Replacing my NL Bike Lord / NL 500 points in pyramid league

[Doom Herald]

Since Index units are being phased out, I need to find a new HQ for my 500 pt NL army. I'm currently running two 5-man squads of stock CSM, a 5-man Bike squad with chainswords and a second combi-bolter on the champion, and a Venomcrawler. With the point changes and the need for a new HQ, I was thinking of dropping the Venomcrawler and taking a third unit of CSM, probably with plasma, and giving a chain cannon to the other two (I only physicaly have 2 cannons at present).

 

Now, back to the HQ...

I was considering a Jump Lord with the +d3/+d6 attacks talons relic and flames of spite. Then taking either 2 chainswords or 2 lightning claws. With the chainswords, I'll be looking at 5+d6 attacks with the talons profile +2 chainsword attacks on the charge.

 

For 10 points more I can take the lightning claws for better AP, but less strength, and re-roll failed wounds. I'll also get one less attack with them, but a better weapon profile so I'll be looking at 6 lightning claw attacks +d6 with talons.

 

Chainswords will offer 1 more chance to get flames of spite and are cheaper. Lightning claws are better AP but are less attacks and more points. Finally, lightning claws do have the re-roll failed wounds, but for flames of spite, that will mostly matter with higher toughness targets.

 

The other thing I was considering was the same setup but on a Daemon Prince with malefic talons. On the charge, I'll be looking at 8 malefic talons attacks +d6 with the relic. No re-rolls though. The Prince is a pretty solid chunk of points more expensive also.

The Lord will have the advantage of deep strike, but the Prince might be able to utilize warp time. Still, if I don't go first, my Prince might be open for a lot of shooting.

 

Though I'm mostly considering the HQ change, general thoughts on what I can do for the army are welcome.

Edited December 14, 2019 by Doom Herald

[helterskelter]

My current trial Lord build is jump pack, thunder hammer, d3 extra attacks WT, and the chain relic. Paired with a death hex/prescience casting jump Sorceror, the idea is to nope saves, and combine with the strats to be as big a pain in the buns as possible

[Aothaine]

A prince is almost always the better option right now. Double Malefic Talons, go Tzeentch and give him that elixir. But at 500 points you need to ask yourself how you want to play. Dropping that DP on the board is close to dropping Bobby G in a 500 point game. It is kind of silly. A JP Chaos Lord with the claws and claw relic seems like a nice alternative though.

 

Just depends on how WAAC you want to be ya know?

[Brom MKIV]

At 500 consider the humble warpsmith with combi bolter for daemon shell. I never aim to take one but then pts get tight and sometimes he makes it in as filler. I've NEVER been disappointed. Makes me wonder why I don't just start building with him.

[Marshal Loss]

I'd go for either a Prince or JP Lord as suggested above. Maneuverability is so important in smaller games, you really want your HQ to be in the right spot(s) at the right time(s), and they'll be able to keep up with the bikes. You could try those new Rapacious Talons on a Jump Lord (or prince)? Allows you to model a Lord with lightning claws and then have a wealth of relic options depending on the game.

 

Double Malefic Talons, go Tzeentch and give him that elixir.

 

I'm guessing you mean Slaanesh for the Elixir, not Tzeentch.

 

Dropping that DP on the board is close to dropping Bobby G in a 500 point game.

It really isn't.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Those phased out rules are now available online in the Legends section (just launched today.) Rules for Bike HQs and Steeds are still around:

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/legends/

Edited December 4, 2019 by Drudge Dreadnought

[MegaVolt87]

You could take a warptime sorc if you need to move things around.

[Doom Herald]

I think I'm leaning towards a Khorne DP with the Malefic Talons and the relic talons. 8 (4 base +3 for dual talons +1 for Khorne DP) Malefic talons attacks (9 on charge) + d3 (d6 on the charge) relic talons attacks. In 500 point meta, it should be able to drop anything in one go. Against a T7, 2+ save model, it will do an average of 10.62 damage, using VotLW, with a potential of 39. If it fails to drop the target, I should be able to finish it with the attack again Khorne strat. I'll run it behind the bikes to get it to where it's going.

 

A Jump Lord with lightning claws and talons only averages 6.81 with flames of spite and VotLW. It also only has a potential output of 24 wounds.

Edited December 5, 2019 by Doom Herald

[Special Officer Doofy]

Daemon prince's do not have the infantry or biker keyword and cannot be targeted with Votlw unfortunately.

[Doom Herald]

Daemon prince's do not have the infantry or biker keyword and cannot be targeted with Votlw unfortunately.

Crap, you're right...

Figures the guy that had to take VotLW in the previous edition can't take it now. Time to re-evaluate the numbers.

 

Edit: Fortunately I already calculated without VotLW.

 

A DP is looking at 7.17 damage in those conditions, much closer to the 6.81 that the Lord with dual lightning claws has with VotLW. Without VotLW, the lord is looking at an average of 4.18 under the same conditions.

 

I still think the prince might be the winner in this condition, though not by as great a margin.

Edited December 5, 2019 by Doom Herald

[Doom Herald]

Those phased out rules are now available online in the Legends section (just launched today.) Rules for Bike HQs and Steeds are still around:

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/legends/

I'll have to ask whether legend will be allowed. The setup has a rule saying no units you need to ask your opponents permission to use. It might fall under that category, but we will see. Edited December 5, 2019 by Doom Herald

[Special Officer Doofy]

"The rules presented here are designed to be definitive, and will only be updated when we change the core mechanics of the game. This means that Legends units are not designed for matched play (as they won’t, for example, have regular points updates)."

 

Got to love that wording. I wonder how tournaments will handle it. If anything as long as they are overcosted I can't see anyone complaining. I know that sounds poopy, but I can see people complaining for power gaming but I can't see people complaining for a crutch.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

At 500 consider the humble warpsmith with combi bolter for daemon shell. I never aim to take one but then pts get tight and sometimes he makes it in as filler. I've NEVER been disappointed. Makes me wonder why I don't just start building with him.

Yeah, dude does a LOT of damage for his point cost in my IW lists. Plus being able to tag along with that Venomcrawler and keep fixing it might actually be relevant in a 500 point game where the kills don't come as quick.

[Doom Herald]

Looking at the Fury of Khorne strat, a DP can't use that either. That makes the comparison a lot closer. I might have to look at the warpsmith after all and see how it goes with the Venomcrawler.

[Doom Herald]

You could try those new Rapacious Talons on a Jump Lord (or prince)? Allows you to model a Lord with lightning claws and then have a wealth of relic options depending on the game.

 

That's actually looking pretty good on a jump lord. Average 6.2 damage without VotLW, and 10.1 with it versus the hypothetical T7 2+ sv unit. I would lose the nuclear option of Fury of Khorne though since I need Slaanesh, and there's the chance I'll get a 1 for the Daemon weapon roll and get screwed. Still, the 13.6 average damage from using 4 CP of strats isn't as good as 10.1 off of 1CP. Edited December 5, 2019 by Doom Herald

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Looking at the Fury of Khorne strat, a DP can't use that either. That makes the comparison a lot closer. I might have to look at the warpsmith after all and see how it goes with the Venomcrawler.

If you need to, you could throw a Combi-Plasma or Melta on him instead of the Combi-Bolter. The BS 2+ can make that worth it.

[Doom Herald]

I think I'm going to go with a Jump Lord [Khorne] with the Khorne daemon weapon and the +d3 attacks on charge warlord trait (though I'm not set on the warlord trait). Average of about 10 wounds with VotLW and option to do it twice. I think I'm going to take a combi-flamer to lend some versatility to infantry killing. Combine with 2 Oblits, 3 5-man CSM squads with 2 reaper chaincannons between them. Devestation battery to get extra obliterator shots off if I go second. I'm considering the warlord trait from Devestation battery instead of the +d3 attacks on charge trait though, just because Landraiders and heavy armor are the one thing that might give me trouble and he can help the oblits shooting attacks and his own attacks with it. I also am considering dropping the 3rd CSM unit for cultists to give a combi-melta to the lord. Edited December 5, 2019 by Doom Herald

[tbone]

I'm looking at using a Chaos Lord with Jump Pack, with the Nurgle Powerfist Daemon Relic and NLs extra attacks WT (upto 8 ap-3 D3 attacks, he has potential to kill just about anything except for a Chaos Knight Tyrant). Plus he is cheap, so you really don't even have to get him in combat to make your opponent have to try to play around him) Plus the Prey on the weak strat can make him fairly reliable and boost his hits to trigger dttfe. (2+ reroll and then 2+ on anything). He seems like a nice cheap option for cleaning up damaged knights, smashing vehicles, or clearing out heavy infantry. Edited December 8, 2019 by tbone

[Captain Incompetence]

I'd personally go with a Mark-of-Khorne Jump Lord with dual lightning claws turned into the Claws of the Black Hunt relic. They're nearly on-par with a Thunder Hammer, but for a quarter of the price. It's also great if you take them along with the Flames of Spite warlord trait.

[Doom Herald]

I ended up giving a Jump Lord with the Flayer relic a try. I also almost completely redid my army.

 

499 points

Night Lords Batalion [Host Raptorial]

Jump Lord (Flayer & Combi-bolter)

Master of Executions

X1 Obliterator

X5 Warp Talons

X5 Bolter Marines

X5 Bolter Marines

X10 Autogun Cultists

 

I had a match against Eldar where I experimented a little. First, I had the Executioner babysitting the Troops, so I made him the Warlord with Curse of the Night Haunter and used a strat to give him the Talisman of Burning Blood so he could advance & charge and re-roll both of those. I tried terrain hopping the Jump Lord, with Flayer and the Host Raptorial trait for 1 CP, into position while deepstriking the Oblit and Warp Talons. I couldn't deep strike all 3 because of the reserve rules. The Lord got taken out at the start of turn 2 by a deepstriking prism, giving the Eldar first blood. He also failed his invulnerable save and the re-roll and the prism rolled a 6 for damage, so luck was against him it seems. The Warp Talons still made it in and brutalized the Eldar before finally falling and the Oblit finished the units in that front off. At this point, we were 2 to 3 on VP, my having killed 2 units, him having killed 2 with the benefit of first blood. Then my remaining units got a little beat up by psychic mortal wounds before I made it into his deployment zone before we rolled to see if everything ended, which would have ended with 3 VP to both of us, but the battle went on. One of my units finally succumbed to the psychic wounds, tipping the scales to 4 VP versus 3 VP and my Executioner wasn't able to make his charge around the corner.

 

Next time I will have to deepstrike the lord, which means the Oblit might get taken out. If he's not deepstriking, the low movement and relatively short range means he's not going to do much. In his place, I can add a couple more Talons and maybe some heavy weapons to the CSM. It seems like the CSM are fairly useless compared to Cultists if they don't have the extra weaponry, so I might switch a unit of Marines out for Cultists (which I hate painting).

Edited December 15, 2019 by Doom Herald

[Iron Father Ferrum]

It's not a legal battalion, you only have two Troop choices.

[Doom Herald]

It's not a legal battalion, you only have two Troop choices.

I had 2 units of Bolter marines @ 5 each. Sorry, I thought I listed both, but I was wrong. Edited

Edited December 15, 2019 by Doom Herald

[MegaVolt87]

I'm looking at using a Chaos Lord with Jump Pack, with the Nurgle Powerfist Daemon Relic and NLs extra attacks WT (upto 8 ap-3 D3 attacks, he has potential to kill just about anything except for a Chaos Knight Tyrant). Plus he is cheap, so you really don't even have to get him in combat to make your opponent have to try to play around him) Plus the Prey on the weak strat can make him fairly reliable and boost his hits to trigger dttfe. (2+ reroll and then 2+ on anything). He seems like a nice cheap option for cleaning up damaged knights, smashing vehicles, or clearing out heavy infantry.

 

Definitely good dmg there, that would be a great pick at 500pts as well. 

[Doom Herald]

Yeah, looking at it, if you use the two +1 to hit strats, prescience, and the host Raptorial re-roll strat with the Nurgle Fist Lord with the +d3 attacks, you average a little under (by a fraction) 24 wounds on a Knight. He's definitely got a spot in my list when heavy units come into play. Since those multiple damage weapons don't bleed extra wounds over into multiple models, the damage 3 may as well be 1 or 2 in the 500 pt meta here.

 

With the light infantry oriented lists right now, Flayer is a little more efficient. If I knock 4 infantry out of a unit and they are making morale as if they had 8 losses (with -1Ld). I'm chewing up their infantry units or their command points. Even against 2 wound models, since Flayer is a D2 weapon, he could knock out 3 Primaris Marines who are now rolling against 6 casualties, at -1 morale.

 

I'm also going to do a winged Nurgle DP with 2 claws, One Piece at a Time warlord trait, and Misery of the Meek. With one piece at a time, he can charge into units, while at -1 to be hit in melee. Miasma of Pestilence will give him another -1 to be hit (ranged and melee). This should keep him in melee unless he destroys a unit, in which case he can hopefully pile in or consolidate into a character or other unit. If he can't, he will still have a -1 to be hit from Miasma. Next turn, he can fall back (12") and charge again into a new target to soften up. Misery of the Meek can heal him in a pinch and/or add offensive power against tougher units. I was also considering a Warp Bolter on him, since its 3 points and he can take shots at units as he falls back since he has FLY.

 

I'm going to keep the Obliterator, but drop the Warp Talons (5 man squads kill their target, but die immediately after). I'm going to deepstrike him with the Lord to get a turn with the re-roll 1s, then just use him as a big gun once the Lord flies after his quarry. I don't know if I'll do NURGLE on the Oblit for the Grandfather's Blessing strat to keep him alive longer, or Slaanesh for Endless Cacophony and more damage output.

 

Then I'm going to have 2 10-man units of Autogun Cultists and 1 5-man unit of Marines with Bolters (Combi-bolter and Chainsword on Champion). I have enough points to either give my DP a Warp Bolter, or my 2 Cultist units each a Heavy Stubber. The Heavy Stubber will add some range, but at BS4 a heavy weapon is probably not reliable. I do know I will get some use out of the Warp Bolter on the other hand.

 

I'm not sure what mark to make the troops, it doesn't seem to matter much. Maybe SLAANESH so that if I'm in a blind and happen to have the CP I can get more shots off.

 

So, my next list will be:

HQ:

>DP w/ Wings [NURGLE][Warlord: One Piece at a Time][Relic: Misery of the Meek]

X2 Malefic Talons

165 points

 

HQ:

>Lord w/ Jump Pack [Khorne] [Relic: Flayer]

Combi-bolter, Powersword (replaced by Flayer)

99 points

 

Heavy:

>Obliterator [sLAANESH or NURGLE]

95 points

 

Troop:

>10 Cultists

X10 Autoguns

40 points

 

Troop:

>10 Cultists

X10 Autoguns

40 points

 

Troop:

>4 Chaos Space Marines + 1 Aspiring Champion

X4 Bolters, X1 Combi-bolter, X1 Chainsword

55 points

 

Giving me a Batalion at 496 points for a total of 8CP, -1CP for a second relic and enough points for either 2 Heavy Stubbers or a Warp Bolter.

Edited December 19, 2019 by Doom Herald