Evaluating my Options for a Monthly Tournament

[Hintzy]

There's a monthly tournament a few cities over that I'd like to try and attend at least a few times before we move again for my wife's schooling.  The two issues preventing me so far have been family scheduling (I watch our little one while my wife studies on weekends) and not having what I feel like is a competitive enough collection to make the travel and time away worthwhile.  The first issue can be overcome with scheduling, and the second can be overcome with help from this community.  

 

While this is mostly a list discussion I opted to post it in the main area because I actually have MOST of the list solidified and I'd primarily like to discuss the merits of a few options I've already identified.  The tournament is a standard ITC style, I know a few of you have quality experience in that environment.  From what I can tell the meta consists of several flavors of vanilla Marines, Imperial Knights, Chaos Knights/Discordants, Eldar, Tau, and a few others.  A good spread I think.

 

The list I've identified is as follows (simplified as best I can):

 

Battalion 1

Smash Captain (Artisan/Visions)

Sanguinary Priest w/JP

3x Knife Scouts

 

Battalion 2

Inquisitor (Terrify)

Librarian w/JP (Warlord/Gift of Foresight/Angel's Wing/Quickening/Unleash Rage)

Librarian Dreadnought (Wings/Quickening)

2x Intercessors

1x Barebones Tactical Squad

Drop Pod

 

Vanguard 1

Lemartes

9x SG (Swords/Axes/Angelus)

15x DC (Fists/Chainswords/Bolters)

SG Ancient (Standard of Sacrifice)

 

After Chapter Approved that leaves me with approximately 270 points spare with plenty of room to fudge in either direction with wargear.

 

To explain the thinking behind the list to this point:  The primary threats are to two big blobs of JP melee.  The DC buffed by Lemartes for re-rollable 7" charges (Canticle of Hate) and full hit rerolls.  The SG would drop with the Librarian and Ancient.  With Quickening/Red Thirst/Angel's Wing the Librarian will have a 5" re-rollable charge to shut off overwatch and provide warlord re-rolls for the SG who will use Descent of Angels to make it in.  The Priest would drop with whoever needs the +1 Strength more.  These two groups can theoretically each kill a Knight with average dice, though I know the dangers of taking that for granted.  The additional power units are obviously the Smash Captain, Librarian Dreadnought, and Lemartes after the DC die with Litany of Strength to become Smash Lite.  The Inquisitor would drop in the Pod to shut off overwatch for the DC blob or possibly whoever Forlorn's on T1.  The Tacticals would ride in the Pod to both screen the Inquisitor from shooting and maybe hold a midfield objective.  They're included simply because that's my last option for troops from what I currently own.

 

I really like the idea of planning to go second, both because it's the safer bet, and it lets you have a lot more information on what you need to accomplish each turn in terms of scoring.  That said, the plan for the rest of the list would be to hide all of the troops as well as possible to just hold the board and avoid giving my opponent kills in his/her first two turns.  

 

That leaves me with what to fill out the rest of the list with.  I feel like I have anti-tank covered, so I'm looking for more anti-infantry/screen clearing.  Additionally, with no vehicles other than a character dreadnought big guns don't necessarily need to be dealt with that quickly anyway.  I'd like to keep my list infantry based at this point so that the opponent's big guns are largely wasted.  I'd also like more shooting, as that is clearly quite lacking in this list.  Lastly, I think I'd like to refrain from more jump pack units as I'll be low on CP to help them make charges.

 

The options I've identified are as follows:

 

Option 1

Max unit of Aggressors.  These would provide a fantastic amount of anti-infantry firepower and fit most of my noted requirements.  However, they'll be nearly impossible to hide, giving my opponent an obvious target for T1.  Using the Standard of Sacrifice/Transhuman on them would help, but I don't know if it would be enough to keep them a viable contributor for my T1/T2.

 

Option 2

More characters, probably Mephiston and The Sanguinor.  This is dumping more eggs into the melee basket, but fits all of my other criteria I think.  They would each contribute well in melee, would be largely untargetable in early turns, and are even light on the wallet comparatively.

 

Option 3

Tactical Terminators.  I know they aren't super efficient, but I love Terminators like everybody else, so I'm willing to entertain the idea.  Even if they don't make their charge they would still put out a high volume of anti-infantry shooting (which is why I went Tactical and not Assault) and could camp a midfield objective if nothing else.  The primary issue (aside from their baseline viability) is running into the Tactical Reserve limit given what else is likely to be in reserve.

 

Option 4

Relic Leviathan Dreadnought.  This violates the no-vehicle rule, but with the new half damage stratagem I think it's survivable enough to still be a candidate.  With Storm Cannons it has just the type of firepower I'm looking for albeit with limited range.  The other issue is that I'd have to find room for another heavy support option to meet the relic requirement.  Probably a single Heavy Bolter Dev Squad which would ride the Drop Pod instead of the Tacs.

 

Option 5

Company/Sternguard Veterans in Drop Pod.  These could provide decent anti-infantry shooting, wouldn't run into the Tactical Reserve rule, and wouldn't be CP intensive.  The issue is their survivability after they drop, though my opponent should have bigger fish to fry.  Additionally, a smart opponent could make it challenging to find room on the table for the Drop Pod and 10 more infantry models.

 

Option 6

More troops to turn the Vanguard into another Battalion.  More CPs are always useful, more bodies on the ground are always useful, and could contribute a bit to anti-infantry/screen clearing.  They'd also help with scoring of course.  The main complaint is that they just aren't sexy, and I'd probably have to remove the Drop Pod/Inquisitor shenanigans to make them fit.  Using Infiltrators/Incursors would make them durable/hideable which would be a priority for early turns.  Scouts are another easy option, but I'd like to avoid investing in even more Scouts.  Maybe Sniper Scouts?

 

And that's where I'm at.  I appreciate any insight and welcome any discussion/suggestions/criticism of the options I've identified.  The rest of the list is fairly solidified however, as I don't have the hobby budget to change course drastically.  Thanks!  (And sorry for the novella.)

 

 

[Hintzy]

At this point I'm leaning toward Option 1, Aggressors. If I swap the Librarian Dreadnought for Mephiston they could get Shield of Sanguinius for even more early turn survivability. Though, not on T1 if I stay true to my intent of opting to go second.

 

After doing the math, more deepstrikers just aren't an option in terms of Tactical Reserves.

 

Any thoughts?

[Xenith]

While in my opinion, competitive is a mindset during the game, as opposed to only list building, the two dovetail together. Depending on the meta youll have good games with your current model availability.rMy first comment is that you may get some additional constructive feedback in the BA army list section of the forum. 

 

List comments are that you have 2 warlords listed. I'd keep Slamguinius as the WL with death visions. The 5+++ rerollable takes him from threatening but easy to remove, to a genuine thorn.

 

Tac squads without special/heavies are pointless. Might as well take more intercessors (better killy) or scouts (bolters that can advance deploy for fewer points). I'd get them at least twin specials and a power sword/axe. 2x plasma should do.  

 

Your list is currently assault only focussed and has zero capacity to deal with armour at range. I dont see a ranged weapon over S4. If the tournament scene there is competitive enough to be worth optimising a list for, you're going to get stomped without equipping your army for a range of threats. I'd consider adding some long range AT. 3xLC1xML devs could work and leave you points remaining. 

[SnorriSnorrison]

I’d echo what Xenith said, you’ll most likely encounter vehicles/big targets in competitive environments. 270 points I’d spend on two 2x LC dev squads so you have ablative sounds and two 2+ BS shots, and that leaves you with 40 points to spend.

 

LC contemptors are also solid, but I think you’d be over the newly acquired budget when taking two of them.

[Hintzy]

While in my opinion, competitive is a mindset during the game, as opposed to only list building, the two dovetail together. Depending on the meta youll have good games with your current model availability.rMy first comment is that you may get some additional constructive feedback in the BA army list section of the forum.

 

List comments are that you have 2 warlords listed. I'd keep Slamguinius as the WL with death visions. The 5+++ rerollable takes him from threatening but easy to remove, to a genuine thorn.

 

Tac squads without special/heavies are pointless. Might as well take more intercessors (better killy) or scouts (bolters that can advance deploy for fewer points). I'd get them at least twin specials and a power sword/axe. 2x plasma should do.

 

Your list is currently assault only focussed and has zero capacity to deal with armour at range. I dont see a ranged weapon over S4. If the tournament scene there is competitive enough to be worth optimising a list for, you're going to get stomped without equipping your army for a range of threats. I'd consider adding some long range AT. 3xLC1xML devs could work and leave you points remaining.

The warlord trait on the Captain is a result of the new stratagem from PA. I know the Tacticals aren't optimal, but they're what I currently own, and I would like to fill out a 2k list before going back to reevaluate troops. I didn't post in the list forum because I was looking for feedback on the options I spelled out rather than the list as a whole and felt this side of the Blood Angels group was significantly more active. I hadn't really considered Devs because they're just as fragile as Tacs but much more worth shooting at. But I'll reevaluate that option because I hadn't really given them a fair shake. Lastly, I know more shooting would help, but I feel like at this point it'd take more than a few dev squads to really kill anything and make shooting wholly worthwhile. With hobby budget constraints that isn't really an option at the moment so I was hoping to optimize what I've got with as minimal an investment as possible.

 

Thanks for input

[Dont-Be-Haten]

What are you okay with giving up? If you take the full 6 man squad of aggressors and back them with TP and SoS you reduce the likelihood of giving them up. And with the priest you can bring them back each turn. And I doubt anyone would take gang busters against you for just 1 unit to try and deal with.

 

The biggest advantage to the Aggressors is you can always combat squad them so you can hide them better if need be. Otherwise just shuttle them up the board.

 

With additional characters everyone will take head hunter against you. And I really think 2 invictus war suits would be ace for that immediate pressure. But not having those you need to be able to counter them some how.

 

The first thing I thought about your list is, "Man this list could really use some bikes! With how good bikes are in general they've been amplified with our supplement.

 

It wouldn't be terrible if you did add in some additional MSU tactical squads. You could kit the squad out with a specialist weapon or 2. Depending on how aggressive your play style is. A plasma/combi-plasma combination or a lascannon would both be solid options to help clear screens and score objectives.

 

You could also take an additional drop pod with a cheap TAC or ASM squad both sporting double specialty weapons. (I'm thinking in terms of things you may own)

 

Just looking at your list vs what your meta is, you have no long range capabilities to deal with AV.

 

Heavy weapon tacticals or devs would also been a boon for you.

 

Nothing sucks worse than not rolling enough damage on a knight and then he stompy-feets you to death.

 

What I do is I make a plan. And how can I give that squad the best chance to succeed. Personally if I'm taking soul Warden on a librarian for an additional deny. Gifts isn't doing your libby any favors.

 

I would also look at what can survive long enough for a turn 2 assault. Things like bikes with melta/plasma/grav are going to really pressure multi-wound models and AV from turn 1, which synergize well with your aggressive list.

 

I've talked about it a lot before, but I usually only take 2 melee centric units. DC + vets or Vets + Guard. On occasion I take jumpy DC and SG but I usually keep those separate. I find better success that way.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Let me add this. Going second used to be priority. It allows you the final play of the game to ink out a win or tie. I think you have some pretty good units that can hide, though you may give up a lot of points in turn 1. You may get hold more, but almost assuredly you'll lose more.

 

If it's a fast enough army they may also take that from you early on. You may want to select the stay in place objective to score points for a hidden troop choice.

 

I wouldn't select that if they have artillery fire though. Nothing is worse than IF whirlwinds in that regard.

 

Have you thought about your priorities to get you the most points? For instance I wouldn't select old school with your list as you're not very likely to kill things turn 1. If going second your DC are too vulnerable etc. Butchers bill may be an option, but the only way you're going to score BGH is in melee and that may be a tall task since you can't stack the two.

[Hintzy]

What are you okay with giving up? If you take the full 6 man squad of aggressors and back them with TP and SoS you reduce the likelihood of giving them up. And with the priest you can bring them back each turn. And I doubt anyone would take gang busters against you for just 1 unit to try and deal with.

Exactly what I was thinking. If I go with the Aggressors the Priest would almost certainly start on the board with them.

 

The biggest advantage to the Aggressors is you can always combat squad them so you can hide them better if need be. Otherwise just shuttle them up the board.

Great tip, thanks!

 

With additional characters everyone will take head hunter against you. And I really think 2 invictus war suits would be ace for that immediate pressure. But not having those you need to be able to counter them some how.

I think giving up headhunter for a Blood Angels army is pretty much a given, so I'd just accepted that. Unless we try to run a gunline I think almost all of our characters want to end up in or near melee.

 

The first thing I thought about your list is, "Man this list could really use some bikes! With how good bikes are in general they've been amplified with our supplement.

Another great suggestion, one I'd considered previously but not recently. I'll reconsider them. My primary concern was that they aren't quite as durable as Aggressors and are probably even harder to hide.

 

Just looking at your list vs what your meta is, you have no long range capabilities to deal with AV.

Entirely fair, I'm just banking on highly mobile infantry being able to handle it.

 

Heavy weapon tacticals or devs would also been a boon for you.

 

Nothing sucks worse than not rolling enough damage on a knight and then he stompy-feets you to death.

Or explodes all over you, another downside of my melee heavy list

[Hintzy]

Have you thought about your priorities to get you the most points? For instance I wouldn't select old school with your list as you're not very likely to kill things turn 1. If going second your DC are too vulnerable etc. Butchers bill may be an option, but the only way you're going to score BGH is in melee and that may be a tall task since you can't stack the two.

I think I'll probably always end up taking recon and one kill secondary suited to the opponent's army. As far as a third selection I'm not sure, but engineers is a consideration. I've considered swapping the Intercessors for Infiltrators to use as my engineers since they're not chargeable out of deepstrike and have smoke grenades.

 

As long as a worthwhile target presents itself the Captain is likely to get Forlorn'd up first turn to get kill one for first turn, so old school is doable. If I end up with first turn the Death Company will probably be sent up instead.