Blood of Baal new tactica!

[Dont-Be-Haten]

 

Can we all agree that triple battalions are not the way to go? I've now watched 2 bat reps with triple battalions and the armies are trash.

I normally only play 1500-1750 points so I don't think I would be able to afford a triple battalion. Having said that, I am interested to know what is wrong with them. Is it just too many Troops and not enough muscle to back them up?

 

Exactly this. They give up too many kills and don't have any availability to deal out any real damage. They are hoping to accomplish everything in the fight phase and that just isn't plausible in ITC/Competitive formats.

 

I wouldn’t rule anything out just on principle.

 

A. It’s the skill of the general. If he’s most comfortable with 9x naked Tactical squads and knows how to wield them like a katana, all the more power to him/her.

 

B. Infiltrator/Incursor spam has a lot of power in theory, so I could see that working. I have had good success with Scout spam, but that’s because I’ve had a lot of practice and I have appropriate expectations.

 

Without seeing any of these videos, and not knowing anymore that what has been relayed here, my guess would be that its players who are not familiar with BA/our intricacies and are power building based off what the internet or ITC taking heads are saying should work. My guess is they are Troop spamming for CP since their entire strategy is down down up up left right left right power combos of UWoF + DVoS + Red Rampage and that’s where their imagination ends.

3/6 squads of scouts and/or 3/6 squads of intercessors just aren't going to win you ITC missions. They are going to give up tons of points and are too slow to be effective or parse enough damage for you to do anything. Add the fact that characters galor isn't what you need either. I just don't understand why they don't just take a brigade if they are going to take 9 troop options that can't out shoot anything, and can't weather weighted fire. Then they could at least throw in a supreme command detachment for something extra.

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

Going to be testing this out tonight! Really excited to try out a brigade.

 

++ Brigade Detachment +12CP (Imperium - Blood Angels) [138 PL, 14CP, 2,000pts] ++

 

+ No Force Org Slot +

 

**CHAPTER**: Blood Angels

 

Armoury of Baal [-1CP]: 1 Additional Relic

 

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

 

Detachment CP [12CP]

 

Gametype: Matched

 

+ HQ +

 

Captain : Bolt pistol, Jump Pack, Power sword, The Angel's Wing (replaces jump pack)

 

Chaplain : 4. Mantra of Strength, 6. Canticle of Hate, Bolt pistol, Invocation of Destruction, Litanies of Hate

 

Sanguinary Priest : 5. Gift of Foresight, Artificer Armor, Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Jump Pack, Warlord

 

+ Troops +

 

Scout Squad

. Scout: Combat knife

. Scout: Combat knife

. Scout: Combat knife

. Scout: Combat knife

. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combat knife

 

Scout Squad

. Scout: Combat knife

. Scout: Combat knife

. Scout: Combat knife

. Scout: Combat knife

. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combat knife

 

Tactical Squad

. 3x Space Marine

. Space Marine (Heavy weapon): Lascannon

. Space Marine Sergeant

. . Bolt pistol and boltgun

 

Tactical Squad

. 3x Space Marine

. Space Marine (Heavy weapon): Lascannon

. Space Marine Sergeant

. . Bolt pistol and boltgun

 

Tactical Squad

. 3x Space Marine

. Space Marine (Heavy weapon): Lascannon

. Space Marine Sergeant

. . Bolt pistol and boltgun

 

Tactical Squad

. 3x Space Marine

. Space Marine (Heavy weapon): Lascannon

. Space Marine Sergeant

. . Bolt pistol and boltgun

 

+ Elites +

 

Death Company

. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Power sword

. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Power sword

. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Power sword

. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Power sword

. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Power sword

. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Power sword

. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Power sword

. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Power sword

 

Dreadnought : Missile launcher, Twin lascannon

 

Sanguinary Guard

. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword

. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword

. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword

. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword

. Sanguinary Guard: Angelus boltgun, Encarmine sword

 

+ Fast Attack +

 

Attack Bike Squad

. Attack Bike: Multi-melta, Twin boltgun

 

Attack Bike Squad

. Attack Bike: Multi-melta, Twin boltgun

 

Attack Bike Squad

. Attack Bike: Multi-melta, Twin boltgun

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Baal Predator : Twin assault cannon

 

Baal Predator : Twin assault cannon

 

Land Raider Crusader : 2x Hurricane bolter, Twin assault cannon

 

+ Dedicated Transport +

 

Razorback : Twin lascannon

 

Razorback : Twin lascannon

 

++ Total: [138 PL, 14CP, 2,000pts] ++

 

Created with BattleScribe

[Indefragable]

 

 

Can we all agree that triple battalions are not the way to go? I've now watched 2 bat reps with triple battalions and the armies are trash.

I normally only play 1500-1750 points so I don't think I would be able to afford a triple battalion. Having said that, I am interested to know what is wrong with them. Is it just too many Troops and not enough muscle to back them up?

 

Exactly this. They give up too many kills and don't have any availability to deal out any real damage. They are hoping to accomplish everything in the fight phase and that just isn't plausible in ITC/Competitive formats.

 

I wouldn’t rule anything out just on principle.

 

A. It’s the skill of the general. If he’s most comfortable with 9x naked Tactical squads and knows how to wield them like a katana, all the more power to him/her.

 

B. Infiltrator/Incursor spam has a lot of power in theory, so I could see that working. I have had good success with Scout spam, but that’s because I’ve had a lot of practice and I have appropriate expectations.

 

Without seeing any of these videos, and not knowing anymore that what has been relayed here, my guess would be that its players who are not familiar with BA/our intricacies and are power building based off what the internet or ITC taking heads are saying should work. My guess is they are Troop spamming for CP since their entire strategy is down down up up left right left right power combos of UWoF + DVoS + Red Rampage and that’s where their imagination ends.

3/6 squads of scouts and/or 3/6 squads of intercessors just aren't going to win you ITC missions. They are going to give up tons of points and are too slow to be effective or parse enough damage for you to do anything. Add the fact that characters galor isn't what you need either. I just don't understand why they don't just take a brigade if they are going to take 9 troop options that can't out shoot anything, and can't weather weighted fire. Then they could at least throw in a supreme command detachment for something extra.

 

 

ITC is a whole other thing. To each their own, so I won't knock it, but it's getting to the point where I almost feel like there should be an entire other forum/set of webpages for ITC related stuff since it's becoming such a different thing and arguably splitting the community...I mean that in a neutral way since there's pros and cons to both, but I've lost track of the # of times in recent months where beer theory sessions just outright end once one side realizes the other is talking ITC and the other isn't et al.

 

My point bigger picture point is that every tournament there's always some player who uses a list that is "not supposed to work" and wins everything (I remember a 7th Ed all-lictor 'Nids army that ran tables even though FLG and co declared lictors as one of the objectively worst units in the entire game). Regardless of ITC format or not, if someone really understands what they are doing and how to use the units they wield, then they can accomplish a lot regardless of mission set up.

 

Are your complaints around the fact that a lot of BA youtubers aren't following a rocks-papers-scissors type of formula? Or that they don't seem to understand the ITC scoring system? Or that they just don't seem to understand BA at all beyond what The Internetz sayz will rockz opponents?

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Completely agree Indy.

 

I've always been a believer that unorthodox lists are usually the strongest builds with the right general, before the internet takes hold and nets it like cookies for Santa.

 

I also agree that ITC missions aren't really playing Warhammer.

 

Truthfully, I feel it's a combination of everything you listed. Non tactical squad troops aren't going to put out enough damage in the early rounds against high toughness models. Maybe a triple battalion would work against fellow MEQ lists, but it isn't a good matchup against much improved Nids lists.

 

Which is kind of ironic as most strong astartes lists run at least a Leviathan, and 1~3 TFC/Centurions and none of the lists I've seen have been strong enough to take anyone one those down in turn 1.

 

The generals are playing zone, when they should be using a full court press, because they can't weather a vicious turn 1.

 

I feel like with BA we need a three tiered army. One made up that at least combos with each doctrine phase. My own personal list that I'm building tries to make a near perfect balance for each phase readying up to a turn 3/4 switch to the assault doctrine.

 

In the end you need to be able to kill at minimum a unit+ a turn in competitive games, and if you aren't parsing that, you're more than likely going to lose.

[The Unseen]

On a more specific note, just had the hilarious thought of a Librarian with a jump pack, takes the relic jump pack for +2 charge distance, then casts quickening for an additional +3. With the Red Thirst already giving +1, you now have a Librarian that adds 6 inches to a charge roll.

So...

Upon Wings of Fire, quickening, and then enjoy your 3" charge distance.

Don't roll snake eyes.

 

I don't know if it's actually *good* because librarians aren't that good in combat, but still.

Edited December 21, 2019 by The Unseen

[Indefragable]

It’s good when it’s unexpected.

 

Especially the ITC crowd who think they know the BA formula already <winks conspiratorially to @DontbeHaten>

 

I’ve had some success in the past with a jump Libby popping out of a Storm Raven then casting wings: 15” move from SR +12” from Wings + up to 12” charge. I would put a Combi melta or inferno pistol on him and his point would be an assassin to kill someone buried deep into the enemy lines. However, I didn’t run him enough to get enough data (especially recently) to know whether it was truly viable. For the record, the brave brave librarian would never survive a game either, though would always accomplish his mission.

[SnorriSnorrison]

On a more specific note, just had the hilarious thought of a Librarian with a jump pack, takes the relic jump pack for +2 charge distance, then casts quickening for an additional +3. With the Red Thirst already giving +1, you now have a Librarian that adds 6 inches to a charge roll.

So...

Upon Wings of Fire, quickening, and then enjoy your 3" charge distance.

Don't roll snake eyes.

I don't know if it's actually *good* because librarians aren't that good in combat, but still.

Do you mean Gleaming Pinions? That only grants +1 to the charge roll, and the total with Red Thirst is +5” for charges....

[Xenith]

 

On a more specific note, just had the hilarious thought of a Librarian with a jump pack, takes the relic jump pack for +2 charge distance, then casts quickening for an additional +3. With the Red Thirst already giving +1, you now have a Librarian that adds 6 inches to a charge roll.

So...

Upon Wings of Fire, quickening, and then enjoy your 3" charge distance.

Don't roll snake eyes.

I don't know if it's actually *good* because librarians aren't that good in combat, but still.

Do you mean Gleaming Pinions? That only grants +1 to the charge roll, and the total with Red Thirst is +5” for charges....

 

 

I'd probably still favour the ignore overwatch Angels Wing. +4/5" is already a lot, and the only think I can see sending a solo character like that after would be a unit with enough firepower to mulch a 4W libby in overwatch. 

[SnorriSnorrison]

 

 

On a more specific note, just had the hilarious thought of a Librarian with a jump pack, takes the relic jump pack for +2 charge distance, then casts quickening for an additional +3. With the Red Thirst already giving +1, you now have a Librarian that adds 6 inches to a charge roll.

So...

Upon Wings of Fire, quickening, and then enjoy your 3" charge distance.

Don't roll snake eyes.

I don't know if it's actually *good* because librarians aren't that good in combat, but still.

 

Do you mean Gleaming Pinions? That only grants +1 to the charge roll, and the total with Red Thirst is +5” for charges....

 

I'd probably still favour the ignore overwatch Angels Wing. +4/5" is already a lot, and the only think I can see sending a solo character like that after would be a unit with enough firepower to mulch a 4W libby in overwatch.

Agree, GP is better on a FT character because they don’t get +1” to their charge and can ignore overwatch with the WL trait.

It’s a pity actually, I like the idea of relic jump packs granting cool bonuses, but I feel GP won’t make it into most lists because of the maximum of 3 relics we can take at the moment and that there’s significantly better ones available.

[The Unseen]

It’s good when it’s unexpected.

 

Especially the ITC crowd who think they know the BA formula already <winks conspiratorially to @DontbeHaten>

 

I’ve had some success in the past with a jump Libby popping out of a Storm Raven then casting wings: 15” move from SR +12” from Wings + up to 12” charge. I would put a Combi melta or inferno pistol on him and his point would be an assassin to kill someone buried deep into the enemy lines. However, I didn’t run him enough to get enough data (especially recently) to know whether it was truly viable. For the record, the brave brave librarian would never survive a game either, though would always accomplish his mission.

I did that often with a jump pack libby back when you could wings after deep striking.

Inferno Pistol+charge will kill most characters, or could tie up a scary shooty unit by using wings to be out of LOS before you charged.

Might be worth looking into again

[Neuralshock]

With most important characters having 3/4++ I've fallen out of love with single shot inferno pistols/meltas. it isn't reliable especially on characters that hit on 3+ with no native access to rerolls. It also bumps up the price of said character/unit by 7 points per model which is detracting from melee weapons we want. I've also almost never gotten a chance to shoot them either with 6'' range.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

With most important characters having 3/4++ I've fallen out of love with single shot inferno pistols/meltas. it isn't reliable especially on characters that hit on 3+ with no native access to rerolls. It also bumps up the price of said character/unit by 7 points per model which is detracting from melee weapons we want. I've also almost never gotten a chance to shoot them either with 6'' range.

To be fair I've kill Mortarion with an inferno pistol before. It's equipped to a chaplain that was supposed to be a DC chaplain I kitbashed. I just wish we had a way to increase the range on our melta pistols...

[Neuralshock]

I'm sure everyone has had a big kill with an inferno pistol before, my point being that those are the outliers because it's basically a coinflip and if there's a FNP you have to take that into consideration. For 7/14 points you're only getting limited return on investment.

[The Unseen]

I mean, you can't run just one and expect to get those game winning shots all the time. But when your packing one on every non-named non-smash captain, and on a few sergeants here and there, they become a very real threat that your opponent can't really kill, since they'd pretty much have to table you to get them all. I've killed Magnus with 2 inferno pistol shots from a Sanguinary Priest and Ancient who were buffing a squad of Sanguinary Guard Magnus tore to shreds thanks to a Warptime move. He piled into them after his charge, they swung and knocked a few wounds off. Then my shooting rolls around and he fails both invuln saves and just takes like 10 damage. Will that happen often? No, but the threat of it is still there.

And I don't know what you mean by all the important characters having a 3++, that's literally just smash captains, and you don't fire meltaguns at them, you drown them in bolter wounds.

 

I like having them because they can help mitigate BA's somewhat lackluster long range options for cracking tanks and monsters. They aren't the best vs T8, you really need lascannons for those, but still.

Its the same reason MM attack bikes do surprisingly well. Your only hitting on 4's, but you have a 38" threat range, 26" for the melta rule, your tough enough that small arms is often wasted, but your low enough priority that you opponent really doesn't want to sink the 2-3 lascannon shots or the main gun on a Russ into them to guarantee they die. Your cheap enough that if they do draw the attention of a big gun, you don't feel that bad about it, and they can make great objective plays with their flat 20" advance (21 now I guess) move.

I have 2 in almost every list I make, just because they can kill more than expected, and have massive utility.

Edited December 23, 2019 by The Unseen

[Neuralshock]

Got in a few ITC games in the last week. A brief summary

 

First one was against RG successors against a club member and good friend who recently won a GT. Had 16 assault centurions... This game was mainly to test out eliminators, supressors, and incursors. I seized and the game began. My friend put 2x centurion blobs in reserve and redeployed a chaplain and centurions into the midfield. I forlorn furied my smash cap into his TFCs. I got mantra of strength off on astorath and UWoF'd him into a ruin out of LOS. Astorath goes in and he pops transhuman phys on the cents and I peel 2 cents instead of the squad. Astorath dies and peels 2 more cents off the board. I end up pushing his deepstrike way into his deployment zone with my board control, but I had lost my killing power. I soaked as many points as I could but it wasn't enough. I lost by 7 points though, so good learning experience.

 

another game was against Tau, something I was looking forward to playing against. There were 2 squads of 3 broadsides, an anti-tank rip tide and drones drones drones. I played cagy and had a 2x twin las contemptor who popped wisdom of the ancients to give rerolls to the suppressors, and whirlwinds. My main goal was to see if I could literally punch my way through the drone ablative wounds. I did! and it learned me some things, mainly powerfist sang guard with unleash rage, savage echoes and savage echoes rocks face! they helped slam their way through broadsides and punched a ton of attacks onto the riptide. Canticle of hate with a no LOS charge is how I broke my way into the tau castle fyi. Trap n wrapping  a firewarrior squad with DC kept both my characters and SG untouched. I was winning the mission and would have ended with a big win.

 

All in all I'm looking at testing out a "Golden Wind" list that focuses on two SG bombs, as 2+/5+++/Transhuman is bonkers tough and touched with the Sanguinor/mass of doom/unleash rage, power fists can slam through anything!

[The Unseen]

So, the Big Guns strat might make land speeders half decent.

Works on the whole unit, and you can pack a lot of dakka on 3 land speeders that can deliver itself pretty well.

[Morticon]

Nice catch, Unseen. 

[Vermintide]

So I've been out of the game with Real Life for a little while (moving house and such), but my general impression is that while we have a couple of neat new toys in our box, from the general buffing of Doctrines and Red Thirst... This army still plays far too rigidly.

Other armies have options, they have flexibility. Blood Angels weakness is that an opponent can take one look at your list and know exactly what you're going to try and do with each part of it. In regards to the conversation about YouTubers earlier, I don't think any of them are necessarily bad at handling Blood Angels*, it's just that they are often up against extremely experienced opponents. Those opponents can easily counter an army like ours, I think.

But that's just my two penneth as a casual, mostly. I'm still slightly salty about the thing with Chaplain litanies not working out of deep strike. It just straight up denies so many cool synergies and tactical flexibility which would have been perfect for us.

* there are a couple who I deem unworthy, but I won't name names ;)

[Dont-Be-Haten]

So I've been out of the game with Real Life for a little while (moving house and such), but my general impression is that while we have a couple of neat new toys in our box, from the general buffing of Doctrines and Red Thirst... This army still plays far too rigidly.

 

Other armies have options, they have flexibility. Blood Angels weakness is that an opponent can take one look at your list and know exactly what you're going to try and do with each part of it. In regards to the conversation about YouTubers earlier, I don't think any of them are necessarily bad at handling Blood Angels*, it's just that they are often up against extremely experienced opponents. Those opponents can easily counter an army like ours, I think.

 

But that's just my two penneth as a casual, mostly. I'm still slightly salty about the thing with Chaplain litanies not working out of deep strike. It just straight up denies so many cool synergies and tactical flexibility which would have been perfect for us.

 

* there are a couple who I deem unworthy, but I won't name names

Bones from Table Top Tactics just sent 13 death company up the board with forlorn fury to try and kill 2 wave serpants a squad of dark reapers and a unit of banshees with Jain Zhar. He positioned his preds to only be able to fire at a single target which was promptly hit with lightening fast reflexes for a -2 to hit modifier and then proceeded to lose his only melee portion of the army. And instead of moving to the tactical doctrine for his loads of scouts and tacticals he stayed in devastator which essentially did nothing for him since he didn't move any of his preds, he also took 4 assbacks that basically did nothing all game.

I don't even want to talk about his mismanagement of the smash captain, which he made his warlord instead of his footie captain or lieutenant which were sitting next to his parking lot. Giving up Warlord on a turn he didn't have to was pretty crucial as well as several of his other blunders. Now I will admit he had some  rolls that were clutch for his opponent.  But then again he also blundered his libby dread just to get off 1 unleash rage instead of actually using the dreadnought to help fire those hemlocks. It was really hard to watch him crash that handsomely painted army for sure.  

 

But then again he also just wasting a lot of the synergies of his army, and ended up just about tabled in turn 5 before he conceded. 

 

His list didn't look terrible either.  

Blood Angels ++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Blood Angels)

++ **CHAPTER**: Blood Angels

 

+ HQ +

Captain: Jump Pack, Storm shield, The Angel's Wing (replaces jump pack), Thunder hammer, Warlord

Lemartes: 3. Exhortation of Rage, 4. Mantra of Strength, Invocation of Destruction, Litanies of Hate

 

+ Troops +

Scout Squad 4x Scout: Combat knife Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combat knife

Scout Squad 4x Scout: Combat knife Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combat knife

Scout Squad 4x Scout: Combat knife Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combat knife

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Blood Angels)

++ **CHAPTER**: Blood Angels

+ HQ + Captain: Master-crafted boltgun, Power sword, The Veritas Vitae

Librarian Dreadnought: 2. Unleash Rage, 6. Wings of Sanguinus, Furioso fist, Storm bolter

+ Troops +

Tactical Squad 3x Space Marine Space Marine (Heavy weapon): Heavy flamer Space Marine Sergeant Bolt pistol and boltgun

Tactical Squad 3x Space Marine Space Marine (Heavy weapon): Heavy flamer Space Marine Sergeant Bolt pistol and boltgun

Tactical Squad 3x Space Marine Space Marine (Heavy weapon): Heavy flamer Space Marine Sergeant Bolt pistol and boltgun

+ Elites +

Death Company: Jump Packs

9x Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword

4x Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer

 

+ Dedicated Transport +

Razorback: Storm bolter, Twin assault cannon

Razorback: Storm bolter, Twin assault cannon

Razorback: Storm bolter, Twin assault cannon

 

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Blood Angels)

++ **CHAPTER**: Blood Angels

+ HQ +

 

Lieutenants Lieutenant: Chainsword, Master-crafted boltgun

 

+ Heavy Support +

Predator: Predator autocannon  Two heavy bolters: 2x Heavy bolter 

Predator: Predator autocannon  Two heavy bolters: 2x Heavy bolter 

Predator: Predator autocannon  Two heavy bolters: 2x Heavy bolter 

 

++ Total: [127 PL, 1,997pts] ++

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 26, 2019 by Dont-Be-Haten

[SnorriSnorrison]

 

So I've been out of the game with Real Life for a little while (moving house and such), but my general impression is that while we have a couple of neat new toys in our box, from the general buffing of Doctrines and Red Thirst... This army still plays far too rigidly.

Other armies have options, they have flexibility. Blood Angels weakness is that an opponent can take one look at your list and know exactly what you're going to try and do with each part of it. In regards to the conversation about YouTubers earlier, I don't think any of them are necessarily bad at handling Blood Angels*, it's just that they are often up against extremely experienced opponents. Those opponents can easily counter an army like ours, I think.

But that's just my two penneth as a casual, mostly. I'm still slightly salty about the thing with Chaplain litanies not working out of deep strike. It just straight up denies so many cool synergies and tactical flexibility which would have been perfect for us.* there are a couple who I deem unworthy, but I won't name names ;)

 

Bones from Table Top Tactics just sent 13 death company up the board with forlorn fury to try and kill 2 wave serpants a squad of dark reapers and a unit of banshees with Jain Zhar. He positioned his preds to only be able to fire at a single target which was promptly hit with lightening fast reflexes for a -2 to hit modifier and then proceeded to lose his only melee portion of the army. And instead of moving to the tactical doctrine for his loads of scouts and tacticals he stayed in devastator which essentially did nothing for him since he didn't move any of his preds, he also took 4 assbacks that basically did nothing all game.

 

I don't even want to talk about his mismanagement of the smash captain, which he made his warlord instead of his footie captain or lieutenant which were sitting next to his parking lot. Giving up Warlord on a turn he didn't have to was pretty crucial as well as several of his other blunders. Now I will admit he had some :cuss rolls that were clutch for his opponent. 

But then again he also just wasting a lot of the synergies of his army, and ended up just about tabled in turn 5 before he conceded.

I saw that. He forgot about Lemartes’ ability and used a litany to re-roll hits, which he allows DC to do innately. After turn 2, that was a red SM army since all the BA synergy units were dead. Painful to watch as a BA player, and gives a lot of people the wrong idea about the army.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

 

 

So I've been out of the game with Real Life for a little while (moving house and such), but my general impression is that while we have a couple of neat new toys in our box, from the general buffing of Doctrines and Red Thirst... This army still plays far too rigidly.

Other armies have options, they have flexibility. Blood Angels weakness is that an opponent can take one look at your list and know exactly what you're going to try and do with each part of it. In regards to the conversation about YouTubers earlier, I don't think any of them are necessarily bad at handling Blood Angels*, it's just that they are often up against extremely experienced opponents. Those opponents can easily counter an army like ours, I think.

But that's just my two penneth as a casual, mostly. I'm still slightly salty about the thing with Chaplain litanies not working out of deep strike. It just straight up denies so many cool synergies and tactical flexibility which would have been perfect for us.* there are a couple who I deem unworthy, but I won't name names

Bones from Table Top Tactics just sent 13 death company up the board with forlorn fury to try and kill 2 wave serpants a squad of dark reapers and a unit of banshees with Jain Zhar. He positioned his preds to only be able to fire at a single target which was promptly hit with lightening fast reflexes for a -2 to hit modifier and then proceeded to lose his only melee portion of the army. And instead of moving to the tactical doctrine for his loads of scouts and tacticals he stayed in devastator which essentially did nothing for him since he didn't move any of his preds, he also took 4 assbacks that basically did nothing all game.

 

I don't even want to talk about his mismanagement of the smash captain, which he made his warlord instead of his footie captain or lieutenant which were sitting next to his parking lot. Giving up Warlord on a turn he didn't have to was pretty crucial as well as several of his other blunders. Now I will admit he had some  rolls that were clutch for his opponent. 

But then again he also just wasting a lot of the synergies of his army, and ended up just about tabled in turn 5 before he conceded.

I saw that. He forgot about Lemartes’ ability and used a litany to re-roll hits, which he allows DC to do innately. After turn 2, that was a red SM army since all the BA synergy units were dead. Painful to watch as a BA player, and gives a lot of people the wrong idea about the army.

 

I yelled at my laptop again when he did that instead of canticles... 

 

Oh well.

[Vermintide]

 

 

So I've been out of the game with Real Life for a little while (moving house and such), but my general impression is that while we have a couple of neat new toys in our box, from the general buffing of Doctrines and Red Thirst... This army still plays far too rigidly.

 

Other armies have options, they have flexibility. Blood Angels weakness is that an opponent can take one look at your list and know exactly what you're going to try and do with each part of it. In regards to the conversation about YouTubers earlier, I don't think any of them are necessarily bad at handling Blood Angels*, it's just that they are often up against extremely experienced opponents. Those opponents can easily counter an army like ours, I think.

 

But that's just my two penneth as a casual, mostly. I'm still slightly salty about the thing with Chaplain litanies not working out of deep strike. It just straight up denies so many cool synergies and tactical flexibility which would have been perfect for us.

 

* there are a couple who I deem unworthy, but I won't name names

Bones from Table Top Tactics just sent 13 death company up the board with forlorn fury to try and kill 2 wave serpants a squad of dark reapers and a unit of banshees with Jain Zhar. He positioned his preds to only be able to fire at a single target which was promptly hit with lightening fast reflexes for a -2 to hit modifier and then proceeded to lose his only melee portion of the army. And instead of moving to the tactical doctrine for his loads of scouts and tacticals he stayed in devastator which essentially did nothing for him since he didn't move any of his preds, he also took 4 assbacks that basically did nothing all game.

I don't even want to talk about his mismanagement of the smash captain, which he made his warlord instead of his footie captain or lieutenant which were sitting next to his parking lot. Giving up Warlord on a turn he didn't have to was pretty crucial as well as several of his other blunders. Now I will admit he had some rolls that were clutch for his opponent. But then again he also blundered his libby dread just to get off 1 unleash rage instead of actually using the dreadnought to help fire those hemlocks. It was really hard to watch him crash that handsomely painted army for sure.

 

But then again he also just wasting a lot of the synergies of his army, and ended up just about tabled in turn 5 before he conceded.

 

His list didn't look terrible either.

Blood Angels ++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Blood Angels)

++ **CHAPTER**: Blood Angels

 

+ HQ +

Captain: Jump Pack, Storm shield, The Angel's Wing (replaces jump pack), Thunder hammer, Warlord

Lemartes: 3. Exhortation of Rage, 4. Mantra of Strength, Invocation of Destruction, Litanies of Hate

 

+ Troops +

Scout Squad 4x Scout: Combat knife Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combat knife

Scout Squad 4x Scout: Combat knife Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combat knife

Scout Squad 4x Scout: Combat knife Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combat knife

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Blood Angels)

++ **CHAPTER**: Blood Angels

+ HQ + Captain: Master-crafted boltgun, Power sword, The Veritas Vitae

Librarian Dreadnought: 2. Unleash Rage, 6. Wings of Sanguinus, Furioso fist, Storm bolter

+ Troops +

Tactical Squad 3x Space Marine Space Marine (Heavy weapon): Heavy flamer Space Marine Sergeant Bolt pistol and boltgun

Tactical Squad 3x Space Marine Space Marine (Heavy weapon): Heavy flamer Space Marine Sergeant Bolt pistol and boltgun

Tactical Squad 3x Space Marine Space Marine (Heavy weapon): Heavy flamer Space Marine Sergeant Bolt pistol and boltgun

+ Elites +

Death Company: Jump Packs

9x Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword

4x Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer

 

+ Dedicated Transport +

Razorback: Storm bolter, Twin assault cannon

Razorback: Storm bolter, Twin assault cannon

Razorback: Storm bolter, Twin assault cannon

 

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Blood Angels)

++ **CHAPTER**: Blood Angels

+ HQ +

 

Lieutenants Lieutenant: Chainsword, Master-crafted boltgun

 

+ Heavy Support +

Predator: Predator autocannon Two heavy bolters: 2x Heavy bolter

Predator: Predator autocannon Two heavy bolters: 2x Heavy bolter

Predator: Predator autocannon Two heavy bolters: 2x Heavy bolter

 

++ Total: [127 PL, 1,997pts] ++

 

Weeeeell funny enough that was one of the names I didn't want to name. I think the TT guys are great when they're in their comfort zone, but you can tell their comfort zone is cheesy "competitive" tourney lists with parking lots that just rely on huge weight of dice.

 

I mean did you see When Chef took the BA for a spin a while back? Travesty. I'm no fan of that guy's personality either though, to be fair, so I'm pretty biased there.

 

There are however plenty of channels where I think the BA give a good account of themselves. They're just usually up against armies that force their hand. I keep seeing situations where sure, it's a waste to throw their DC blob into three wave serpents, but realistically there's little other choice.

 

Chewie on SEO is always good I think, even if he doesn't always win. SS72 is competent at actually playing the army, but his list choices are always garbage character spam.

 

Anyway, this is veering off topic I think. Apologies.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

 

 

So I've been out of the game with Real Life for a little while (moving house and such), but my general impression is that while we have a couple of neat new toys in our box, from the general buffing of Doctrines and Red Thirst... This army still plays far too rigidly.

 

Other armies have options, they have flexibility. Blood Angels weakness is that an opponent can take one look at your list and know exactly what you're going to try and do with each part of it. In regards to the conversation about YouTubers earlier, I don't think any of them are necessarily bad at handling Blood Angels*, it's just that they are often up against extremely experienced opponents. Those opponents can easily counter an army like ours, I think.

 

But that's just my two penneth as a casual, mostly. I'm still slightly salty about the thing with Chaplain litanies not working out of deep strike. It just straight up denies so many cool synergies and tactical flexibility which would have been perfect for us.

 

* there are a couple who I deem unworthy, but I won't name names

Bones from Table Top Tactics just sent 13 death company up the board with forlorn fury to try and kill 2 wave serpants a squad of dark reapers and a unit of banshees with Jain Zhar. He positioned his preds to only be able to fire at a single target which was promptly hit with lightening fast reflexes for a -2 to hit modifier and then proceeded to lose his only melee portion of the army. And instead of moving to the tactical doctrine for his loads of scouts and tacticals he stayed in devastator which essentially did nothing for him since he didn't move any of his preds, he also took 4 assbacks that basically did nothing all game.

I don't even want to talk about his mismanagement of the smash captain, which he made his warlord instead of his footie captain or lieutenant which were sitting next to his parking lot. Giving up Warlord on a turn he didn't have to was pretty crucial as well as several of his other blunders. Now I will admit he had some rolls that were clutch for his opponent. But then again he also blundered his libby dread just to get off 1 unleash rage instead of actually using the dreadnought to help fire those hemlocks. It was really hard to watch him crash that handsomely painted army for sure.

 

But then again he also just wasting a lot of the synergies of his army, and ended up just about tabled in turn 5 before he conceded.

 

His list didn't look terrible either.

Blood Angels ++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Blood Angels)

++ **CHAPTER**: Blood Angels

 

+ HQ +

Captain: Jump Pack, Storm shield, The Angel's Wing (replaces jump pack), Thunder hammer, Warlord

Lemartes: 3. Exhortation of Rage, 4. Mantra of Strength, Invocation of Destruction, Litanies of Hate

 

+ Troops +

Scout Squad 4x Scout: Combat knife Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combat knife

Scout Squad 4x Scout: Combat knife Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combat knife

Scout Squad 4x Scout: Combat knife Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combat knife

 

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Blood Angels)

++ **CHAPTER**: Blood Angels

+ HQ + Captain: Master-crafted boltgun, Power sword, The Veritas Vitae

Librarian Dreadnought: 2. Unleash Rage, 6. Wings of Sanguinus, Furioso fist, Storm bolter

+ Troops +

Tactical Squad 3x Space Marine Space Marine (Heavy weapon): Heavy flamer Space Marine Sergeant Bolt pistol and boltgun

Tactical Squad 3x Space Marine Space Marine (Heavy weapon): Heavy flamer Space Marine Sergeant Bolt pistol and boltgun

Tactical Squad 3x Space Marine Space Marine (Heavy weapon): Heavy flamer Space Marine Sergeant Bolt pistol and boltgun

+ Elites +

Death Company: Jump Packs

9x Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Chainsword

4x Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer

 

+ Dedicated Transport +

Razorback: Storm bolter, Twin assault cannon

Razorback: Storm bolter, Twin assault cannon

Razorback: Storm bolter, Twin assault cannon

 

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Blood Angels)

++ **CHAPTER**: Blood Angels

+ HQ +

 

Lieutenants Lieutenant: Chainsword, Master-crafted boltgun

 

+ Heavy Support +

Predator: Predator autocannon Two heavy bolters: 2x Heavy bolter

Predator: Predator autocannon Two heavy bolters: 2x Heavy bolter

Predator: Predator autocannon Two heavy bolters: 2x Heavy bolter

 

++ Total: [127 PL, 1,997pts] ++

 

Weeeeell funny enough that was one of the names I didn't want to name. I think the TT guys are great when they're in their comfort zone, but you can tell their comfort zone is cheesy "competitive" tourney lists with parking lots that just rely on huge weight of dice.

 

I mean did you see When Chef took the BA for a spin a while back? Travesty. I'm no fan of that guy's personality either though, to be fair, so I'm pretty biased there.

 

There are however plenty of channels where I think the BA give a good account of themselves. They're just usually up against armies that force their hand. I keep seeing situations where sure, it's a waste to throw their DC blob into three wave serpents, but realistically there's little other choice.

 

Chewie on SEO is always good I think, even if he doesn't always win. SS72 is competent at actually playing the army, but his list choices are always garbage character spam.

 

Anyway, this is veering off topic I think. Apologies.

 

Well more or less what we are doing here is tactics in the sense that we watch videos etc. to study how the armies are played correctly, and we haven't seen that yet. I sort of equate it to a lesser extent of re-watching old chess matches and breaking them down of what could have happened versus what actually happened. Another might be watching Magnus Carlsen plays speed chess.

 

These are completely different beasts in and of themselves. However; being able to compare how situations occur and what should happen versus what does is a good show case into future tactics of how to play versus how not to play Blood Angels. Unfortunately a large amount of BA players on youtube pretty much suck with the army.

[Indefragable]

I think any Faction that has a bent in a particular direction can be hard countered....by it's nature, being heavily invested in any one thing makes you disproportionately susceptible to that one thing going wrong. Just look at Tau.

 

It also pays off huge when that one things goes right, and to me, that's up to the general. There will always be bad matchups and bad board setups and DZ's and superior opponents, but Caesar got out of Pharsalus and so on.

 

That's why to me, the balance of playing BA is (and always has been/will be?) knowing when to go "red marines" and when to go "loyal world eaters" and sometimes that can change throughout the course of the battle. I also think it's why things like not Deep Striking units can be so effective, since opponents will often overcompensate with protecting against DS'ing (like they're playing GSC or something), only for you to run/jump/drive up the board and overpower his front.

 

It oversimplifies things a bit too much, but BA are a finesse army: regardless of matchup you have to use yer noggin' with them, while a lot of other armies that seem "good" are often much simpler (build wall, shoot, win) in concept in comparison.

Edited December 26, 2019 by Indefragable

[Neuralshock]

As far as rigidity is concerned I can understand where that might come from. I like to think that BA operates deceptively simple. You want to punch things, hard.

 

The secret sauce is what flavor of punchiness do you want? There's the gotta go fast jump pack rush, a testudo transport push, hero hammer or some mix in-between all of them. The second element that I think gets overlooked is optimally moving units to set up t2 charges. I see and have been guilty of using UWoF as a 2cp crutch to get my auras where they need to go when careful planning would have achieved the same or better goal