Dark Angels Legends

[Cpt_Reaper]

I'm feeling like my argument is being dismissed with a handwave here and I can't see why.

 

I do what I do because it's right and fair to me. If I don't abide by the rules then why should my opponent? I have a massive fear of being that guy and thus hold myself to a very high standard.

 

I enjoy the game within the rules. Even if those rules are to my creative detriment.

[Berzul]

I'm not trying to dismiss it.

 

My point is simply, that you CAN choose.

 

1) Either play a successor chapter by the rules,

 

2) or, play dark angels with no relic but the Heavenfall Blade, and no names characters.

 

The only difference being that in option 2) you can use stratagems, and warlord traits, since you have the Dark Angels keyword and those are locked to the Dark Angel keyword.

 

But the army will be assembled and painted as a successor, still.

 

But of you DO want to play by page 74's rule, yeah, you can.

[Deadman Wade]

I'm feeling like my argument is being dismissed with a handwave here and I can't see why.

 

I do what I do because it's right and fair to me. If I don't abide by the rules then why should my opponent? I have a massive fear of being that guy and thus hold myself to a very high standard.

 

I enjoy the game within the rules. Even if those rules are to my creative detriment.

Because painting scheme and your custom successor chapter name have zero effect on rules or army performance. That's it. If you choose self-imposed restrictions, it's fine, but they are NOT mandatory.

Painting Dark Angels red/blue/white IS LEGIT as well as using different paint scheme on special characters. Unless, of course, I missed a rule that states "Dark Angels are Caliban Green with Warboss Green highlights and Sammael is Abbadon Black with Dawnstone highlights, and you can't paint or call them differently".

Page 74 rules are obviously for fluff reasons only, otherwise you can ignore them.

As for being "that guy", well, if someone would tell me that I can't play my custom chapter with DA characters, he would be "that guy", and not the other way around.

Unless it's VERY fluff/roleplay heavy game with insanely stubborn and unpleasant players, no one would even think about asking if differently painted Sammael has "Dark Angels" keyword, since, rule-wise it doesn't matter as long as all your army is from Codex: Dark Angels.

The only valid objection to using DA SC's in successor chapter would be counts-as models that aren't WYSIWYG.

Edited December 8, 2019 by Deadman Wade

[Bryan Blaire]

I'm feeling like my argument is being dismissed with a handwave here and I can't see why. ... If I don't abide by the rules then why should my opponent?

No one is dismissing your argument with a hand wave - your argument doesn't follow any rules in the book, therefore you are making an argument based on a house rule, not an official one, and no one else is bound by a house rule without agreeing to it.

 

It has already been shown that in the rules, assigning your datasheets a Successor Keyword is something you choose to do per the Keywords portion of the rules. If you do not choose to do this, then your Keyword doesn't change from Dark Angels.

 

You must take an active step to assign yourself a Successor Keyword - none of the rules makes it mandatory - it is 100% a choice per the Keywords section of the rules.

 

You haven't yet cited a rule that requires you assign a Keyword based on your paint scheme, nor have you shown a rule that states that Keywords are assigned based on paint scheme.

 

Until you do, you are not providing a rule based argument that anyone else would be required to follow.

 

Here is your argument:

By page 74 of the codex if your army isn't clearly Dark Angels then no characters or relics for you. It doesn't state you choose to swap the keyword - it says how to play non-dark angels by simply swapping the keyword. That is my interpretation of the rule.

Your interpretation is wrong, because it does say you choose to swap the Keyword, it is an option and not mandatory.

 

Let's look at the mechanics of how you get your Keywords:

KEYWORDS

Throughout this section you will come across datasheets with the DARK ANGELS keyword. This indicates that the unit is drawn from the Dark Angels Chapter, but the keyword can also be changed to represent that the unit is drawn from a successor Chapter of your choosing, as described below.

So according to the rules, if I pick datasheets from the C:DA to make my army, my units are Dark Angels keyworded by default, and only become something else if I choose to make them such.

 

So your reasoning is flawed, because you definitely do CHOOSE to change them - it says "can" (indicating it is an option, which means it has to be selected to happen) and it's "of your choosing" right in the rule - "can also be changed to represent the unit is drawn from a Successor Chapter of your choosing" - you can't deny that the option and choice are written into the rules - it's right there in the rules, it uses the word "can" and even the word "choosing."

 

Nothing states a paint scheme forces your Keyword to change - the only way "If a unit is drawn from a Dark Angels successor Chapter, simply substitute the ‘DARK ANGELS’ keyword on every datasheet with the name of your Dark Angels successor Chapter" happens is specifically if you choose to change the unit's Keyword and specifically pick the Successor Chapter you use - otherwise nothing specifies that it changes.

 

If you do choose to change it, nothing in either rules block specifies that a paint scheme determines what you change it to - per the rules, the Successor Chapter the Keyword changes to would be of your choosing.

 

You must make a choice to change the Keyword for a unit, per the rules from the Codex.

 

No choice, no change.

[ValourousHeart]

I'm feeling like my argument is being dismissed with a handwave here and I can't see why.

 

I'm also not dismissing your argument out of hand.  I'm simply stating in an adorably blunt and crass way that what you are claiming as "the rules" is more accurately described as "your preferred play style".

 

As for why you can't see why, I'd recommend you take a moment to reflect on what we have said.  All of us have been very consistent on our claims.  Perhaps you are the one who is dismissing the arguments of others with a handwave.

 

I do what I do because it's right and fair to me. If I don't abide by the rules then why should my opponent? I have a massive fear of being that guy and thus hold myself to a very high standard.

 

What you are claiming is right and the reason you are claiming it isn't even remotely equivalent.  The expectation that you or your opponent don't cheat has absolutely nothing to do with which codex or units you or your opponent chose to play with.

 

I emailed GW about this issue because I want it cleared up once and for all.

 

I'm curious if you wouldn't mind sharing the text of that email.  I'm interested in the way you phrased the question.

 

By page 74 of the codex if your army isn't clearly Dark Angels then no characters or relics for you.

 

Could you define what you mean by "Clearly Dark Angels".

 

That is my interpretation of the rule.

 

... I have a Master of the Ravenwing I cannot have chosen not to use right now. 

 

Fixed that for you

 

But if they reply with "if your models are not painted Dark Angels then no sammy for you" then that is something I'll have to deal with.

 

How sure are you that will be GW response?  I think we both know that GW will NEVER say that.  Too bad we can't bet on this forum.

 

You see the wording of successor rules as a choice, that only voluntarily hamstrings you army. I interpret it as not being a choice at all.

 

Is it a choice to play Dark Angels or Blood Angels?  If you CHOOSE to play Blood Angels and CHOOSE to include Gabriel Seth, the fact that the Blood Angels keyword changed to the Flesh Tearers keyword doesn't discount the fact that you made the CHOICE.

[Master Sheol]

Yes i can choose to Paint my DA army as Angels of Absolution and not change the keyword and use Sammael and Belial but IMHO Is like "cheating" to my opponent and i deliberate choose to not do it and stay on DA green/bone/black army

 

This is the problem with non codex complaint chapters

They all have the main chapter keyword already written in the book and you Can Stick ti It even if you are crearly playing a successor Chapter

The main SM codex by other hand has the [Chapter] keyword that Force you to choose a chapter and if you choose a successor you cannot have the First founding chapters rules/relics/Characters and so on

 

So i Will Always accept this house rule of the "count as" but as the same time i respect Who wants to follow the rules more strictly

[ValourousHeart]

Yes i can choose to Paint my DA army as Angels of Absolution and not change the keyword and use Sammael and Belial but IMHO Is like "cheating" to my opponent and i deliberate choose to not do it and stay on DA green/bone/black army

 

But it isn't cheating... or even like "cheating".

 

Would you ever accuse your opponent of cheating based on the fact that their color scheme didn't match the studio army?

Are you really "That guy"?

 

 

This is the problem with non codex complaint chapters

They all have the main chapter keyword already written in the book and you Can Stick ti It even if you are crearly playing a successor Chapter

The main SM codex by other hand has the [Chapter] keyword that Force you to choose a chapter and if you choose a successor you cannot have the First founding chapters rules/relics/Characters and so on

 

This is stupid.  If you want to lie to yourself and your opponent that you are not playing Dark Angels while using the Dark Angels Codex, go ahead.

But simply changing the color scheme and not taking Named Characters doesn't change the fact that you are playing Dark Angels with the Dark Angels codex.

 

 

So i Will Always accept this house rule of the "count as" but as the same time i respect Who wants to follow the rules more strictly

 

I think you are using the term "count as" wrong.  "Count As" is when instead of buying the official Belial model, I take a TDA Captain and build my own.  Or I make a Tyranid army with a mechanical feel to it using other model kits to get the mechanical look while making the models look as similar to the official models as I can.  Or building a Britonian army where instead of using Britonian Knights on horses I use Ravenwing bikers with brightly colored robes, and replace their 40k weapons with lance and shield.

 

"Counts as" is not fielding the official Corvex model in a list using the Dark Angels codex where the models are painted in colors other than Green, Bone or Black.

[Berzul]

I still don't see the issue here. I think that everyone's point is pretty much consistent with everyone else's.

 

At least, in so far as that no matter how you play it, you are achieving the same material result.

 

You can either chose to play your successor-painted models as:

 

1) Dark Angels, using all the named characters, relics, traits and stratagems of the chapter

2) Dark Angels, without named characters, and with only the heavenfall blade

3) Successors, without named characters, without relics beyond the heavenfall blade, without traits and without stratagems

 

All of these would be legal and valid. At least, to the letter of the codex itself. Meaning, if you wanted to go with any of these options and someone tried to stop you, you could just slam them with the actual codex and command them to stop their "that-guy-i-ness" right then and there.

 

The rest is all up to personal preference.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Time out... This is not about the Legends anymore. Let's cool down and agree to disagree, mkay?