Dark Angels Legends

[Fierce Bear]

I admit I am left a little confused, the items with point values are legends, but the war gear options almost read like and FAQ for codex DA..? I.e. those options transfer to the codex and not legends...

 

I guess I've missed something...

 

Also why did the twin lasxannon on dreads go away!!?!!! (Looks at old metal Dread with one... #sadface)

Edited December 6, 2019 by Fierce Bear

[Chaplain Elijah]

Also why did the twin lasxannon on dreads go away!!?!!! (Looks at old metal Dread with one... #sadface)

 

Wait what ?

[Berzul]

They can still use twin lascannons, as much as I can tell.

 

What went away was the twin autocannon, but I honestly cannot understand why.

 

Is it a forgeworld thing? Because the bit was only on forgeworld?

[Angel of Solitude]

It's a weird one that.

 

I guess GW's logic is that strictly speaking, the Legend weapon options for the Venerable Dreadnought are not available as part of the GW set, hence they've been moved to Legends.

 

The twin autocannon options available from FW are for the FW "Mortis Dreadnought" entry, which has its own datasheet/points.

 

But yeah. I'm bummed that I now lose my 2+ BS and 6+++ on my fire platform Ven. Or that I have to go with a less efficient missile launcher instead of the twin autocannon.

[ValourousHeart]

 

 

That leaves successors without a Master in a bike, as an option.

 

Kinda sucks for us successors.

Successor?? Do you mean alternate color schemes that still use all of the DA rules? So you are running Angels of Absolution and you field Sam-I-Am on Corvette or Boneclaw. It isn't that complicated.

Rules in the codex data that the special characters are esclusive to the DA chapter

Successors have the Dark Angels faction keyword swapped for their chapter nane so Special Characters that are fixed to the DA keyword are not available to successors

Allowing SC to successors is a house rule

 

And you cannot compare DA to C:SM cause the latter received a new edition with all the bells and whistles while DA are still awaitung their update that will come with PA4

If PA4 will have bad rules for DA then we can complain but now we can only wait until january

 

Just so we are clear... your hard NO on this is exclusively at tournaments where the TO's house rules trump even the clearly printed rules in GW's publications?

 

Yes I understand what the codex says about taking named characters with successor chapters.

And I can see that as a valid point if you are playing Imperial Fist or Raven Guard, you can't just take Ultramarines characters and run them with the Imperial Fist keyword.

Or can you if you are playing narrative or open play and potentially in matched play if not already prohibited under TO's house rules.

 

We aren't talking about Imperial Knights were there are Warlord Traits, Relics, and Strategems that require you to run your army as a certain household in order to access.

We aren't even talking about Blood Angels that at least have a named character for one of their successor chapters.

 

This conversation is about playing Angels of Absolution or Disciples of Caliban, where there is no incentive to not run with the Dark Angels keyword.

Sure call the chapter whatever you want, paint your models however you want, but at the end of the day you are still playing using the Dark Angels codex with all of the Dark Angels rules and the Dark Angels keyword.

 

 

 

That leaves successors without a Master in a bike, as an option.

 

Kinda sucks for us successors.

Successor?? Do you mean alternate color schemes that still use all of the DA rules? So you are running Angels of Absolution and you field Sam-I-Am on Corvette or Boneclaw. It isn't that complicated.

Shhhh!! Don't reveal our successor secrets! Or Company Master Sam-I-Am will hunt you down!

 

Hahahahaha!!

 

Funny enough, unless I am playing Azrael or Ezekiel, I actually DO try to follow the Successor rules.

 

See Berzul gets it.  This is a game, it is meant to be fun.  No matter how hyper competitive the environment gets, this game should always be fun!  So play with your toys and enjoy yourself.

[UtariOnzo]

The issue isn’t that people don’t play with their toys, it’s that official GW publication is taking options away for those that want to, or have to, follow the Successor rules.

 

Not everyone is lucky enough to be part of a more relaxed gaming group when it comes to stuff like this, myself I live in a small coastal town and the nearest club is 30 minutes drive away at the GW store, and the other a good hour/hour and a half drive or train to the bigger city. If my club wasn’t so chill, what do I do? Lump it or eat the extra cost of the longer trip in fuel/ticket price/time? Sure that’s a minority example, I’ll grant that, but a hobby our size I’m pretty sure there are folks stuck in exactly that situation.

 

Sometimes people want to take their lovely painted successor army to tournaments, and then the rules bite them because the TO reads the rules as written. Can’t run Sam-I-Am with bone white and dark green armour in the tournament your friends are running custom chapter masters in.

 

Sometimes, just sometimes, folks choose to follow the rules strictly because they want to follow the rules. That’s how they play, and up until fairly recently they still had plenty of options for their own 1st and 2nd company leaders.

 

No one is complaining about not having successor special characters, but complaining that options to make our own characters have been Legended. Taking official options away that previously existed is never a good thing, and no amount of “oh just use counts as” plasters over that fact, especially as the Legends units become more and more left behind over editions and rules updates.

[ValourousHeart]

The issue isn’t that people don’t play with their toys, it’s that official GW publication is taking options away for those that want to, or have to, follow the Successor rules.

 

I call BS.  This is your army, your game, and your choice on which models you include in your list.  There is no "have to."  You have free will, so don't blame others for your choices.

 

Not everyone is lucky enough to be part of a more relaxed gaming group when it comes to stuff like this, myself I live in a small coastal town and the nearest club is 30 minutes drive away at the GW store, and the other a good hour/hour and a half drive or train to the bigger city. If my club wasn’t so chill, what do I do? Lump it or eat the extra cost of the longer trip in fuel/ticket price/time? Sure that’s a minority example, I’ll grant that, but a hobby our size I’m pretty sure there are folks stuck in exactly that situation.

 

This has nothing to do with your group.  Does your group buy you models for you?  Does you group write your list for you?  Do they roll the dice for you?  Even at the most competitive environments with the most toxic players I've ever met, I still wrote my list.  Again I call BS if you are trying to make us think that you are so weak willed that you are incapable of writing your own list due to peer pressure.

 

Not sure what the travel time to the club or store has to do with anything.  I have never lived closer than 30 minutes to the local game store.  And depending upon the time of day that 30 minute drive could take over 2 hours.  Minority problem?  Please, a stronger argument would have been "I could get to the LGS faster if I didn't have to put on pants."

 

So you admit your club is chill, why did you try to claim that they weren't?

 

Sometimes people want to take their lovely painted successor army to tournaments, and then the rules bite them because the TO reads the rules as written. Can’t run Sam-I-Am with bone white and dark green armour in the tournament your friends are running custom chapter masters in.

 

Ok so lets dive in to this and see how far we can take it.

 

If you go to a tournament with SM with black armor which codex does the TO force you to use?  Black Templars, Raven Guard, Death Watch, Dark Angels (Ravenwing), Iron Hands, Black Consuls (UM), Hammers of Dorn (IF), and Black Dragons all wear black armor and all have different rules.  So which codex would they force you to play?

 

If your marines are painted yellow, will they force you to play Imperial Fist?  Or could you play them as Libators (UM) or Marauders (WS)?

 

The codex shows the gun casings for Dark Angels are red, however the land speeder on page 111 of the codex has black gun casings.  If you painted your Ravenwing Speeder to match that picture would the TO make you run that speeder as a successor chapter because it doesn't match the color template on page 16?

 

If you don't use GW paints how far off in tone can your Deathwatch be before the TO forces you to play WS or IF?

 

All tournaments I have ever been to required you to bring the books for your army.  Because of that the TO's don't tell us what army we have to play.  If the TO's in your area actually pull these stunts, do they provide a copy of the codex they are forcing you to change to?

 

The answer to the TO in your ridiculous situation is... "This is my army list, this is the way my models are painted, I am playing Dark Angels."

 

Sometimes, just sometimes, folks choose to follow the rules strictly because they want to follow the rules. That’s how they play, and up until fairly recently they still had plenty of options for their own 1st and 2nd company leaders.

 

I get that.  I play strictly Ravenwing, because I like Ravenwing, and yes it means that I have added restrictions myself to what units I will field.  But those are my restrictions, and as such I can always change my mind later.  The same is true for you.  You choose to not take named characters.  Take agency of that decision!  Stop playing the victim card.  You made the choice and you can change your mind.

 

 

No one is complaining about not having successor special characters, but complaining that options to make our own characters have been Legended. Taking official options away that previously existed is never a good thing, and no amount of “oh just use counts as” plasters over that fact, especially as the Legends units become more and more left behind over editions and rules updates.

 

Nothing has been taken away!  Legends simply means this is the last update for that unit until a new new edition.  You can use legends in OPEN, NARRATIVE, and MATCHED PLAY.  You can even use them in ORGANIZED PLAY with TO permission.  However if you chose to not use those models any longer, then you made that choice.  And when you complain about the choices you personally made, you come across sounding infantile.

[Berzul]

I once played a tournament against a guy that brought an Iron Hands list that:

 

1) Was painted in the Blood Ravens colors

2) Had a Primaris Apothecary as a substitute for Feirros

3) Has an Assault Sgt with powerfist as a substitute for a Thunder Hammer Jump Captain

4) Had Intercessors as substitutes for Tacticals

 

It was... Amusing

[Chaplain Elijah]

I once played a tournament against a guy that brought an Iron Hands list that:

 

1) Was painted in the Blood Ravens colors

2) Had a Primaris Apothecary as a substitute for Feirros

3) Has an Assault Sgt with powerfist as a substitute for a Thunder Hammer Jump Captain

4) Had Intercessors as substitutes for Tacticals

 

It was... Amusing

 

I thought tournaments had WYSIWYG rules ?

[Stormxlr]

I have full 5th company and demi company of ravenwing and Deathwing. The moment primaris were announced I stopped buying anything 40k related and stopped playing 40k half a year into 8th. I don't own a single primaris model.

They are killing my army and I understand the plight of WHfb players. However I love the ip and lore so moved onto playing Necromunda and Adeptus Titanicus. Anything made by forge world team is good in my book.

 

I believe over time all of the old models will transition to Legends.

[Master Sheol]

@Valorous Heart

You can write what you want but at page 74 of DA codex is written this:

"If a unit is drawn from a Dark Angels successor chapter simply substitute the "DARK ANGELS" keyword on every datasheet with the name of your Dark Angels successor Chapter"

And

"Note, however, that you cannot do this for named Characters - for example Azrael Is the Supreme Grand Master of the Dark Angels Chapter, and noylt any successor Chapter."

 

This is the rule written by GW. You can house rule it but you have to take account that you gaming club or opponent or TO could not agree to house rules.

 

As you say that people cannot force you to do as they want at the same time you cannot force them to do as YOU want.

There must always be a gentlemen agreement between you and your opponent on house rules and saying "i do what i want with my army" is not that polite IMHO

[Berzul]

Well, does that imply that ig I paint my army in a different color than the DA, I cannot play DA? Even if I use the same models? Wings and all?

 

The issue is that the rules for successors, as written, have another consequence: All stratagems are for <Dark Angels> units, and the successors rules do nothing about that.

 

So, successors not only have no special characters, and no relics save for the Heavenfall Blade, but also no stratagems (and I'm not sure if they have Warlord Traits beyond the 3 from the basic rulebook either).

 

So, there is pretty much no point in playing a successor chapter. Its making a list worse, from a codex that is already pretty near the bottom of the ladder.

 

But, then again.... What if you just want another color scheme?

 

Are we forced to play DA exactly as mandated in the color scheme of the codex? If so, what's even the point of being able to paint your models.

 

Personally, I have never been to a Tournament where the TO demandes I play with this "downgraded" rules.

 

I sometimes use them myself, because I am a masochist and a sucker for fluff over might. But I have never, in my life, seen anyone enforce this page of rules. Ever.

 

And I am seriously sorry if any of you have.

[Bryan Blaire]

Where is the rule in any of the rule books that tells you what to paint your models as to play them a certain way? Can someone please quote the rule? Where is the rule in the Dark Angels Codex that defines in words what the Dark Angels must be painted as?

[Berzul]

Yeah, that's the thing, really. The color scheme is set by lore, and we are talking rules.

 

Strictly from a mechanical stand point, you could paint your Darkshroud, or your Black Knights, or any other model in the scheme of the Ultramarines, or that of the Death Guard, or just dip them in a jar of neon purple, and they are still whichever faction or subfaction you claim them to be.

 

That can be DA, or a pre-existing successor, or ond you made up yourself.

 

No player should have a right to force you to play them as something else. As long as the model is the correct one, color should not really factor into it at all.

 

So, although the tone might be a bit aggresive, I agree with @ValorousHeart. Its your toys. You bought them. Play them how you like.

 

For example, I play mine as Dark Angels (so I cam have stratagems), but I rarely take named characters, or a relic besides the Heavenfall Blade. Because I ty to keep to Successors standards as much as I can, without rendering my army worthless on the battlefield.

[Bryan Blaire]

Here's the DA rule I could find:

KEYWORDS

Throughout this section you will come across datasheets with the DARK ANGELS keyword. This indicates that the unit is drawn from the Dark Angels Chapter, but the keyword can also be changed to represent that the unit is drawn from a successor Chapter of your choosing, as described below.

So from what I can tell, according to the rules, if I pick datasheets from the C:DA to make my army, my units are Dark Angels keyworded by default, and only become something else if I choose to make them such.

 

No where in that rule does it say that I must make them something else based on paint scheme.

 

Is there a rule in another page I'm missing? I can't find any other rules in the C:DA or the main rule book, or even the new C:SM that talk about paint schemes.

[ValourousHeart]

@Valorous Heart

You can write what you want but at page 74 of DA codex is written this:

"If a unit is drawn from a Dark Angels successor chapter simply substitute the "DARK ANGELS" keyword on every datasheet with the name of your Dark Angels successor Chapter"

And

"Note, however, that you cannot do this for named Characters - for example Azrael Is the Supreme Grand Master of the Dark Angels Chapter, and noylt any successor Chapter."

 

This is the rule written by GW. You can house rule it but you have to take account that you gaming club or opponent or TO could not agree to house rules.

 

As you say that people cannot force you to do as they want at the same time you cannot force them to do as YOU want.

There must always be a gentlemen agreement between you and your opponent on house rules and saying "i do what i want with my army" is not that polite IMHO

 

I think you are missing the point.

 

How you decide to paint your models has absolutely zero barring on what rules you play your army with.

Games Workshop's JJ wrote an article years ago about about his Space Marine collection.

In that article he said that he has played the same collection of models using every Marine codex ever released.

I don't know if anyone could give a more clear example of RAI when it comes to how your models are painted and which codex you may use.

 

I've acknowledged that there is a line in the codex that says if you are playing a successor chapter you may not use named characters.

My point is that there is no reason to ever do that.

There are no relics, warlord traits, stratagems or anything else in the codex that requires a successor chapter keyword to use.

 

The only thing that changing from the Dark Angels keyword does is prevent you from using named characters.

If you don't want to include Named Characters in your list, that is perfectly fine, but you are not required to change the keyword to do that.

[Cpt_Reaper]

I emailed GW about this issue because I want it cleared up once and for all.

 

I myself agree with Master Sheol. By page 74 of the codex if your army isn't clearly Dark Angels then no characters or relics for you. It doesn't state you choose to swap the keyword - it says how to play non-dark angels by simply swapping the keyword. That is my interpretation of the rule.

 

I very much want this to be countered by the FAQ team. I have a Master of the Ravenwing I cannot use right now. But if they reply with "if your models are not painted Dark Angels then no sammy for you" then that is something I'll have to deal with.

[Deadman Wade]

I've seen this argument like 50 times in B&C forums and I never really understood the problem tbh. You buy models, you paint them with anything you want, you call them what you want, you use whatever codex you want as long as they are WYSIWYG. If you want to call Sammael "Sam the Biker" from "Sons of Anarchy 40k" chapter and paint him pink, blue and white, no one can stop you, the model still has Sammael's rules and can be used with the rest of an army from C:DA, no matter what paint scheme and name they have. Unless you're adamant with changing keywords for your army, which is unnecessary self-imposed restriction that has zero benefits and zero sense. This is not a house rule, that's RAW and common sense.

 

There isn't such a thing in rules like "models should be painted XXX", plain and simple. There's no "right" way to paint your models. Damn, even bacis DA green can be achieved by different paints.

As for tournaments and gaming groups, ETC players used TIN CANS instead of miniatures, for Pete's sake, not to mention counts-as and painting schemes that make eyes bleed just by looking at them.

Edited December 8, 2019 by Deadman Wade

[Cpt_Reaper]

The tin cans is a horrible example. I'd demand TO disqualify that person due to no models being on the board.

 

You see the wording of successor rules as a choice, that only voluntarily hamstrings you army. I interpret it as not being a choice at all.

 

That's why I emailed GW to get a clear answer.

[Chaplain Elijah]

 

By page 74 of the codex if your army isn't clearly Dark Angels then no characters or relics for you.

 

Are you sure about the relics part ? Page 74 doesn't mention them.

I asking that because in my club someone is playing a Imperial Fist successor and use a relic every game.

[Cpt_Reaper]

The relics page has a sentence stating successors only may take a Heavenfall Blade.

 

I've not got the vanilla codex myself but as I understand it that codex was designed to invalidate this whole argument by letting successors do whatever they please.

[Bryan Blaire]

Everyone needs to re-read the Keywords rule from the Codex I posted above, or its cited on page 74 of the Codex if you don't believe my quote.

 

It specifically states that if you select datasheets from Codex: Dark Angels to make your army, then the units have the Keyword "Dark Angels" and they will have any benefits or drawbacks of doing so (in other words, datasheets selected from the Codex: Dark Angels are automatically Dark Angels when you are building an army).

 

The Keyword is allowed (but not required) to change by the words "can also be changed" to a Successor Keyword, but the rule very much specifies that this is "of your choosing" and states absolutely no requirement to do so.

 

The "Dark Angels Successor Chapters" part of the rules doesn't even trigger if you don't specifically choose to change your Keyword to something other than Dark Angels, which is already established by the rules as a choice.

 

There is absolutely no way to interpret the Keywords section of the rules otherwise, they leave no room for doubt – it's a very clear and short two sentences that are very specific in their wording with absolutely no mention of paint schemes or statements like "If your models are not obviously painted to match X paint scheme then they must be used as Successors" anywhere.

 

Now, if you and your group are absolutely deep into narrative gaming and want to play strict lore stuff, then of course the group can house-rule that all paint schemes must match those depicted for different Chapters in the book, as GW did for their own tournaments. Their Grand Tournaments or stuff at Warhammer World (one of the two, or both) actually have this rule, but it's written in their own rule pack outside of the Codex.

[Berzul]

So, in the end, I think we all agree.

 

There is no rule that forces you to have your army painted one way or another.

 

You make a list, and it is DA with the Darl Angel keyword.

 

You can them choose to, instead, use the key word of your successors.

 

If you do, you change the keyword Dark Angel for said Successor's keyword.

 

But, with doing so, you can no longer take named characters, relics beyond the Heavenfall Blade, warlord traits, or stratagems for the Dark Angels, as you no longer have the Dark Angels keyword.

 

So, you can either:

 

1) Play dark angels with another color

2) Play by the successor rules to the letter

3) Play dark angels, but follow up with not using named characters or relics beyond the Heavenfall blade

 

All of these would be legal in any situation.

[Cpt_Reaper]

"To play a successor, simply exchange the keyword" does not read as offering a choice to me. It's a set of instructions.

 

You either are playing Dark Angels or you're not.

 

And yes, paint scheme does matter to me. It's why I play homebrew subfactions for the freedom. If I had cadians I couldn't play use Tallarn rules. This new system of pick 2 traits is amazing because I can finally make my own subfactions that fit my lore.

 

Which, to get back on topic, is what I am praying for in Ritual of the Damned. A full overhaul of Dark Angels Successors rules. Not to mention all the other goodies we can get.

[Berzul]

People play successors in colors. Not in rules.

 

Under the current rules, there is absolutely no reason beyond pure masochism to play by the successors rules.

 

People play dark angels, with another color, and apply a head-cannon to the army. They simply dont take named characters, for consistency, and tread along.

 

Thats all.

Edited December 8, 2019 by Berzul