just a splinter group and there was no real plan other than getting the Pharos.

 

 

Okay, at this point you're splitting hairs. Sanguinius knew he was going to die on the Vengeful Spirit and chose to go anyway, ergo it was a selfless sacrifice. 

[Aothaine]

 

Sanguinius literally had visions of Horus killing him for years prior to him ever actually entering that flagship. He knew he was going to die on that flagship way before the Siege of Terra, and yet he still didn't tell the Emperor or object in any way to teleporting aboard the Vengeful Spirit. This has nothing to do with chance, the dude literally had visions of the future and those visions showed him his death years, if not decades, prior to him actually dying. Sanguinius didn't just 'happen' upon Horus, he chose to go to his death because he loved his father and the Imperium more than he valued his own life. This is established lore and has been so not only in virtually every BA Codex that I've ever read (think I got started right at the end of 5h Edition) but also shows up again and again in the Horus Heresy novels involving Sanguinius. Hell, even Curze (in his Primarch book) admits to it and calls Sanguinius the good guy version of Curze because Sanguinius received terrible visions and did good with them while Curze received terrible visions and used them to become a monster. 

 

I don't know where you got the idea that it was all luck, but it's been established Blood Angels lore for pretty much as far back as I've read that Sanguinius knew he would be the first to encounter Horus and that he would die because of it.

 

 

Wondering again if those visions were sent by Chaos. Visions are dangerous things in the setting of 40k. Anyway, love this discussion so far. Remember to keep it civil. It is just a friendly debate. 

 

Okay, at this point you're splitting hairs. Sanguinius knew he was going to die on the Vengeful Spirit and chose to go anyway, ergo it was a selfless sacrifice. 

 

 

Keep in mind that the topic is about who is the most selfless. Every primarch has had selfless acts. :D

Edited December 4, 2019 by Aothaine

[TorvaldTheMild]

 

 

Not true, he never knew where it would be, he only knew that the next time he saw Horus was the time he'd die, so yes he knew he was going to die on the vengeful spirit but before that he never knew where it would be, he just had visions of dying at Horus' hands, he knew every detail of the death other than where it would take place.  For instance when Some of the Night Lords invaded Sotha, he thought it was a distraction and Horus would come to MacCragge and decided to face him there but he didn't end up going there as the Night Lords was just a splinter group and there was no real plan other than getting the Pharos.

 

 

Okay, at this point you're splitting hairs. Sanguinius knew he was going to die on the Vengeful Spirit and chose to go anyway, ergo it was a selfless sacrifice. 

 

I agree with you, I'm not splitting hairs.

[Subtleknife]

Horus, he obviously saw what was going to happen. He knew big E needed more power. So he selflessly sacrificed himself to the Chaos gods. Sanguinius saw what would happen and tried to stop Horus helping his father. Luckily, our brave hero slew the cowardly Sanguinius and allowed the Emperor to ascend to Godhood.

[Xenith]

Sanguinius, he literally died for the Imperium. Even Vulkan didn't do that!

 

.... oh wait, he did.

Like a lot of times

Well, Vulkan died many times for Curze's amusement. He didn't really have a choice in the matter.