Dark Angels Legends

[Angel of Solitude]

So, GW has released the “Legends” datasheets. Dark Angels are mostly as expected - all our character on a bike options are gone:

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/b45a1e60.pdf

 

However, the one that I am really sad about is that you can no longer take a Ven Dreadnought with either quad autocannon, or twin autocannon/twin lascannon.

 

Oh, and you can no longer take a SS/TH Belial.

 

Bike Sergeants with combi-weapons seem ok though?

[Berzul]

Well, many would have argued that since the Codex, the Index options ot Autocannons on the Dreads were also kind of gone. Which is a shame. The quad autocannon variant on my ven dreads was a particularly beloved one. I will miss it.

 

As for the rest of the changes, yeah, it seems to be just those. Not that bad, or unexpected, I'd say.

[Deadman Wade]

Well, I see it as a legit way to use these models until their rules will become too outdated. Sure, biker chaplains and librarians are already miss litanies and new psychic powers, but dakka dread with autocannons is still a good choise.

Edited December 4, 2019 by Deadman Wade

[Lostrael]

Even though it was expected, I have to admit I'm still a bit angry about the bikers. Maybe my group will establish house rules, but I doubt it. 

[ValourousHeart]

I understand that DA are losing the bike characters because all SM are losing these bike characters.  However I feel that DA have a more specialized connection to bikes and those characters should be a part of it.

 

Hopefully we don't have to wait to long for the Primaris Bikes, and hopefully a Primaris Attack Bike or Land Speeder alternative.  And at that time we'll see the return of our chaplain and librarian on bike on bike or land speeder.

[Gederas]

I understand that DA are losing the bike characters because all SM are losing these bike characters.  However I feel that DA have a more specialized connection to bikes and those characters should be a part of it.

 

Hopefully we don't have to wait to long for the Primaris Bikes, and hopefully a Primaris Attack Bike or Land Speeder alternative.  And at that time we'll see the return of our chaplain and librarian on bike on bike or land speeder.

Codex: Space Marines still gets the Captain on Bike unit. Dark Angels don't.....

[Guest MistaGav]

We still have an apothecary, ancient and champion on bike. They are rather unique but now we are the only chapter who have them. 

[Galloway]

Entirely possible I'm not following something, but its not clear to me why the dreadnought options are going away. Legends PDF says (for both dreadnought and ven. dread):

 

This datasheet gains the following wargear options:

• This model can be equipped with one of the following instead of 1 assault cannon: 1 twin autocannon; 1 twin heavy bolter; 1 twin heavy flamer.

• This model can be equipped with 1 twin autocannon instead of 1 Dreadnought combat weapon and 1 storm bolter.

 

 

 

So it seems to me like you can explicitly do either (using standard rule to swap out AC for LC). But as I say, quite possible I'm not following entirely.

[Berzul]

You can use them.

 

But, the unit now counts as a Legenda unit.

 

Its a format thing. Legend units might not be allowed in certain groups, stores, clubs, or tournaments.

 

It becomes a format thing. Like choosing to play matches or open play, or choosing to use a battlezone, or choosing a maelstorm or eternal war game... Now you can add:

 

Are we using Legends?

[Galloway]

OK, I see (I think). So now if you want to use twin AC you'd have to run as a Mortis dread or Legends unit, and AC/LC requires being a Legends unit.

[aura_enchanted]

So I'm confused, the Excelsior is in chapter approved along with the rhino primaris, and yet their also in legends.

 

It's like a house cat, is it in.. or is it out?? Also it's cheaper in legends then in chapter approved (rhino primaris is 58 in legends and 70 in Chapter approved)..whats.. what's going on here.

 

Also STILL no points cost for the twin plasma gun of the rhino primaris (it's not in either book, gonna assume it's 22points for now as that's the cost of two plasma guns, don't think anyone will object to that)

[JeffJedi]

We actually gained something we never had, a Techmarine with Conversion Beamer. I just happen to have a model ready. ;)

[Grimdark_Garage]

I was really hoping for Sergeant Naaaman to show up on their. Wishful thinking

[Angel of Solitude]

So I'm confused, the Excelsior is in chapter approved along with the rhino primaris, and yet their also in legends.

 

It's like a house cat, is it in.. or is it out?? Also it's cheaper in legends then in chapter approved (rhino primaris is 58 in legends and 70 in Chapter approved)..whats.. what's going on here.

 

Also STILL no points cost for the twin plasma gun of the rhino primaris (it's not in either book, gonna assume it's 22points for now as that's the cost of two plasma guns, don't think anyone will object to that)

Neither the Land Raider Executioner nor the Primaris are in the Codex, and they do not have updated points costs in CA2019, so they are now exclusively legends.

 

The Repulsor Executioner is in CA2019 though.

[Chaplain Elijah]

 

So I'm confused, the Excelsior is in chapter approved along with the rhino primaris, and yet their also in legends.

 

It's like a house cat, is it in.. or is it out?? Also it's cheaper in legends then in chapter approved (rhino primaris is 58 in legends and 70 in Chapter approved)..whats.. what's going on here.

 

Also STILL no points cost for the twin plasma gun of the rhino primaris (it's not in either book, gonna assume it's 22points for now as that's the cost of two plasma guns, don't think anyone will object to that)

Neither the Land Raider Executioner nor the Primaris are in the Codex, and they do not have updated points costs in CA2019, so they are now exclusively legends.

 

The Repulsor Executioner is in CA2019 though.

 

 

 

I do recall the Rhino Primaris being cited in CA2019 though...

[Angel of Solitude]

 

 

So I'm confused, the Excelsior is in chapter approved along with the rhino primaris, and yet their also in legends.

 

It's like a house cat, is it in.. or is it out?? Also it's cheaper in legends then in chapter approved (rhino primaris is 58 in legends and 70 in Chapter approved)..whats.. what's going on here.

 

Also STILL no points cost for the twin plasma gun of the rhino primaris (it's not in either book, gonna assume it's 22points for now as that's the cost of two plasma guns, don't think anyone will object to that)

Neither the Land Raider Executioner nor the Primaris are in the Codex, and they do not have updated points costs in CA2019, so they are now exclusively legends.

 

The Repulsor Executioner is in CA2019 though.

 

 

 

I do recall the Rhino Primaris being cited in CA2019 though...

 

I stand corrected - they're in the HQ section.

 

However, there is a difference in data sheets as follows:

 

RHINO PRIMARIS - Legends loses the Orbital array weapon entry, but instead gains the Orbital Comms Array ability.

LAND RAIDER EXCELSIOR - Legend loses the CHARACTER keyword, the Combi-plasma is now called the Excelsior combi-plasma, and it now has the ATSKNF ability.

 

Feels like a muck up for GW. Neither the Primaris nor Excelsior have appeared in previous CA point updates, Legends points are supposed to be definitive, yet here CA2019 is, providing us with points updates for these units...

[ValourousHeart]

 

I understand that DA are losing the bike characters because all SM are losing these bike characters.  However I feel that DA have a more specialized connection to bikes and those characters should be a part of it.

 

Hopefully we don't have to wait to long for the Primaris Bikes, and hopefully a Primaris Attack Bike or Land Speeder alternative.  And at that time we'll see the return of our chaplain and librarian on bike on bike or land speeder.

Codex: Space Marines still gets the Captain on Bike unit. Dark Angels don't.....

 

... have Captains, you are absolutely correct.  In DA codex the Captain equivalent is called a Master.  Although we do have a Captain level character on something better than a bike.  Lets review.

 

Corvex has +1T and +1A over a bike Captain.

The captain has to give up the bolt pistol in order to upgrade to something that can pair with the twin bolter to be more inline with the twin stormbolter Sableclaw has.  Sableclaw doesn't have to give up his bolt pistol.

The Raven Sword is as good as any relic or melee weapon the Captain can take, and doesn't take up your relic slot.  From what I can tell the Burning Blade is the only thing that is better, however on the charge the Raven Sword is stronger and it always gets that extra attack.

The only questionable comparison you can make is between the Plasma Canon and the Storm Shield, but it is hardly a clear cut choice that is one is universally considered better, at best you could claim that you personally have a preference of one over the other.

 

Sableclaw has +2 movement, +1T, +1W, and +1A over a bike Captain.

The twin heavy bolter is superior to the twin bolter.

The twin assault canon is better than any weapon upgrades you can pick on the captain.

The Raven Sword is the same as on Corvex.

 

Even with their special rules Sammael comes out on top, because he doesn't have to spend 2CP for either chapter master or skilled rider.  Only has to spend 1CP if he wants to advance and charge.

 

And as MistaGav pointed out DA still keep the Champ, Banner and Apoth on bike.

 

*EDIT* And this doesn't go into the Talonmaster.

Edited December 5, 2019 by ValourousHeart

[Berzul]

That leaves successors without a Master in a bike, as an option.

 

Kinda sucks for us successors.

[Interrogator Stobz]

That is the downside, it remains a bummer for successors.

[Berzul]

Noone thinks of the successors...

[Solrac]

 

 

I understand that DA are losing the bike characters because all SM are losing these bike characters.  However I feel that DA have a more specialized connection to bikes and those characters should be a part of it.

 

Hopefully we don't have to wait to long for the Primaris Bikes, and hopefully a Primaris Attack Bike or Land Speeder alternative.  And at that time we'll see the return of our chaplain and librarian on bike on bike or land speeder.

Codex: Space Marines still gets the Captain on Bike unit. Dark Angels don't.....

 

... have Captains, you are absolutely correct.  In DA codex the Captain equivalent is called a Master.  Although we do have a Captain level character on something better than a bike.  Lets review.

 

Corvex has +1T and +1A over a bike Captain.

The captain has to give up the bolt pistol in order to upgrade to something that can pair with the twin bolter to be more inline with the twin stormbolter Sableclaw has.  Sableclaw doesn't have to give up his bolt pistol.

The Raven Sword is as good as any relic or melee weapon the Captain can take, and doesn't take up your relic slot.  From what I can tell the Burning Blade is the only thing that is better, however on the charge the Raven Sword is stronger and it always gets that extra attack.

The only questionable comparison you can make is between the Plasma Canon and the Storm Shield, but it is hardly a clear cut choice that is one is universally considered better, at best you could claim that you personally have a preference of one over the other.

 

Sableclaw has +2 movement, +1T, +1W, and +1A over a bike Captain.

The twin heavy bolter is superior to the twin bolter.

The twin assault canon is better than any weapon upgrades you can pick on the captain.

The Raven Sword is the same as on Corvex.

 

Even with their special rules Sammael comes out on top, because he doesn't have to spend 2CP for either chapter master or skilled rider.  Only has to spend 1CP if he wants to advance and charge.

 

And as MistaGav pointed out DA still keep the Champ, Banner and Apoth on bike.

 

*EDIT* And this doesn't go into the Talonmaster.

 

 

I disagree. Whilst Sammael (on Sableclaw) is one of the best things in our codex I wouldn't flat out say he comes out on top. I would say he only comes out on top in some situations.

 

It's not a correct comparison because you haven't considered Space Marine or Supplement Chapter Tactics, Doctrines, Supplement Relics or Stratagems which puts the bike captain ahead of Sammael in many situations. Not to mention the fact that a Space Marine Captain on bike with Power Fist and Storm Shield is half the points of Sammael on Sableclaw.

 

Also even though you would have to pay 2CP to make the Captain a Chapter Master it's totally worth it because the new and improved Chapter Master re-roll all hits aura is far superior to the current re-roll failed hits aura Sammael, Belial and Azrael have.

 

With the next Psychic Awakening though we should be able to close the gap nicely like the Blood Angels have.

Edited December 5, 2019 by Solrac

[ValourousHeart]

That leaves successors without a Master in a bike, as an option.

 

Kinda sucks for us successors.

 

Successor??  Do you mean alternate color schemes that still use all of the DA rules?  So you are running Angels of Absolution and you field Sam-I-Am on Corvette or Boneclaw.  It isn't that complicated.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I understand that DA are losing the bike characters because all SM are losing these bike characters.  However I feel that DA have a more specialized connection to bikes and those characters should be a part of it.

 

Hopefully we don't have to wait to long for the Primaris Bikes, and hopefully a Primaris Attack Bike or Land Speeder alternative.  And at that time we'll see the return of our chaplain and librarian on bike on bike or land speeder.

Codex: Space Marines still gets the Captain on Bike unit. Dark Angels don't.....

 

... have Captains, you are absolutely correct.  In DA codex the Captain equivalent is called a Master.  Although we do have a Captain level character on something better than a bike.  Lets review.

 

Corvex has +1T and +1A over a bike Captain.

The captain has to give up the bolt pistol in order to upgrade to something that can pair with the twin bolter to be more inline with the twin stormbolter Sableclaw has.  Sableclaw doesn't have to give up his bolt pistol.

The Raven Sword is as good as any relic or melee weapon the Captain can take, and doesn't take up your relic slot.  From what I can tell the Burning Blade is the only thing that is better, however on the charge the Raven Sword is stronger and it always gets that extra attack.

The only questionable comparison you can make is between the Plasma Canon and the Storm Shield, but it is hardly a clear cut choice that is one is universally considered better, at best you could claim that you personally have a preference of one over the other.

 

Sableclaw has +2 movement, +1T, +1W, and +1A over a bike Captain.

The twin heavy bolter is superior to the twin bolter.

The twin assault canon is better than any weapon upgrades you can pick on the captain.

The Raven Sword is the same as on Corvex.

 

Even with their special rules Sammael comes out on top, because he doesn't have to spend 2CP for either chapter master or skilled rider.  Only has to spend 1CP if he wants to advance and charge.

 

And as MistaGav pointed out DA still keep the Champ, Banner and Apoth on bike.

 

*EDIT* And this doesn't go into the Talonmaster.

 

 

I disagree. Whilst Sammael (on Sableclaw) is one of the best things in our codex I wouldn't flat out say he comes out on top. I would say he only comes out on top in some situations.

 

It's not a correct comparison because you haven't considered Space Marine or Supplement Chapter Tactics, Doctrines, Supplement Relics or Stratagems which puts the bike captain ahead of Sammael in many situations. Not to mention the fact that a Space Marine Captain on bike with Power Fist and Storm Shield is half the points of Sammael on Sableclaw.

 

Also even though you would have to pay 2CP to make the Captain a Chapter Master it's totally worth it because the new and improved Chapter Master re-roll all hits aura is far superior to the current re-roll failed hits aura Sammael, Belial and Azrael have.

 

With the next Psychic Awakening though we should be able to close the gap nicely like the Blood Angels have.

 

You know what I also didn't compare?  The fly keyword.  Or how about the fact that doctrines are useless for your captain until turn 3.

 

My comparison was of things that were not subjectively better but were demonstrably better.  A Twin Heavy Bolter is demonstrably better than a Twin Bolter.

[Master Sheol]

 

 

That leaves successors without a Master in a bike, as an option.

 

Kinda sucks for us successors.

Successor?? Do you mean alternate color schemes that still use all of the DA rules? So you are running Angels of Absolution and you field Sam-I-Am on Corvette or Boneclaw. It isn't that complicated.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I understand that DA are losing the bike characters because all SM are losing these bike characters. However I feel that DA have a more specialized connection to bikes and those characters should be a part of it.

 

Hopefully we don't have to wait to long for the Primaris Bikes, and hopefully a Primaris Attack Bike or Land Speeder alternative. And at that time we'll see the return of our chaplain and librarian on bike on bike or land speeder.

Codex: Space Marines still gets the Captain on Bike unit. Dark Angels don't.....

... have Captains, you are absolutely correct. In DA codex the Captain equivalent is called a Master. Although we do have a Captain level character on something better than a bike. Lets review.

 

Corvex has +1T and +1A over a bike Captain.

The captain has to give up the bolt pistol in order to upgrade to something that can pair with the twin bolter to be more inline with the twin stormbolter Sableclaw has. Sableclaw doesn't have to give up his bolt pistol.

The Raven Sword is as good as any relic or melee weapon the Captain can take, and doesn't take up your relic slot. From what I can tell the Burning Blade is the only thing that is better, however on the charge the Raven Sword is stronger and it always gets that extra attack.

The only questionable comparison you can make is between the Plasma Canon and the Storm Shield, but it is hardly a clear cut choice that is one is universally considered better, at best you could claim that you personally have a preference of one over the other.

 

Sableclaw has +2 movement, +1T, +1W, and +1A over a bike Captain.

The twin heavy bolter is superior to the twin bolter.

The twin assault canon is better than any weapon upgrades you can pick on the captain.

The Raven Sword is the same as on Corvex.

 

Even with their special rules Sammael comes out on top, because he doesn't have to spend 2CP for either chapter master or skilled rider. Only has to spend 1CP if he wants to advance and charge.

 

And as MistaGav pointed out DA still keep the Champ, Banner and Apoth on bike.

 

*EDIT* And this doesn't go into the Talonmaster.

I disagree. Whilst Sammael (on Sableclaw) is one of the best things in our codex I wouldn't flat out say he comes out on top. I would say he only comes out on top in some situations.

 

It's not a correct comparison because you haven't considered Space Marine or Supplement Chapter Tactics, Doctrines, Supplement Relics or Stratagems which puts the bike captain ahead of Sammael in many situations. Not to mention the fact that a Space Marine Captain on bike with Power Fist and Storm Shield is half the points of Sammael on Sableclaw.

 

Also even though you would have to pay 2CP to make the Captain a Chapter Master it's totally worth it because the new and improved Chapter Master re-roll all hits aura is far superior to the current re-roll failed hits aura Sammael, Belial and Azrael have.

 

With the next Psychic Awakening though we should be able to close the gap nicely like the Blood Angels have.

You know what I also didn't compare? The fly keyword. Or how about the fact that doctrines are useless for your captain until turn 3.

 

My comparison was of things that were not subjectively better but were demonstrably better. A Twin Heavy Bolter is demonstrably better than a Twin Bolter.

Rules in the codex data that the special characters are esclusive to the DA chapter

Successors have the Dark Angels faction keyword swapped for their chapter nane so Special Characters that are fixed to the DA keyword are not available to successors

Allowing SC to successors is a house rule

 

And you cannot compare DA to C:SM cause the latter received a new edition with all the bells and whistles while DA are still awaitung their update that will come with PA4

If PA4 will have bad rules for DA then we can complain but now we can only wait until january

Edited December 6, 2019 by Master Sheol

[aura_enchanted]

 

 

 

 

 

 

So I'm confused, the Excelsior is in chapter approved along with the rhino primaris, and yet their also in legends.

 

It's like a house cat, is it in.. or is it out?? Also it's cheaper in legends then in chapter approved (rhino primaris is 58 in legends and 70 in Chapter approved)..whats.. what's going on here.

 

Also STILL no points cost for the twin plasma gun of the rhino primaris (it's not in either book, gonna assume it's 22points for now as that's the cost of two plasma guns, don't think anyone will object to that)

Neither the Land Raider Executioner nor the Primaris are in the Codex, and they do not have updated points costs in CA2019, so they are now exclusively legends.

 

The Repulsor Executioner is in CA2019 though.

 

I do recall the Rhino Primaris being cited in CA2019 though...

I stand corrected - they're in the HQ section.

 

However, there is a difference in data sheets as follows:

 

RHINO PRIMARIS - Legends loses the Orbital array weapon entry, but instead gains the Orbital Comms Array ability.

LAND RAIDER EXCELSIOR - Legend loses the CHARACTER keyword, the Combi-plasma is now called the Excelsior combi-plasma, and it now has the ATSKNF ability.

 

Feels like a muck up for GW. Neither the Primaris nor Excelsior have appeared in previous CA point updates, Legends points are supposed to be definitive, yet here CA2019 is, providing us with points updates for these units...

I'm thinking that what they "intend" by this is basically that people who want to play with the Excelsior and primaris can do so outside of legends for 2019, and when 2020 CA happens the Excelsior and primaris move on to the pasture and move to legends with the new datasheets.

 

 

OR that the Warhammer legends listing is simply new datasheets for the two and that they aren't legends "but we needed to shove the rules in somewhere and white dwarf was full so here you go".

 

That seems to me like two logical lines that may have been plotted here.

 

So a "legends unit" but only in so far that they have nowhere better to list the new datasheets because they didn't want to reprint chapter approved, and charge people real money for the rules for this thing we still sell. And that it's still competitive legal being an exception to the rule.

 

Also would anyone argue with me paying 22ppm for the twin plasma gun as it has no points value at all in CA or legends (and index 1). So Ive been (and will) go with the cost of two plasma guns

[Berzul]

 

 

That leaves successors without a Master in a bike, as an option.

 

Kinda sucks for us successors.

Successor?? Do you mean alternate color schemes that still use all of the DA rules? So you are running Angels of Absolution and you field Sam-I-Am on Corvette or Boneclaw. It isn't that complicated.

Shhhh!! Don't reveal our successor secrets! Or Company Master Sam-I-Am will hunt you down!

 

Hahahahaha!!

 

Funny enough, unless I am playing Azrael or Ezekiel, I actually DO try to follow the Successor rules.

 

I do not own a Belial or a Sammael model. Have never actually played them. I started as mostly a greenwing player and hace stayed as such over the years for the most part.

 

Also, I strive to play as WYSIWYG as possible, and care little for ultra optimized lists.

 

So, yeah, often I will play with the actual successor rules. Which, to be honest, absolutely suck. Playing counts-as-DA is definetly the way to go.

 

My fear is what will happen when the chibi marines begin to follow these first units into legends. My army has ZERO primaris. I even call it a Legends Marine army, in my gaming group, because I expect each unit ti start being phased out sooner or later.

Edited December 6, 2019 by Berzul