Blood of Baal new tactica!

[Neuralshock]

Welcome to the new (blood red) dawn of the Blood Angels!

 

Here we can focus the discussion on the new combos, synergies, and theory vs results that we see in practice. All for the goal of sharpening our teeth in a competitive setting (ITC, ETC, or otherwise). Note this shouldn't be for list analysis or advice (whole subforum for that), but talking about the broader concepts of a list. (eg. how much anti-tank shooting, establishing effective board control)

 

To start off, the litanies brings massive utility to our already pretty effective chaplains. Canticle of hate is the one I want to highlight. On face value, the +2 to charges is 24k, no debate. 7 inch rerollable death company charges pushes 80% charge reliability so the choppy choppy can commence is amazing. The real special sauce I think is in the 6 inch pile in and consolidates which massively extends the range at which we can wrap or give the bad touch to. It's not an autopilot maneuver, as the chaplain needs to stay within 6 inches for both moves, but with a little forward planning you should have no problem keeping the chaplain in range. Additional shenanigans include our older wording of Honor the Chapter which will allow a further 12 inches of movement for 24 inches total!

 

you can really set yourself up for a huge launch up the board in your opponents turn with a few wily tricks, setting up a sacrificial unit of scouts in front of a ruin with chaplain with CoH and DC 5 inches behind the scouts. Opponent charges the scouts and you heroically intervene the DC 6 inches with the BoB stratagem, pile in a further 6 inches, hopefully kill the unwitting assailants, and  then consolidate 6 inches up the board, so 12+ movement in your opponents phase!

[Panzer]

Something I'd like to point out is ... melee units in drop pods.

For one we could do the already known UWoF Chaplain trick, however even without a Chaplain it has merrit thanks to our new +1 to charge roll addition to Red Thirst. If you like to alpha strike together with some Incursors and Warsuits and whatnot then this is definitely for you.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Something I'd like to point out is ... melee units in drop pods.

For one we could do the already known UWoF Chaplain trick, however even without a Chaplain it has merrit thanks to our new +1 to charge roll addition to Red Thirst. If you like to alpha strike together with some Incursors and Warsuits and whatnot then this is definitely for you.

I've got 10 death company on foot that agree with this statement. Gonna be pretty wild getting them in the turn 1 charge (though I think the points sink for the drop pod costs a bit more than with jump packs, but oh well.)

[Panzer]

Kinda makes me wish we had Drop Pods for Primaris so I could put my DC Intercessors in there. ^^

[Neuralshock]

 

 

Something I'd like to point out is ... melee units in drop pods.

For one we could do the already known UWoF Chaplain trick, however even without a Chaplain it has merrit thanks to our new +1 to charge roll addition to Red Thirst. If you like to alpha strike together with some Incursors and Warsuits and whatnot then this is definitely for you.

I've got 10 death company on foot that agree with this statement. Gonna be pretty wild getting them in the turn 1 charge (though I think the points sink for the drop pod costs a bit more than with jump packs, but oh well.)

 

I think you're right on the drop pod being unnecessary, you get the same rule for free with jump packs. Pods are probably better suited for fire support units you want plonked down mid-field.

 

You can also use the drop pod empty to block out a huge part of the backfield and objective holder.

[Indefragable]

When it comes to fighting, know the order you want things to punch. A smart enemy will milk the :cuss out of the 2CP Interrupt (can never remember its actual name) Strategem as well as Transhuman Physiology if they can pull that, so make sure you are well versed in which of your units can survive a counter-punch and which can't. Sometimes it's best to forgo a unit going first if it is both punchy and resilient so that a punchy squishy unit can strike first. A smart opponent will prioritize the squishiest, punchiest unit that has not yet fought first to get maximum mileage out of the Strategem.

[9x19 Parabellum]

The thing about the 10 DC on foot in Drop Pod is that they don't count against your tactical reserves, which the jump DC do, and they can come in first turn.

 

And/or they don't cost 2 CP (due to forlorn fury or descent of angels).

 

So depending on what your plan is and what resource is more important (CPs vs. army points) it can make sense to put them in drop pod.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

The thing about the 10 DC on foot in Drop Pod is that they don't count against your tactical reserves, which the jump DC do, and they can come in first turn.

 

And/or they don't cost 2 CP (due to forlorn fury or descent of angels).

 

So depending on what your plan is and what resource is more important (CPs vs. army points) it can make sense to put them in drop pod.

That was my thought process. Drop pod in 9" away. UwoF Lemartes if need be, or Icon in a second drop pod with character's support for re-roll 8" doable charge for turn 1 carnage.

[Neuralshock]

 

The thing about the 10 DC on foot in Drop Pod is that they don't count against your tactical reserves, which the jump DC do, and they can come in first turn.

 

And/or they don't cost 2 CP (due to forlorn fury or descent of angels).

 

So depending on what your plan is and what resource is more important (CPs vs. army points) it can make sense to put them in drop pod.

That was my thought process. Drop pod in 9" away. UwoF Lemartes if need be, or Icon in a second drop pod with character's support for re-roll 8" doable charge for turn 1 carnage.

 

Cool I hadn't thought of it that way before. That would definitely helps preserve crucial CP although I think dedicating two drop pods to a single 10 man DC bomb is pushing "eggs in one basket" limits.

 

Maybe rocking 9 + support character is a good push unit.

 

 

On a semi related topic, what makes a "balanced" force of pure BA? what components do you put out on the table and how has it worked for you? Has anyone gotten a practice game in with the new rules?

[Panzer]

 

 

Something I'd like to point out is ... melee units in drop pods.

For one we could do the already known UWoF Chaplain trick, however even without a Chaplain it has merrit thanks to our new +1 to charge roll addition to Red Thirst. If you like to alpha strike together with some Incursors and Warsuits and whatnot then this is definitely for you.

I've got 10 death company on foot that agree with this statement. Gonna be pretty wild getting them in the turn 1 charge (though I think the points sink for the drop pod costs a bit more than with jump packs, but oh well.)

 

 

I think you're right on the drop pod being unnecessary, you get the same rule for free with jump packs. Pods are probably better suited for fire support units you want plonked down mid-field.

 

You can also use the drop pod empty to block out a huge part of the backfield and objective holder.

 

 

The point of Drop Pods is obviously the turn 1 charge. That's something you can only do with JP DC via UWoF or Furlorn Fury which both cost CP in a very CP starved army plus bear a lot of risk since your opponent could steal the initiative and shoot them off the table.

 

 

 

 

The thing about the 10 DC on foot in Drop Pod is that they don't count against your tactical reserves, which the jump DC do, and they can come in first turn.

 

And/or they don't cost 2 CP (due to forlorn fury or descent of angels).

 

So depending on what your plan is and what resource is more important (CPs vs. army points) it can make sense to put them in drop pod.

That was my thought process. Drop pod in 9" away. UwoF Lemartes if need be, or Icon in a second drop pod with character's support for re-roll 8" doable charge for turn 1 carnage.

 

Cool I hadn't thought of it that way before. That would definitely helps preserve crucial CP although I think dedicating two drop pods to a single 10 man DC bomb is pushing "eggs in one basket" limits.

 

 

No it doesn't. It's in reserves so it's protected for any "eggs in one basket" issues.

Edited December 4, 2019 by sfPanzer

[SnorriSnorrison]

Drop pod assault units suffer the same fate as other non-JP units after their initial assault though - they’re slow and likely to be isolated and overwhelmed.

I’ve pondered this since the return of drop pods coming down on turn 1, but we didn’t have the means to make a charge more likely. We do now.

 

Mostly, you’d still need to chew through chaff mostly, which in turn will keep your DC from deploying close to the juicy targets and getting into charge range of them. Unless you want to use the DC to clear chaff, I’d not use the DP strategy for a key assault unit. For that however, we have better options to clear chaff via shooting, even CC scouts.

 

Could be a good way to set up a high-threat unit in the opponent’s face right at the start of the game though, so your army can advance a bit safer.

[Karhedron]

I am coming around to this idea. A single Pod is not too expensive under the circumstances and can throw a significant wrench into your opponent's works.

 

I am wondering if Van Vets would also work in this role as I have an old 10-man squad on foot that I built way back in 3rd edition. Not quite as punchy as the DC but a bit cheaper. What sort of icon bearer would work best? A cheapish Lt perhaps?

[Panzer]

Drop pod assault units suffer the same fate as other non-JP units after their initial assault though - they’re slow and likely to be isolated and overwhelmed.

I’ve pondered this since the return of drop pods coming down on turn 1, but we didn’t have the means to make a charge more likely. We do now.

 

Mostly, you’d still need to chew through chaff mostly, which in turn will keep your DC from deploying close to the juicy targets and getting into charge range of them. Unless you want to use the DC to clear chaff, I’d not use the DP strategy for a key assault unit. For that however, we have better options to clear chaff via shooting, even CC scouts.

 

Could be a good way to set up a high-threat unit in the opponent’s face right at the start of the game though, so your army can advance a bit safer.

 

On the other hand turn 1 your enemies army is usually all in one place so getting isolated is not really an issue and it's obviously a strategy you commit to so you should be the one to overwhelm your opponent, not the other way around.

 

Chaff can be an issue but doesn't need to. You can use it to pile-in and consolidate into other units as well. The only thing that would really ruin it would be Infiltrators with their 12" bubble.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Drop pod assault units suffer the same fate as other non-JP units after their initial assault though - they’re slow and likely to be isolated and overwhelmed.

I’ve pondered this since the return of drop pods coming down on turn 1, but we didn’t have the means to make a charge more likely. We do now.

 

Mostly, you’d still need to chew through chaff mostly, which in turn will keep your DC from deploying close to the juicy targets and getting into charge range of them. Unless you want to use the DC to clear chaff, I’d not use the DP strategy for a key assault unit. For that however, we have better options to clear chaff via shooting, even CC scouts.

 

Could be a good way to set up a high-threat unit in the opponent’s face right at the start of the game though, so your army can advance a bit safer.

But you're also blocking movement lanes, pressuring your opponents target priority, and essentially having pin point placement.

 

Starting out in dev doctrine you also have the option to take some heavy bolter or grav-cannon devs alongside the icon bearer to help clear chaff.

 

Or you could also look at some whirlwinds who aren't in LoS dropping mortar shells onto screens backed by the -1 AP thanks to dev doctrine.

 

There's definitely an army build that focuses on you getting the Alpha/Beta strike off.

 

If you're playing certain key missions things like First blood/strike are very important because you can steal a victory point from your opponent etc.

[SnorriSnorrison]

 

 

Drop pod assault units suffer the same fate as other non-JP units after their initial assault though - they’re slow and likely to be isolated and overwhelmed.

I’ve pondered this since the return of drop pods coming down on turn 1, but we didn’t have the means to make a charge more likely. We do now.

 

Mostly, you’d still need to chew through chaff mostly, which in turn will keep your DC from deploying close to the juicy targets and getting into charge range of them. Unless you want to use the DC to clear chaff, I’d not use the DP strategy for a key assault unit. For that however, we have better options to clear chaff via shooting, even CC scouts.

 

Could be a good way to set up a high-threat unit in the opponent’s face right at the start of the game though, so your army can advance a bit safer.

On the other hand turn 1 your enemies army is usually all in one place so getting isolated is not really an issue and it's obviously a strategy you commit to so you should be the one to overwhelm your opponent, not the other way around.

 

Chaff can be an issue but doesn't need to. You can use it to pile-in and consolidate into other units as well. The only thing that would really ruin it would be Infiltrators with their 12" bubble.

Really? Mine aren’t most of the time. :D I usually have to get through a layer of chaff or something nasty such as Genestealers. And 10 DC will struggle with those, again in the worst case of catalyst being on. Just as an example.

 

Speaking of a worst case here, you’d have to assume that your opponent layers his chaff perfectly so you’re outside of 3” for consolidating. Then you’ll need Astorath support for casting multiple litanies, +2 to charges and the consolidate 6“ (incl. exploding 6‘s). Could work, but there’s a good chance it won’t. You’ll most likely get First Strike, so that’s good.

 

 

Drop pod assault units suffer the same fate as other non-JP units after their initial assault though - they’re slow and likely to be isolated and overwhelmed.

I’ve pondered this since the return of drop pods coming down on turn 1, but we didn’t have the means to make a charge more likely. We do now.

 

Mostly, you’d still need to chew through chaff mostly, which in turn will keep your DC from deploying close to the juicy targets and getting into charge range of them. Unless you want to use the DC to clear chaff, I’d not use the DP strategy for a key assault unit. For that however, we have better options to clear chaff via shooting, even CC scouts.

 

Could be a good way to set up a high-threat unit in the opponent’s face right at the start of the game though, so your army can advance a bit safer.

But you're also blocking movement lanes, pressuring your opponents target priority, and essentially having pin point placement.

 

Starting out in dev doctrine you also have the option to take some heavy bolter or grav-cannon devs alongside the icon bearer to help clear chaff.

 

Or you could also look at some whirlwinds who aren't in LoS dropping mortar shells onto screens backed by the -1 AP thanks to dev doctrine.

 

There's definitely an army build that focuses on you getting the Alpha/Beta strike off.

 

If you're playing certain key missions things like First blood/strike are very important because you can steal a victory point from your opponent etc.

I’d take 2 pods to funnel the opponent into fire corridors for example, but not with Devastators. We don’t get the grav strat so you might as well set them up in your deployment zone, especially with heavy bolters and such. Or take tanks instead.

 

I like Karhedron’s take a bit better, to drop vanguard Veterans from another pod alongside the DC, one guy with the Icon into the other pod, round up around him and go for it. That’s 2 units which will wreck face and most likely make it into combat. Or Sternguards to help with the chaff.

 

Still, that leaves the problem that you can’t ignore chaffing units in front of the good stuff and have to wipe them out before. Circling units entirely is also a bit harder on foot.

 

Could be an interesting take for sure, but might be a bit much of an investment in points. Saves you CP, though!

[Neuralshock]

The other problem that goes along with drop pods is you give your opponent an opportunity to be completely immune to any of your fire support. A smart opponent won't kill a pod but simply hug it so any shooting is useless.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

 

 

Drop pod assault units suffer the same fate as other non-JP units after their initial assault though - they’re slow and likely to be isolated and overwhelmed.

I’ve pondered this since the return of drop pods coming down on turn 1, but we didn’t have the means to make a charge more likely. We do now.

 

Mostly, you’d still need to chew through chaff mostly, which in turn will keep your DC from deploying close to the juicy targets and getting into charge range of them. Unless you want to use the DC to clear chaff, I’d not use the DP strategy for a key assault unit. For that however, we have better options to clear chaff via shooting, even CC scouts.

 

Could be a good way to set up a high-threat unit in the opponent’s face right at the start of the game though, so your army can advance a bit safer.

On the other hand turn 1 your enemies army is usually all in one place so getting isolated is not really an issue and it's obviously a strategy you commit to so you should be the one to overwhelm your opponent, not the other way around.

 

Chaff can be an issue but doesn't need to. You can use it to pile-in and consolidate into other units as well. The only thing that would really ruin it would be Infiltrators with their 12" bubble.

Really? Mine aren’t most of the time. I usually have to get through a layer of chaff or something nasty such as Genestealers. And 10 DC will struggle with those, again in the worst case of catalyst being on. Just as an example.

 

Speaking of a worst case here, you’d have to assume that your opponent layers his chaff perfectly so you’re outside of 3” for consolidating. Then you’ll need Astorath support for casting multiple litanies, +2 to charges and the consolidate 6“ (incl. exploding 6‘s). Could work, but there’s a good chance it won’t. You’ll most likely get First Strike, so that’s good.

 

 

Drop pod assault units suffer the same fate as other non-JP units after their initial assault though - they’re slow and likely to be isolated and overwhelmed.

I’ve pondered this since the return of drop pods coming down on turn 1, but we didn’t have the means to make a charge more likely. We do now.

 

Mostly, you’d still need to chew through chaff mostly, which in turn will keep your DC from deploying close to the juicy targets and getting into charge range of them. Unless you want to use the DC to clear chaff, I’d not use the DP strategy for a key assault unit. For that however, we have better options to clear chaff via shooting, even CC scouts.

 

Could be a good way to set up a high-threat unit in the opponent’s face right at the start of the game though, so your army can advance a bit safer.

But you're also blocking movement lanes, pressuring your opponents target priority, and essentially having pin point placement.

 

Starting out in dev doctrine you also have the option to take some heavy bolter or grav-cannon devs alongside the icon bearer to help clear chaff.

 

Or you could also look at some whirlwinds who aren't in LoS dropping mortar shells onto screens backed by the -1 AP thanks to dev doctrine.

 

There's definitely an army build that focuses on you getting the Alpha/Beta strike off.

 

If you're playing certain key missions things like First blood/strike are very important because you can steal a victory point from your opponent etc.

I’d take 2 pods to funnel the opponent into fire corridors for example, but not with Devastators. We don’t get the grav strat so you might as well set them up in your deployment zone, especially with heavy bolters and such. Or take tanks instead.

 

I like Karhedron’s take a bit better, to drop vanguard Veterans from another pod alongside the DC, one guy with the Icon into the other pod, round up around him and go for it. That’s 2 units which will wreck face and most likely make it into combat. Or Sternguards to help with the chaff.

 

Still, that leaves the problem that you can’t ignore chaffing units in front of the good stuff and have to wipe them out before. Circling units entirely is also a bit harder on foot.

 

Could be an interesting take for sure, but might be a bit much of an investment in points. Saves you CP, though!

 

I'm just thinking up things I already have access to. RAS without jump packs, two plasma guns in a pod with a librarian casting Rage and Shield would be a huge boon with almost no draw back and wouldn't cost too many points.

 

Hmm...I have all these Assault marines with out jump packs from my 5th ed days that haven't seen the table in years. I would love to get them back on the board for sure.

[Xenith]

The other problem that goes along with drop pods is you give your opponent an opportunity to be completely immune to any of your fire support. A smart opponent won't kill a pod but simply hug it so any shooting is useless.

 

I'd be 100% happy for my opponent to assault my drop pods. Less things shooting back at me. 

[Chronos1985]

I think given how CP hungry we will be, and with Assassins not being so much an option anymore. Coteaz has THREE psychic spells, with smite, castigation, and I believe he also as a utility spell where he can stop overwatch. That's not even mentioning his inherit talents of costing an enemy 1 additional CP plus the CP regeneration.

 

Big for the new new Blood Angels. Auto include every time for me.

[Hintzy]

I think given how CP hungry we will be, and with Assassins not being so much an option anymore. Coteaz has THREE psychic spells, with smite, castigation, and I believe he also as a utility spell where he can stop overwatch. That's not even mentioning his inherit talents of costing an enemy 1 additional CP plus the CP regeneration.

 

Big for the new new Blood Angels. Auto include every time for me.

Just to clarify, in order to get the third cast you have to pay a CP to give him a warlord trait, of which you are required to choose the predetermined extra cast/deny trait. The CP regen is also a warlord trait, which Coteaz cannot take.

[Djangomatic82]

 

I think given how CP hungry we will be, and with Assassins not being so much an option anymore. Coteaz has THREE psychic spells, with smite, castigation, and I believe he also as a utility spell where he can stop overwatch. That's not even mentioning his inherit talents of costing an enemy 1 additional CP plus the CP regeneration.

 

Big for the new new Blood Angels. Auto include every time for me.

Just to clarify, in order to get the third cast you have to pay a CP to give him a warlord trait, of which you are required to choose the predetermined extra cast/deny trait. The CP regen is also a warlord trait, which Coteaz cannot take.

 

I was looking at his data card in the WD issue and came to the same conclusion. But a basic Inquisitor equipped with a Force Stave and Castigator boltgun, using Ordo Xenos:Esoteric Lore WL trait, taking the Mental Interrogation power and Black Shroud relic give you a character that can generate CP on a 5+ when enemies use them and when using the psychic power, as well as having a 5+ FNP. Pair that with 3x Acolytes and you have a Vanguard unit for 88 points.

[Hintzy]

Disregard Edited December 5, 2019 by Hintzy

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I will say I've watched a few battle reports using the new codex.

 

These guys have done the same thing so many others from previously uploaded videos do. They get trapped in the BA specialty Units and overload them.*

 

There's some great stuff in the book but the general piloting them are very discouraging.

 

I think Astorath being able to drop 2 litanies a turn is amazing the fact he knows 5 is also very very good. I think he is best utilized with buffing Vanguard Veterans over Death Company. If you are charging and have thunder hammers/powerfists for thrones sake activate hate to re-roll misses in melee, followed by which ever you want.

 

Lemartes is better for jumpy DC. Since he allows the re-roll charges and re-roll misses in close combat.

 

The Batreps I've watched haven't utilized the strengths of BA to their fullest yet.

 

We have a lot of parody with our characters and units. Although a base line 6+++ on DC is still hot garbage and I dislike the fact we have to spend a CP to make it a 5+++. For a CP ravenous army like ours it puts pressure on us not to make a tactical decision.

 

Perhaps the Veritas Vitae is needed to try and fish some CP back (just REMEMBER to ROLL it!).

 

Sanguinary Guard are pretty good with an extra attack from shock assault, but they really need the sanguinor or unleash rage to really get mileage in the early rounds.

 

Speaking of, a support librarian may be an auto include for me until I actually play test a few games.

 

Combat doctrines are another beasty all by itself. There's so much excitement of getting to the assault doctrine but honestly I think many of the people genraling the BA jump the gun. There have been a couple of cases in recent videos where it would behoove you to stay in tactical an additional turn. This is important of you are running a lot of AP - bolters and aren't going to be able to charge a unit off an objective. If the majority of your melee has survived to turn three then this is less of an issue.

 

Although I will say if I'm running Sanguinary Guard, AP -2 Angelus Bolters with ignores cover and re-rolling misses was ace. That being said an additional attack on them is great, however if you're already buffing them with Unleash Rage and/or the sanguinor they aren't as focused on the assault doctrine.**

 

Something I noticed from table top tactics is ASM aren't as terrible now. They aren't great but the bonuses from additional attacks really makes me feel good. Because they have the opportunity to gain so many attacks they feel like a real combat unit again. Give the sergeant a bloody special weapon though. And whilst I think melta is still decent, plasma is probably better on them. (Reievers with grav-chutes are probably better otherwise)

 

All in all there's a lot of tactica we need to break down.

 

*It's okay we've all done it! Present party included!

**Personal opinion I feel like it's the better option if you're favoring SG over DC.

[Charlo]

SG dropping down in turn 2 for Tactical is bonkers with the Angelus Bolters strat. Very easy to lineup a good charge or buff them further. They don't really *need* the extra AP or A from Assault Doctrine but whatever survives next turn will no doubt benefit from it. Not to mention you can make then -1 to hit.

 

A Literal one-two punch of DC turn one then SG in turn two is very enticing. DC murder screens and SG murder the juicy stuff behind. Meanwhile things like Vet Intercessors, Tacticals and other drop units get into position and do what they can. It's incredibly fluffy and fits the play style well!

[Loishy]

wrong topic.

Edited December 5, 2019 by Loishy