Doctrines & BA

[Charlo]

So while everyone is very Happy for the arguably more interesting rules from Blood of Baal... I figured it may be worth starting a topic on Doctrines as there is a decent amount to discuss!

 

While we *want* to be in Assault Doctrine, it won't be until turn 3, so I think a successful Blood Angel list will plan for the Devastator and Tactical doctrines too.

 

A quick recap on Doctrines:

Hidden Content

+ Devastator Doctrine: -1AP on Heavy & Grenade Weapons

+ Tactical Doctrine: -1AP on Rapid Fire & Assault Weapons

+ Assault Doctrine: -1AP on Close Combat & Pistol Weapons, plus an additional Attack for Blood Angels

 

So one unit that jumps out at me is the Baal Predator. In either Dakka of Fire configuration it puts out a shocking amount of AP2 firepower in Devastator Doctrine and is fast enough to bring the Flamers to bear (especially if going second for example). Dante works great with a few of these as he can keep up and provide re-rolls. The Dakka this thing puts out also has great synergy in clearing screens for our turn one Alpha strike from drop pods and other forward deployment options.

 

Second on my mind is the Invictor Warsuit. It's aggressive and has some solid shooting turn one with Dev Doctrine as well. Maybe sketchy in the accuracy department but you can bring a Phobos captain with them if need be, or even UWoF Dante up?

 

Anyone else for any good units to take advantage of Doctrines while we wait for the vital turn 3?

[Xenith]

Anything with mass shots, really. TL Assbacks will be fun, heavy bolters with AP-2 outright ignore 5+ saves. I'm looking forward to seeing what my stormhawk can do. 

 

Suppressors are in a weird place as they have -1AP turn 1, so can suppress for a t1 charge, but we dont want that. Their flat D2 is still great though. 

 

Increasing casualties from bolt weapons by 17% will always be worthwhile. Assault bolters, hurricane bolters, etc. 

[Panzer]

The Doctrines are arguably the best thing about BoB together with the +1 to charge rolls imo.

 

 

I'll be talking about only Primaris because that'st he army I'm using.

 

In the Devastator Doctrine my Redemptor Dread will have AP-2 on his gatlings, same with my Repulsor on his gatlings and heavy bolters, my Eliminators AP-3 on their Snipers, my Suppressors AP-3 (which means they basically have Plasma with -1 strength but at 48" range!) and even my Intercessors will shoot their Krak grenade at 30" with AP-2. If I were to use the Invictor Warsuit it would have an AP-2 Heavy flamer as well even.

It gives us a nice damage boost for some of our units that can apply pressure early on. Perfect.

I don't really think it's worth to take Stalker Intercessors or Heavy Hellblasters though (actually Hellblasters with their AP-4 don't really benefit from any doctrine except for the Assault one in case a miracle happens and they survive till turn 3 AND get into melee).

 

Then in the Tactical Doctrine the obvious winners are all the Battleline units with their various Bolters, however the Bolter Inceptors benefit from getting AP-2 Assault bolters too and you could even drop Reivers with now AP-1 Bolt carbines. Aggressors will love this doctrine too on their way into melee with now either AP-1 flamers or AP-1 bolters. As if they weren't doing enough damage as is already. Last but not least the Repulsor again with his dozens of stormbolters and equivalents will benefit in this Doctrine too.

 

The Assault Doctrine is our gem and potentially the one thing that will split the BA playerbase in the way they are going to play their army. Will you hold back and make a big splash turn 3, or will you put on pressure early and use the Assault Doctrine to keep the momentum? Both approaches are equally tempting.

Another interesting unit for the Assault Doctrine are Reivers (again) with combat blades and pistols. The combat blades are obvious and give them the same amount of attacks as DC Intercessors and Veteran Intercessors just for less points but also no big melee weapon like a Thunderhammer or such (but the ability to deep strike in return), however people tend to overlook the not so humble Heavy bolt pistol. Already at AP-1 and 12" it's a great weapon but in the Assault Doctrine they get pushed to AP-2! In combination with their now AP-1 Combat blades and another additional attack that's pretty damn strong for the cheapest Primaris unit available. I was thinking about doing a 1-2 punch with Carbine Reivers, however the Heavy bolt pistol on top of the combat blades and our super doctrine might convince me to keep using melee Reivers. Just ... make sure not to shoot the unit you are about to charge or else you'll probably shoot yourself out of range. 

Edited December 4, 2019 by sfPanzer

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

Baal Preds all day!

Making them better during two turns is nothing to scoff at.

Placement and movement will be really important, probably dedicating a captain to them would be necessary to take advantage of these doctrines on turn 1 especially. Which is a bit of an investment but could prove beneficial.

[BluejayJunior]

Tactical Doctrine is easy to take advantage of. Most lists will likely be taking some sort of troops with some type of bolter. Rapid fire and assault weapons are plentiful and used by most troops. 

 

Taking advantage of the Devastator doctrine requires a little more thought. Auxiliary grenade launchers on Intercessors will be nice since the doctrine affects grenades too. I was thinking of playing with a couple of Redemptors and Invictors. Anything with assault cannons will be great. Was also thinking about playing with some tactical squads with heavy bolters or missile launchers. Eliminators will be improved first turn, too. 

 

I think making a firebase with a few units with heavy weapons to stand still first turn is a good strategy. While moving up your troops and assault units to get into position for later turns. 

[SnorriSnorrison]

I’ve doubled up on some TL AssBacks and another tactical squad to split into 2s when assembling.

I’d love to use my Baals again, but the extra 40 points over the RB don’t seem worth the investment. Iconic tanks they are for certain, but they needed a points drop like yesterday.

 

My devastators will greatly benefit from the doctrines. AP-4 lascannons are no joke with the accuracy of Dev squads, and my predator will have a better time taking on big targets with a 3+ save.

 

Finally, tactical squads are a lot less of a liability now when it comes to Bolter firepower. AP -1 helps them out quite a lot, and with the point drop we’ve more reason than ever to take them.

 

I’ll play it more safely for certain. If at all, I’ll be sending a squad of DC into something nasty and take it out. My actual all-out charge will probably be on turn 2 from deepstrike, when the chaff has been cleared off. Turn 3 is the bonus round to mop up what’s left from objectives with tactical squads jumping out of Razorbacks, and coordinate charges with the remains of my assault units. I’ll use terminators more often now, and Vanguard Veterans.

 

Makes ya feel a bit more like a Codex Marine, but it also takes me back to the story from the 3 Ed. Codex.

[Blindhamster]

Yeah. I think it was intentional to make us play a bit more classic marine style - lore wise, that's exactly what we do. We use our tools to soften up the foe before charging in. We arent berserk world eaters struggling at the chain (even death company seem to get portrayed with slightly more composure in the books, they think they're sanguinius, they dont think they're angron)

[RedemptionNL]

Tactical Doctrine is also pretty nice for Sanguinary Guard's Angelus boltguns, especially when you're re-rollings hits and wounds with their new stratagem.

 

Close or deep strike 'em in during Tactical Doctrine and blast away, switch to Assault Doctrine and head into melee.

[Blindhamster]

I plan to use eliminators for the heavy part for sure. Their option to go +1 to hit and wound with the extra AP of dev doctrine makes bolter ones even more appealing honestly.

 

I'm going to use a couple of impulsors with vet/dc intercessors as a later game secondary assault force. The impulsors 4++ and mobility should make keeping them alive easier. Particularly with some incursors up front to act as interference.

[Xenith]

Do most folks use a smash captain like a guided missile and point him directly at the biggest threat, or will it be worthwhile keeping him near a firebase for protection and to maximise the ap bonus on heavy weapons T1 before moving him upfield or redeploying via UWoF?

Edited December 4, 2019 by Xenith

[Blindhamster]

Do most folks use a smash captain like a guided missile and point him directly at the biggest threat, or will it be worthwhile keeping him near a firebase for protection and to maximise the ap bonus on heavy weapons T1 before moving him upfield or redeploying via UWoF?

I dont use smash captains (boring) but if I did, I'd charge the biggest thing I could.

[Panzer]

Do most folks use a smash captain like a guided missile and point him directly at the biggest threat, or will it be worthwhile keeping him near a firebase for protection and to maximise the ap bonus on heavy weapons T1 before moving him upfield or redeploying via UWoF?

I usually keep in in the middle of my guys until a juicy target is in easy charge range and/or I've opened up a gap in the screening for him to jump there.

[Charlo]

Wow, good responce guys! Awesome!

 

The humble Stormraven Gunship is another I thought of.

 

Turn one it's got the same firepower as a Baal Pred (twin HB & AC) plus some excellent Missiles (S8 AP-4 Flat 3 Dmg!) and given Hurricanes can really let it fly turn two once it's cargo has presumably gotten out and it's free to roam!

 

A DC Dread and Bolter DC with perhaps a Librarian makes this a great little package (or a Libby Dread?!)

[keeblerartillery]

With the addition of doctrines (and the increased point cost of a gallant) I think my fire raptor is about to come out of the box again - ALL of its weapons get -1 AP T1. *laughs in dakka*

 

All hail the return of BA flyer supremacy!

[BluejayJunior]

Do most folks use a smash captain like a guided missile and point him directly at the biggest threat, or will it be worthwhile keeping him near a firebase for protection and to maximise the ap bonus on heavy weapons T1 before moving him upfield or redeploying via UWoF?

I've been running a smash captain and a terminator captain for this reason. Use the smash captain wherever he is necessary and keep a captain (and a LT) around a mobile firebase for the re rolls. 

[Matarno - Lord of Skyfall]

Don't forget our normal Predator's utilizing Killshot in turn 1 Dev Doctrine. Not losing Killshot, while getting the addition of doctrines is arguably one of the most under-rated wins with BoB. Baal Preds benefit greatly as well, but that Predator Autocannon is now looking incredible with Killshot and Dev Doctrine. The tri-las Pred also becomes a monster at wiping out something big and juicy in turn one.

[Panzer]

Killshot is still a trap imo. I don't know anyone who would leave a Predator alive if there are three of them on the board.

[BluejayJunior]

Agreed. Killshot is awesome...when you can go first. If the opponent goes first and can take out one of the predators, then your strategy is completely unusable. It's too all or nothing in my opinion. 

[SanguiniusJr]

So I think I'm going to sub out my smash captain and bring Dante. Dante will allow for maximum efficiency for devastator and assault doctrines. Load up a Repulsor with intercessors & mephy, tail it with a Repulsor executioner, and blast away. Or sub repulsor for a Leviathan, duty eternal is **AMAZING** I don't think it's a bad idea staying in devastator if my opponent can't kill my big guns. Is it less fluffy sure, but I'll get to assault doctrine anyways!!

 

Sang guard and ancient come to clean up mess and create a new front.

 

Also let's not forget that recitation of focus litany gives plus one to hit ballistic skill- I think this is fantastic with Dante and rerolls ( also justifies a cap). My best success has come from shooty with assault rather than pure assault. I'm totally Auto including astaroth for everything he brings with chap buffs for 105..

Edited December 4, 2019 by SanguiniusJr

[H311fi5h]

I'm gonna try the Land Raider Prometheus for my firebase. Perfekt for clearing screens quickly while saving a bunch of command points through the first couple of turns. It's also perfect for buffing with Astorath, hitting and wounding troups on 2's. Then he and the warlord can join the party turn 3+ when all chaff is gone and chop everything left standing. Edited December 4, 2019 by H311fi5h

[Djangomatic82]

I have been reconsidering max tactical squads again because of the doctrines. Run 3x 10 man Tacs with all Lascannon, Combi-Melta and Melta. Add a bare bones captain and lieutenant. Combat squad the Tacs, throw all of the Heavy and Special weapons in the same groups and put those, with the cap and lieutenant, into 2x Drop Pods and you have a decent Semi-Dev squad for the same price as 3x lascannon squads, that cannot be interacted with turn 1 if you go second.

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

Has anyone thought of just never switching away from Devastator? I mean -4 lascanons?

[Indefragable]

Wow, good responce guys! Awesome!

 

The humble Stormraven Gunship is another I thought of.

 

Turn one it's got the same firepower as a Baal Pred (twin HB & AC) plus some excellent Missiles (S8 AP-4 Flat 3 Dmg!) and given Hurricanes can really let it fly turn two once it's cargo has presumably gotten out and it's free to roam!

 

A DC Dread and Bolter DC with perhaps a Librarian makes this a great little package (or a Libby Dread?!)

 

^this

 

Don't forget our normal Predator's utilizing Killshot in turn 1 Dev Doctrine. Not losing Killshot, while getting the addition of doctrines is arguably one of the most under-rated wins with BoB. Baal Preds benefit greatly as well, but that Predator Autocannon is now looking incredible with Killshot and Dev Doctrine. The tri-las Pred also becomes a monster at wiping out something big and juicy in turn one.

 

^and double on this. Predator Autocannons with 2D3 shots at 48" AP-2 and flat 4 damage is bonkers.

 

Yes, knocking out a Predator unravels the Killshot Strategem, but A. it's up to the commander to position things to lessen the liklihood of that happening (there's the Strategem that negates penalties for firing Heavy weapons on a vehicle that moved) B. worst case scenario, you then have 2D3 48" S7 AP-2 flat 3 damage shots to throw at things. Pred autocannons are still one of the best guns in the game.

 

*************

 

For me, I'm not going crazy rearranging my entire army to make use of Doctrines, they are a great bonus, but a bonus to my core strategies. Dev doctrine is basically a wash with Concealed Positions in a lot of cases, so it's nice, but I don't think it's going to be this magic wand. Likewise, I hazard against holding off melee units until T3. Never forget the ABC's of Sanguinius: Always Be Chargin'. If two BA armies go up against each other, I would put my money on the one that prioritizes aggressive melee over standing back and shooting the whole time. Yes, we have some shooty builds, and yes Doctrines makes our shooting better, but nearly all of our bonuses still apply to melee and so in a 1:1 fight we are typically outgunned. Something a good general can overcome, but don't forget that Doctrines apply to the MEQ environment as well right now...so many enemies may charge us in T3...I still want to be locked up with them before that, with T3+ just being gravy/making up for casualties.

[Blindhamster]

Has anyone thought of just never switching away from Devastator? I mean -4 lascanons?

Probably better to play a different army -imperial fists and iron hands do devastator doctrine better

[Karhedron]

The humble Stormraven Gunship is another I thought of.

 

Turn one it's got the same firepower as a Baal Pred (twin HB & AC) plus some excellent Missiles (S8 AP-4 Flat 3 Dmg!) and given Hurricanes can really let it fly turn two once it's cargo has presumably gotten out and it's free to roam!

 

A DC Dread and Bolter DC with perhaps a Librarian makes this a great little package (or a Libby Dread?!)

Agreed. I am taking a second look at Storm Talons. I know everyone loves Stormhawks but the Talon looks like it got a price cut in CA19 and so did the Typhoon Missile Launcher. With its +1 to-Hit vs ground targets, it brings a lot of dakka quite cheaply.