Chapter Approved 2019 - All the points

[aura_enchanted]

You can use ravenguard librarian to infiltrate the land Raider excelsior full of deathwing knights for a beta strike of deathwing knights into whatever you so desire with a 5" charge (land Raider only needs to be 6" away and the deathwing knights would deploy out of the Raider an inch closer to desired target. You can even keep them hidden until your following turn for "fun and interactive gameplay experiences" (to quote twitch streamers).

 

Turns out raven guard supplements suddenly made deathwing knights incredible monster killers.

 

Back then up with maybe lias issadon and some devestators to clear a trash screen. I don't think shield drones are enough to protect tau war suits anymore everybody.

[Angel of Solitude]

I'm guessing you're using Shadowstep to effectively deepstrike the Excelsior, due to it having the CHARACTER keyword. Then you're loading the Raven Guard transport with Deathwing? I didn't think you could load troops from a different faction into a transport.

 

EDIT: Appears that the Legends entry for the Land Raider Excelsior has had the CHARACTER keyword removed...

Edited December 5, 2019 by Angel of Solitude

[plasmaspam]

Anything on DW Knights? Couldn't see them in your listing.

[Angel of Solitude]

Deathwing Knights are down 2 points to 33 points.

[Chaplain Elijah]

Battle Scribe has been updated with CA2019 :)

[Deadman Wade]

Overall, my 2000 pts list got enough points drop to fit a dreadnought or a couple of Land Speeders. Not much, but still very nice. I think if (when) we get doctrines, DA performance will be on par with anything except the most competitive SM lists.

[Berzul]

Dang.... my lists go down so few points its almost as if there had been no changes! hahahaha!

 

But yeah,. its up. It has some values pending updates, but its most of it there.

[Chaplain Elijah]

Chaplain Venerable Dreadnought full CC = 139pts

 

Oh yes

[Grand Master Springemann]

I am thinking the Land Speeder Vengeance will see some play being it is now 100pts. take three with a dark talon, Sammy in a speeder, Talon Master with two Nephilim Jetfighters in the Ravenwing Attack Squadron for the +1 to hit Strat  

[SnakeChisler]

I am thinking the Land Speeder Vengeance will see some play being it is now 100pts. take three with a dark talon, Sammy in a speeder, Talon Master with two Nephilim Jetfighters in the Ravenwing Attack Squadron for the +1 to hit Strat

 

It's rules are still garbage, D6 and useless to overheat the whole thing needs a rewrite

 

Ex if moves under 1/2 speed gets 2D6 instead of 1 takes 1 mortal wound for overheat per round of firing stratagem to Auto hit guided by speeder like data telemetry

 

Even if it was 80 points it's still a lame duck until they sort out the overheat issue

[SnakeChisler]

The Deathwing Knights thing is annoying there such a good beatstick but with a 5" move and a huge investment in getting them into combat and then only if your lucky in T2 you've got to grind your teeth and just shout why why torture me with such a unit that just doesn't produce.

 

The only reliable delivery method is a land raider and every man and his dog can shoot one off the table in 1 turn arghhhh

 

On a different note drop pods are now T1 Asmodai and a vetran combat unit sounds OK as your storm Shields are 2 points lighting claw gives re-roll to wound and shock assault gives +1 attack

 

Reivers are now 16 and a combat unit gets +1 attack + 1 for Shock assault and Righteous Repugnance gives re roll re roll

 

Our Dreadnought have always been decent due to re-roll 1 if you stand still and my auto cannon / Las cannon Dreads have had another drop

[oldmanlee]

The Deathwing Knights thing is annoying there such a good beatstick but with a 5" move and a huge investment in getting them into combat and then only if your lucky in T2 you've got to grind your teeth and just shout why why torture me with such a unit that just doesn't produce.

The only reliable delivery method is a land raider and every man and his dog can shoot one off the table in 1 turn arghhhh

On a different note drop pods are now T1 Asmodai and a vetran combat unit sounds OK as your storm Shields are 2 points lighting claw gives re-roll to wound and shock assault gives +1 attack

Reivers are now 16 and a combat unit gets +1 attack + 1 for Shock assault and Righteous Repugnance gives re roll re roll

Our Dreadnought have always been decent due to re-roll 1 if you stand still and my auto cannon / Las cannon Dreads have had another drop

 

Tbh untill we get a new codex we as a faction are stuck in mud dropping points on bad units only goes so far. At this point I wish gw would just put terminators out of there misery it's clear they don't want to give them good rules

[Deadman Wade]

Space Marines melee, except some Blood Angels and Space Wolves units, never was a great option, almost everything is either overcosted or not hard-hitting or never gets into combat. So it's not unexpected that DWK still have the same problems SM units had for years. IMO, melee is for fast-moving cheap units with lots of attacks per model, everything else isn't cost-effective, so it's mostly xenos scum that gets decent melee units.

On the other hand, we have enough mobility and firepower with some strong counter-charge options to perform well. Move, fire and move again.

[Berzul]

Well, if you can get your Warlord in there with Master of Maneuver, your chances of a 9" roll on the charge go up to about 48%, as I understand it.

 

Not the most reliable option, but it's the best we have.

 

The thing that bothers me is that my Thunder Hammer Master in Jump Pack, which I just got done for this exact purpose, now went up 21 points.

 

... This thing got EXPENSIVE. Eats up almost all the points I saved by the other changes.

[oldmanlee]

Well, if you can get your Warlord in there with Master of Maneuver, your chances of a 9" roll on the charge go up to about 48%, as I understand it.

Not the most reliable option, but it's the best we have.

The thing that bothers me is that my Thunder Hammer Master in Jump Pack, which I just got done for this exact purpose, now went up 21 points.

... This thing got EXPENSIVE. Eats up almost all the points I saved by the other changes.

Unfortunately that's just a byproduct of smash captains being so good for so long

My issue with terminators is your paying for an expensive power fist that nine times out of ten you won't get to use.im happy with the points drops we got but untill we get some updated rules I think we are still just stuck in mud.hopefully psychic awakening will give us some good rules

Edited December 11, 2019 by oldmanlee

[Chaplain Elijah]

Well, if you can get your Warlord in there with Master of Maneuver, your chances of a 9" roll on the charge go up to about 48%, as I understand it.

 

Not the most reliable option, but it's the best we have.

 

That's why when you deep strike it's best to do it with multiple units/characters instead of a single one : it's the advantage 2 squads of 100pts Vets have over a single 200pts squad of terminators, if you fail a charge roll you still have another to do.

Edited December 11, 2019 by Elijah

[Berzul]

 

 

Well, if you can get your Warlord in there with Master of Maneuver, your chances of a 9" roll on the charge go up to about 48%, as I understand it.

 

Not the most reliable option, but it's the best we have.

That's why when you deep strike it's best to do it with multiple units/characters instead of a single one : it's the advantage 2 squads of 100pts Vets have over a single 200pts squad of terminators, if you fail a charge roll you still have another to do.

True enough... If you have the models T_T

 

I have managed to get the off charge here and there. But, the issue I then find is that powerfists hit horribly for their cost.

 

Knights hit better, and have more resilience, but then again those don't shoot.

 

I mostly use my terminators to clear backfield objectived 9 times out of 10. In that, a barebones squad with Deathwing Assault is as much investment as I will be willing to put into them.

[Grand Master Springemann]

 

I am thinking the Land Speeder Vengeance will see some play being it is now 100pts. take three with a dark talon, Sammy in a speeder, Talon Master with two Nephilim Jetfighters in the Ravenwing Attack Squadron for the +1 to hit Strat

It's rules are still garbage, D6 and useless to overheat the whole thing needs a rewrite

 

Ex if moves under 1/2 speed gets 2D6 instead of 1 takes 1 mortal wound for overheat per round of firing stratagem to Auto hit guided by speeder like data telemetry

 

Even if it was 80 points it's still a lame duck until they sort out the overheat issue

 

 

The +1 to hit strat resolves the issue of overheating. Yes the d6 shots does not help but looking at the fact that it picks up two wound models and with over charging and weapons of the dark age brings it to 4d per shot makes it great against cents and taking out vehicles. I like this better than the black knights which you get what one or two turns before they are dead. plus all three of those will be cheaper to field than a full squad of black knights. 

[SnakeChisler]

Well, if you can get your Warlord in there with Master of Maneuver, your chances of a 9" roll on the charge go up to about 48%, as I understand it.

Not the most reliable option, but it's the best we have.

The thing that bothers me is that my Thunder Hammer Master in Jump Pack, which I just got done for this exact purpose, now went up 21 points.

... This thing got EXPENSIVE. Eats up almost all the points I saved by the other changes.

Mines magnetised, I might do a power fist I like using the mace of redemption coz it looks cool he'll be parking the thunder Hammer for sure 40 points is gross

 

Sam at 140 is a better bet S8 +1 on the charge ( I've seen it played straight 8) 40 point drop.

[Deadman Wade]

I kinda like Vengeance, mainly 'cause it's one more unit to benefit from WFTDA, the way I see it it's more effective than lascannons on average rolls. Sure, not the most cost-effective choise, but with current point decrease, it's ok-ish unit.

40 points thunder hammer though really hurts.

Edited December 11, 2019 by Deadman Wade

[Angel of Solitude]

@Grand Master Springemann I can see what you're suggesting, but for me the limitations of that approach are as follows:

1. You still have to first successfully wound the target unit before you can trigger the strat. For lower toughness units - like the Assault Centurions - then this may be straight forward, but against high toughness units, you might struggle.
2. The stratagem applies to only a single unit. So if you manage to wipe out the unit with one of your three LSV, then the remaining two do not get the benefit of the +1 to Hit for their attacks.
3. If you need to rely on the Dark Talon / Nephilim to score your first wound, then you'll want to keep them in range of the target enemy unit. Then you're into the challenge of maneuvering 3 12" move units, 2 16" move units and 3 min 20" move units in a tight formation
4. You'd have to drop a flyer for it to be a legal detachment, which would leave it at about 1,000pts or so.

It would be interesting to see how it works on the field. I expect it will probably hit really hard, but the lack of flexibility will ultimately leave you looking to spend points elsewhere.

Edited December 11, 2019 by Angel of Solitude

[Grand Master Springemann]

@angel of solitude I understand the limits of the idea. I was thinking of new ideas and am tired of people telling me to use black knights when I do not see them being worth 34 pts. I totally forgot about the two flyer limit which means that is 142pts to go somewhere else. Not all of the units will need to move I having the weapon with 2d base mean it can pick up Primaris Marines per shot. I see CA as a way for less used units to become useful again. 

[Berzul]

 

Well, if you can get your Warlord in there with Master of Maneuver, your chances of a 9" roll on the charge go up to about 48%, as I understand it.

Not the most reliable option, but it's the best we have.

The thing that bothers me is that my Thunder Hammer Master in Jump Pack, which I just got done for this exact purpose, now went up 21 points.

... This thing got EXPENSIVE. Eats up almost all the points I saved by the other changes.

Mines magnetised, I might do a power fist I like using the mace of redemption coz it looks cool he'll be parking the thunder Hammer for sure 40 points is gross

 

Sam at 140 is a better bet S8 +1 on the charge ( I've seen it played straight 8) 40 point drop.

 

Hammers look like Mauls.... I might play mine as a Mace of Redemption, maybe....

[Guest MistaGav]

So how do we feel about the 'character' models now? Just thought I'd give a quick overview of each one and see what people's thoughts are post CA but pre-Doctrines.

Firstborn Ancient - 63pts

Firstborn Champion - 41pts
Firstborn Apothecary - 50pts

 

All cheap as chips and small models so easy to tuck away, no huge loss and good filler for a detachment. The Company champion has the blade of Caliban which is +3str, -3ap D3dmg native which is a nice bonus but now codex SM can take a similar relic and have boosted champions. Would also need a transport or drop pod to get him into CC as quick as possible but you can take multiple so they'd make a nice distraction unit.
 

Primaris Ancient - 69pts

Primaris Champion - N/A
Primaris Apothecary - 60pts

 

You all know the drill now with the primaris upgrade, +1atk and +1 wound. If you have a small amount of points spare then there's no reason not to take them really. No company champion yet but maybe primaris will get theirs soon.
 

Ravenwing Ancient - 69pts

Ravenwing Champion - 70pts
Ravenwing Apothecary - 60pts

 

Second in line, the slightly more expensive but now costed fairly reasonable in comparison actually. Also post legends we are now the only SM faction to get access to these biker type units but you can only have one of each datasheet compared to Primaris and firstborn. All 3 have an extra point of toughness over the others, movement of 14", Turbo boost, Jink, Inner circle and armed with a plasma Talon so decent shooty. The Apothecary and Ancient have a Corvus Hammer while the champion has a Blade of Caliban so same as regular champion. The Apothecary Narthecium affects units in the same way as the others so worth looking at. The Ancients banner gives +1 attack but only to other Ravenwing units so only worth considering if you are running lots of RW units. Shame it doesn't have a similar ability as other ancients as that would pair nicely with either a gunline or Black Knights. The champion overall would make a great upgrade thanks to the bike to get into CC quicker but really could do with more attacks.
 

Deathwing Ancient - 76pts

Deathwing Champion - 90pts
Deathwing Apothecary - 70pts

 

Now for the last lot our terminator units. Other codex and non codex SM units have something similar but ours being Dark Angels have their own little touches. Compared to others character units, these guys have 2+ save, 5+ invul, Inner circle and deepstrike rules which isn't bad but a 5" movement and terminator armour in general isn't great stats wise compared to RW or even gravis now. Like the RW ancient, the Deathwing ancient gives +1 attack to units within 6" but only other Deathwing units. Awesome for DW knights but ok for most other stuff. The ancient can also take a thunderhammer and storm shield but not worth it now thanks to the points increase on characters. The Apothecary is ok if you want a bit tougher and more hardier unit as his Narthecium affects the same as all the others but apart from that I'd stick to the others to save points. The champion is the more unique one armed with the Halberd of Caliban which is a +3str, AP-4, D3dmg weapon that also gives D3 extra attacks in CC if a unit has more than 5 models. Pretty good for horde clearing but probably better for targeting more hardier units. The movement speed will hamper his ability to get into close combat and could do with a few more attacks.

 

Conclusion:
If you are wanting an apothecary then I would say the Ravenwing option is the best option here as points for points it's the same as a primaris but with a few extra goodies on top. The points drop make it a real good choice.
For champions a 'unit' of 3 firstborn champions would be cheap and good to make counter charges but the Ravenwing could perform well if he gets some boosts in the near future.
The ancient really depends on what the rest of your army looks like. If you are running a classic plasma gunline then the primaris is probably the optimal choice due to the extra wound but the special 2 are designed to work in tandem with the rest of similar units. It's no huge loss if you don't take them but it would be a nice boost if you did though.

[Deadman Wade]

Ravenwing apothecary looks like a must-have in Ravenwing, Deathwing and primaris lists. For just 60 points you get a 14" move, double tap plasma gun, T5 W5 medic that can zoom around the battlefield providing support where he's needed the most, he's even able to reach deep-striking units once they've taken some damage. Primaris apothecary is clearly the worst one, with Deathwing isn't much better.

Regular ancient is the most cost-effective choise for gunline, Ravenwing and Deathwing only useful with lots of bikers and terminators respectively. Primaris is just like the space marine equivalent but for 6 extra points.

As for champions, they all, especially footslogging variants, are lackluster IMO. Not enough attacks and defence, so it's hard to justify taking them if for a ~25-30 more points you can get a Master. Ravenwing champion is a little bit better with his mobility, but still he'll have a hard time killing even 4W enemy commanders.

As long as we don't have litanies and doctrines, Ravenwing apothecary is the only one Elite slot character I'd take, with, maybe, regular ancient.

Edited December 11, 2019 by Deadman Wade