Chaos Points Adjustments in CA19

[Prot]

I'm actually really surprised no one has started this topic yet.

 

I think there's some good conversation to be had on bringing some units -back- into the fold with some larger point decreases.

 

First off I want to put some things up I think are key point drops, but if you guys could double check my numbers I'd really appreciate it as I am using my GW Digital Codex (I don't have enhanced version which I assume auto updates with FAQs?) Or doing the math from Battle Scribe when it's possible.

 

So HUGE points drop to:

 

Daemon Prince with Wings: 155 (was 170?) You need the forged sword/axe or whatever but average will be 165 with wargear.

 

Huge adjustment which I actually said would happen to all characters that are hard to hide in this current meta. I actually stopped using one in my Black Legion. Might be time to bring him out but something has to go....

 

Obliterators: 95 (was 115). I absolutely loved this model in every generation, and thought it came in about 15-20 points too expensive. I think this is perfect especially now that we were told 100%  that you can't use your first rolls when performing Cacaphony. (some people played it differently). Love this change and will immediately bring these guys back as a resulting 60 point drop.

 

Terminators: 23 (was 26). Not sure I got this right, but I think Termies are in a super hard spot. This is a nice adjustment but not sure if it will change a lot?

 

Master of Possession: 80 (was 90?) Adding the Force Stave (8) 68 points. If I have this right, then this is a no brainer for me as I love the models but kind of phased them out of lists because of the limited psychic range. 

 

Forgefiend: 80 (was 100). So a pretty considerable drop. I have loved the idea of this model and frankly with BS 4, and movement penalty it was something I could not take to a tournament. The question is did the Hades Autocannon change?

 

Abaddon: 210 (was 240). A staple in all my lists just because Abaddon said so. But always felt (especially since they are adjusting most aura's to match) that he should be cheaper. This is a decent value now.

 

Venom Crawler: 115 (was 130). I knew it had to go down, but wasn't sure where it would land. I may put these back in the lists now.

 

What do you guys think? Anything new that happen that has your interest?

[Marshal Loss]

A full list of changes had been posted in the CSM vs Marines topic, so for completion's sake:

 

Full list of changes:

 

Units:

• DP with Wings 155 (-15)

• Dark Apostle 72 (-28)

• Master of Executions 60 (-10)

• Master of Possession 80 (-10)

• Sorcerer 80 (-10)

• Sorcerer in Terminator Armour 100 (-2)

• Sorcerer with Jump Pack 108 (-4)

• Cultists 4 (-1)

• Chaos Space Marines 11 (-2)

• Chosen 12 (-2)

• Fallen 11 (-3)

• Greater Possessed 60 (-10)

• Khorn Berserkers 15 (-1)

• Noise Marines 13 (-2)

• Possessed 17 (-3)

• Terminators 23 (-3)

• Chaos Spawn 20 (-5)

• Warp Talons 9 (-3)

• Noctilith Crown 80 (-20)

• Chaos Land Raider 180 (-20)

• Chaos Predator 85 (-5)

• Forgefiend 80 (-20)

• Maulerfiend 110 (-10)

• Obliterators 95 (-20)

• Venomcrawler 115 (-15)

• Chaos Rhino 65 (-5)

• Khorn Lord of Skulls 315 (-65)

• Plaguebearers 8 (+1)

• Abaddon 210 (-30)

• Fabius Bile 80 (-10)

• Haarken 92 (-23)

Weapons:

• Balaflamer 20 (-10)

• Blastmaster 12 (-8)

• Daemongore cannon 50 (-21)

• Hades gatling cannon 90 (-94)

• Heldrake claws 0 (-17)

• Ichor cannon 25 (-33)

• Inferno Boltgun 0 (-2)

• Magma cutter 6 (-10)

• Skullhurler 60 (-38)

• Warpflamer 8 (-2)

• Helbrutefist 20/30 (-10/-10)

• Lightning claws 6/10 (-2/-2)

• Power scourge 25 (-10)

• Thunder hammer (character) 40 (+19)

 

Master of Possession points reduction was 10, not 30.

 

It's hard to pick out a "most notable reduction" because we received so many. Virtually all of us are going to have a sizeable chunk more points to spend in our existing lists. Favourites for me include

• Possessed, which seem like a very powerful unit after the F&F changes. Now they just need a new kit....
• Dark Apostle. Brought in line with the loyalist equivalent, the Word Bearers one with the Dark Council stratagem offers so much for the points.
• Obliterators. The 20 point reduction is huge for them.

I would have liked to see Forgefiends go cheaper as they're still pretty bad. Warp Talons are very viable in some Legion lists now. Surprised to see DPs get a reduction because they were already so good, and equally surprised to see Lords Discordant stay the same as I'd assumed GW would raise the price on them in a kneejerk response to their popularity earlier this year.

[Sonoftherubric21]

I really like seeing Haarken at 92? Totally usable in a solid Raptor list. Easy slot-in given some legions (EC and NL especially) have easy to land charges. Haarken funny enough combos REALLY well with the Night Lords due to his massive -1 LD aura bubble (Prey on the Weak on tap for any squad that needs it.... Pretty great IMHO) 

 

Abbadon at 210 is also stellar. Marines at 11 is solid and Chosen at 12? NICE! 

 

Across the board these point drops are incredibly useful. I think that Terminators in particular are useful for a couple of things, in NL and EC I can see Melee terminators getting use due to those charge bonus strats. 

 

For any other legion? The Chainaxe + Combi is now 130 for a squad of 5. OR Chainaxe + Combi-plasmas out the wazoo. Solid potential for its cost on the drop but only those will be viable. 

 

Obliterators are now all but an auto-include. They have *ludicrous* top damage potential. I have not one-shotted a Knight....but I came VERY close. (21 wounds in a single round WITHOUT using cacophony but admittedly I have had perfect fleshmetal rolls...) now for a well pointed 285? I can't see many lists of chaos hitting the table without them. ESPECIALLY Iron Warriors but this goes for all other chaos lists from the vanilla codex anyway! 

 

I agree totally with the Dark Apostle as well! Will see use in MANY a list as their utility is great. Obviously Word Bearers get more mileage but I don't think ours are slouches now. 

 

I do not agree about Forgefiends however, I think at 128 they are fine. Venomcrawlers at 115 are very well pointed and Maulers at 122 seem good overall to me.

 

I agree with Warp Talons in EC and NL for sure. Even potentially in Word Bearers (though the risk of failure to charge is a huge deal so I think EC and NL will be the big dogs on campus for Warp Talon use) 

 

Overall with Faith/Fury + Chapter Approved I think the Chaos Legions are in a solid spot now. We aren't scrubs anymore in comparison even if the new marine book does have advantages over us, that gap is far narrower then it was. 

[40kChrista]

Small stealth buff to Disco lords with Baleflamers.

 

My Slaanesh demonkin army got about 300 (289 IIRC) points cheaper with all the reductions, it was at 1992 points.  So points off 20 Possessed, 2 Greater Possessed, a winged Prince, 3 Venomcrawlers, and 2 Baleflamer Disco Lords now.  Oh, and a foot Slaanesh Herald too... they're  10 points less now at 50.

 

This will allow me to change my Possessed Vanguard Detachment into a Battalion for more CP, 6 to 10, and possibly add another HQ like a Master of Possession. or keep it as is and add 3 Oblits, or maybe 10 Warp Talons, or... or.. or...

 

Basically my core stays the same and it's going to take a few games to figure out what to add with those 300 extra points.  I'm looking forward to it.

[nanosquid]

After playing with the new supplement a few times I was despairing again hard, but with these points showing up just a week later I breathed a sigh of relief. As an Iron Warriors player who chose them specifically because I love obliterators, seeing that 20 point discount show up in the video reviews darn near made my heart stop. Suddenly, every model in my list (other than havocs) was significantly discounted, and I walked in to the store this weekend and played a 1500 point game... with the 2000 point list I ran last week.

 

I don't think anyone could have predicted just how much they were going to rebalance the whole game pointswise this year. Suddenly the new Marine codex seems less absurd when the rest of us are all bringing a lot more stuff to the table to help deal with it.

[Brom MKIV]

The discussion has been going on in another less appropriate topic. Maybe someone can move posts here?

 

tldr; were back!

[WarriorFish]

The other topic is about tackling the new C:SM stuff, so it is still pertinent there. As this is a pretty significant change it's worth having a separate discussion to focus on the changes themselves however, rather than their implications against SM specifically.

 

I'm still wondering why Raptors didn't get a drop, but otherwise I'm pleased. It's as much as can be hoped for as recognition that changes were needed; I expect I'm in good company eagerly awaiting the Battlescribe list heroes to update the data! It'll be nice to see what more you can fit in of course, but individual changes are what is really exciting. Termies will be stretching their legs on table tops more readily, and my Troop choices can bulk out to have more impact. A lot of the HQ choices look much better now with some points shaved off.

 

It's not just units I have, but units I want too. I've been mulling over a Heldrake for ages but now it seems a more viable addition :)

[Marshal Loss]

I do not agree about Forgefiends however, I think at 128 they are fine.

 

Even with the reduction they simply don't offer enough for the points. When you contrast a Forgefiend with one of the melee oriented daemon engines there's simply no competition. If they had a rule that allowed them to move and fire heavy weapons without penalty or fire twice/get +1 to hit if it didn't move they'd probably be worth taking, but even then the Ectoplasma options are still too unreliable, despite how cool they look. I can see Forgefiends being okay in certain situations (an Iron Warriors list with the Stoic Advance trait perhaps) but as is they still need a boost even at 128 pts.

[Sonoftherubric21]

 

I do not agree about Forgefiends however, I think at 128 they are fine.

 

Even with the reduction simply don't offer enough for the points. When you contrast a Forgefiend with one of the melee oriented daemon engines there's simply no competition. If they had a rule that allowed them to move and fire heavy weapons without penalty or fire twice they'd probably be worth taking, but even then the Ectoplasma options are still too unreliable, despite how cool they look. I can see Forgefiends being okay in certain situations (an Iron Warriors list with the Stoic Advance trait perhaps) but as is they still need a boost.

 

 

Oh I should clarify one thing: My Forgefiend has Normal jaws + the duel hades cannons. i never take them with Ectoplasma.  Though I totally agree Irons do it best for sure and it has its limitations. 

 

My forgefiend generally has done some good work on the table so I can't really fault it. Its str 8 and D2 is very solid against most targets in my meta (especially with this ludicrous influx of multi-wound marines). 

 

YMMV of course. 

[Cheex]

Heldrakes got a surprising drop of 27pts thanks to their weapons being cheaper. They still have pretty poor damage output, but at 140pts they might be a useful distraction carnifex, and might be good for clearing (or at least distracting) screens.

 

Terminators at 23pts are potentially viable as well. Red Butchers most certainly are.

 

Cultist blobs with a Dark Apostle babysitter seem like fun, since they all dropped significantly in points. 

 

But Warp Talons are gaining a discount on both their base cost AND their weapons. From 24pts each to 19pts? That's a >20% discount right there. I think we're about to see a lot more of these guys on the table soon.

[Marshal Loss]

 

My forgefiend generally has done some good work on the table so I can't really fault it. Its str 8 and D2 is very solid against most targets in my meta (especially with this ludicrous influx of multi-wound marines). 

 

YMMV of course.

While I don't doubt they (or anything) can perform adequately in an environment that isn't at all competitive, that doesn't mean they don't drastically underperform when looked at outside of a vacuum. Even if you're looking to spam S8 D2 shots against Primaris there are numerous superior choices. They need a niche that this points reduction doesn't yet give them.

[Sonoftherubric21]

 

 

My forgefiend generally has done some good work on the table so I can't really fault it. Its str 8 and D2 is very solid against most targets in my meta (especially with this ludicrous influx of multi-wound marines). 

 

YMMV of course.

While I don't doubt they (or anything) can perform adequately in an environment that isn't at all competitive, that doesn't mean they don't drastically underperform when looked at outside of a vacuum. Even if you're looking to spam S8 D2 shots against Primaris there are numerous superior choices. They need a niche that this points reduction doesn't yet give them.

 

 

As I said; YMMV.

 

If the "vacuum" is the meta I experience it becomes the only thing that matters, eh? 

[Marshal Loss]

 

If the "vacuum" is the meta I experience it becomes the only thing that matters, eh?

 

 

No. The "vacuum" refers to whether you are looking at whether a unit can perform adequately without giving thought as to whether there are better choices than that unit in the first place. That a Forgefiend can perform well isn't the point; that it isn't competitive against similar units we have access to is.

 

At the end of the day the points reduction on the Forgefiend doesn't make up for the unit's obvious flaws (BS4 & a penalty to move and fire being the biggest) and it will continue to not see use outside of casual games; it is a testament to the severity of those flaws that even a 20 point reduction doesn't fix it. At least it isn't quite as overpriced as it used to be! YMMV indeed.

 

Anyway, re: the other daemon engines: Maulerfiends were already great, Venomcrawlers I liked, and seeing both get reductions is fantastic in my book. On the fence about Heldrakes. What do people think about the Lord of Skulls? It received a massive reduction, is it worth a look now?

[MegaVolt87]

Oblits seem to be at the right points now for what they do. I just think its a bit too obvious though when we take cultists, IW will use that new strat to DS near them and have the cultists tank the shooting. The chosen, CSM and termi discounts I am very happy with. I think raptors got a points cut last year though I believe. Maybe next year they get a points cut. Now I gotta track down those CSM FW points until I get my CA19... 

[Brom MKIV]

Raptors suffer, if you can call it that, from having icon access. I still think they're ok though, at least as a second warp talons from the same legion.

[Prot]

My last ITC Black Legion tournament list had me feeling a lot of the units were severely over pointed. I think these adjustments give me back between 250 and 300 points.

[Brom MKIV]

I got 264 from mine. Did one last game with the old points now were moving on. Hope battlescribe catches up soon! Props to those boys btw.

[Sonoftherubric21]

My last ITC Black Legion tournament list had me feeling a lot of the units were severely over pointed. I think these adjustments give me back between 250 and 300 points.

 

I added up one list from my BL that gave me back roughly 260. Couldn't believe it. My old 2000 is now an 1850. lol. 

[MegaVolt87]

OK was bored, did an excel from a review vid for the hellforged stuff-

 

land raider achilles -30 points from CA18 (200) new pts

land raider proteus -25 points from CA18 (200) new pts

Hellforged predator -10 points from CA18 (85) new pts

 

Typhon 200 points INCREASE FROM THE FW INDEX (700) new    RIP

 

 

hellforged chain claw (new)30/40 38/48   -(8/8)

hellforged deathclaw (new)20/30 30/40 -(10/10)

siege claw (new)20/30 30/40                  -(10/10)

siege drill (new)30/40 40/50 -(10/10)

 

Nice points drops on mele on our FW dreads. 

 

 

Twin autocannon -10 points from CA18 (20)

 

Still can't compete with butchers though, maybe if you need the 5pt shuffle difference between twin auto and butcher. 

 

No other hellforged changes to report, except that it appears that the complete FW points lists are going in CA19 even if they haven't changed. (probably for all that going forward). 

[Brom MKIV]

 

OK was bored, did an excel from a review vid for the hellforged stuff-

 

land raider achilles -30 points from CA18 (200) new pts

land raider proteus -25 points from CA18 (200) new pts

Hellforged predator -10 points from CA18 (85) new pts

 

Typhon 200 points INCREASE FROM THE FW INDEX (700) new    RIP

 

 

hellforged chain claw (new)30/40 38/48   -(8/8)

hellforged deathclaw (new)20/30 30/40 -(10/10)

siege claw (new)20/30 30/40                  -(10/10)

siege drill (new)30/40 40/50 -(10/10)

 

Nice points drops on mele on our FW dreads. 

 

 

Twin autocannon -10 points from CA18 (20)

 

Still can't compete with butchers though, maybe if you need the 5pt shuffle difference between twin auto and butcher. 

 

No other hellforged changes to report, except that it appears that the complete FW points lists are going in CA19 even if they haven't changed. (probably for all that going forward). 

 

Boom I missed this thanks brother!  I agree on the butchers but I'll run a claw dread farily often anyways. Too iconic but I've also found them very effective if they're not shot down. Anything punchy doesn't like to see 2 contemptors with claws. 

[Scourged]

I'm pleased with the changes. 17 points for Possessed just feels right. That puts them in league with an Intercessor... they lack the ranged damage, but have a bit more survivability, potential for buffing, and better melee damage. I think this is the spot they needed to be in all along. And at this price point, they come in very close to a squad of full-melee Berzerkers (all axes+swords, and a fist). I think it's a good fit. The Khorne Bunnies have all of the raw damage output, but the Daemon Bois are tankier. One is a hammer, the other an anvil. I like it. 

 

Cheaper Obliterators is just so wonderful. Again, 95 is what feels right for the model. 

 

And though it's not a Competitive™ choice, the double-scourge Helbrute dropping 20 points is very nice. 110 points for 11/12 S8 AP-2 D2 attacks is just so nice. I mean, sure, it'll get shot off the board turn one, I know. I've been there. But all of the cc 'brutes ending up cheaper is nice. And if you're crowding the field with other 'brutes and Daemon Engines... it'll be a nasty surprise if ignored. 

 

At this point, CSM Brigades might be a reasonable consideration (with the caveat of, as always, 'depending on your meta'). Our troops are far cheaper en masse. We can fill the FA slot for 60 points with three Spawn because... well, at least for me, I never use that slot. Will it overtake running a double battalion with one of them being Red Corsairs...? Eh, probably not, sadly. But maybe it will. I know it will for me. I'll gladly suffer 1 less CP such that all of the models on the field benefit from the new F&F goodies and a shared Legion. 

 

My last couple of lists (I rarely run the same list twice... in true Alpha Legion style) both saved approx. 175-185 points, so that's a nice chunk of savings right there. I'll gladly enjoy the extra freedom to fit a 10-man Possessed squad "for free" in my lists. Or whatever other unit(s) I feel like including as a bonus. Good times. 

 

The only thing that bugs me is that our DPw/W got cheaper AND the TS/DG versions got more expensive. I feel like one change or the other would have been a good way to go. Both adjustments just seems like an overcorrect. 

[Special Officer Doofy]

The only thing that bugs me is that our DPw/W got cheaper AND the TS/DG versions got more expensive. I feel like one change or the other would have been a good way to go. Both adjustments just seems like an overcorrect.

The DG one got more expensive? I have the book leak image that has the plaguecaster at 95 and the other changes, it has regular at 146pts and wings at 170pts. Talons are still 10pts. Didn't look like it went up.

 

I'm fine with it, as long as the one from the Daemon codex loses its bonus based on it's mark. I know the Daemon codex one gets DR if it takes nurgle mark and the leak said they are going to 155 with wings. Would be kinda b.s. If the DG one costs 15pts more for NO reason (they both get DR). The thousand sons one was always the strongest anyways, having the +1 invuln save and cast two spells from all three disciplines was always the best. Even a tzeentch marked one from Daemon codex does not get a second spell or multiple disciplines.

 

I expect GW to mess it up balance wise like everything else.

 

Edit: grammer

[Closet Skeleton]

DG prince is more powerful than the daemon codex nurgle prince since it has shock hateful assault and grants rerolls to legion units. Mainline chaos codex ones swap the mark bonus for hateful assault and <legion> rerolls and I guess traits (out of which only slaanesh and world eaters matter and give something like the mark bonus).

 

Daemons codex princes still have the best relic options.

[Special Officer Doofy]

DG prince is more powerful than the daemon codex nurgle prince since it has shock hateful assault and grants rerolls to legion units. Mainline chaos codex ones swap the mark bonus for hateful assault and <legion> rerolls and I guess traits (out of which only slaanesh and world eaters matter and give something like the mark bonus).

 

Daemons codex princes still have the best relic options.

Well the deathguard one does not get the legion trait (not that it matters) and the Daemon codex one does get their Loci, Locus of Virulence (if all nurgle) which buffs him and all nurgle daemons around him. Still doesn't seem right.

 

But I rather any chaos get a drop then none. We need the help. I was surprised they got a drop honestly, I run two in my DG list and they are some of my best units.

[TrawlingCleaner]

A full list of changes had been posted in the CSM vs Marines topic, so for completion's sake:

 

Full list of changes:

 

Units:

• DP with Wings 155 (-15)

• Dark Apostle 72 (-28)

• Master of Executions 60 (-10)

• Master of Possession 80 (-10)

• Sorcerer 80 (-10)

• Sorcerer in Terminator Armour 100 (-2)

• Sorcerer with Jump Pack 108 (-4)

• Cultists 4 (-1)

• Chaos Space Marines 11 (-2)

• Chosen 12 (-2)

• Fallen 11 (-3)

• Greater Possessed 60 (-10)

• Khorn Berserkers 15 (-1)

• Noise Marines 13 (-2)

• Possessed 17 (-3)

• Terminators 23 (-3)

• Chaos Spawn 20 (-5)

• Warp Talons 9 (-3)

• Noctilith Crown 80 (-20)

• Chaos Land Raider 180 (-20)

• Chaos Predator 85 (-5)

• Forgefiend 80 (-20)

• Maulerfiend 110 (-10)

• Obliterators 95 (-20)

• Venomcrawler 115 (-15)

• Chaos Rhino 65 (-5)

• Khorn Lord of Skulls 315 (-65)

• Plaguebearers 8 (+1)

• Abaddon 210 (-30)

• Fabius Bile 80 (-10)

• Haarken 92 (-23)

Weapons:

• Balaflamer 20 (-10)

• Blastmaster 12 (-8)

• Daemongore cannon 50 (-21)

• Hades gatling cannon 90 (-94)

• Heldrake claws 0 (-17)

• Ichor cannon 25 (-33)

• Inferno Boltgun 0 (-2)

• Magma cutter 6 (-10)

• Skullhurler 60 (-38)

• Warpflamer 8 (-2)

• Helbrutefist 20/30 (-10/-10)

• Lightning claws 6/10 (-2/-2)

• Power scourge 25 (-10)

• Thunder hammer (character) 40 (+19)

 

Master of Possession points reduction was 10, not 30.

 

It's hard to pick out a "most notable reduction" because we received so many. Virtually all of us are going to have a sizeable chunk more points to spend in our existing lists. Favourites for me include

• Possessed, which seem like a very powerful unit after the F&F changes. Now they just need a new kit....
• Dark Apostle. Brought in line with the loyalist equivalent, the Word Bearers one with the Dark Council stratagem offers so much for the points.
• Obliterators. The 20 point reduction is huge for them.

I would have liked to see Forgefiends go cheaper as they're still pretty bad. Warp Talons are very viable in some Legion lists now. Surprised to see DPs get a reduction because they were already so good, and equally surprised to see Lords Discordant stay the same as I'd assumed GW would raise the price on them in a kneejerk response to their popularity earlier this year.

I'm a little confused on the Hades Cannon front. How did they go down from 184 to 90? Or is this different to the Forgefiend cannon?

 

All in all I'm very pleased with the points drops, a Word Bearers' list I had put together has dropped 200 pts which means I can fit in more monsters