Sicaran variants?

[TorvaldTheMild]

Any reason why we don't get all the Sicaran variants, did FW mess up and not realised that they were made during the Great Crusade.  It makes no sense that we don't get access to them all.

[MegaVolt87]

Don't buy any FW that doesn't have 40k rules unless you also do HH.

[TorvaldTheMild]

That doesn't answer my question.  Don't you think its odd that we don't have rules for them though?

[Lord_Starscream]

That doesn't answer my question.  Don't you think its odd that we don't have rules for them though?

 

Ask FW why, but as it stands, if it doesn't have rules, that's just life.

[TorvaldTheMild]

Yeah, very good.

[Emicus]

Too hard to maintain so it broke down?

Horus set them all on fire to prove a point?

 

....diversification between loyalists and traitors beyond paint colour?

[TorvaldTheMild]

I'm fine with diversification between loyalists and traitors but if there is a valid reason for it.  We don't have Land Raider crusaders which is fine because they were created in the 39th millennium, but just randomly omitting them doesn't make a whole load of sense to me, same with the whirlwind, which CSM don't have which is pretty random from the present that is.  Also there is no need to make differences between the loyalists and traitors now with the Primaris range even if they aren't replacing old marines, though lets face it they are.  Also come to think of it we should have access to more stuff considering the Primaris stuff, they have a whole codex full of stuff extra, previously it was understandable as we have daemons engines etc.  Also with the way things are going SM's are now having a more grav-tech style so a lot of the old vehicles especially track tanks will actually be far more Chaosy in the future.

[TrawlingCleaner]

I'm fine with diversification between loyalists and traitors but if there is a valid reason for it.  We don't have Land Raider crusaders which is fine because they were created in the 39th millennium, but just randomly omitting them doesn't make a whole load of sense to me, same with the whirlwind, which CSM don't have which is pretty random from the present that is.  Also there is no need to make differences between the loyalists and traitors now with the Primaris range even if they aren't replacing old marines, though lets face it they are.

 

Is there a valid reason for Traitor Legions having whirlwinds? IMO, not really. Someone brings a Whirlwind to a 10 thousand year old Warpsmith and says please can you fix and resupply this? The warpsmith hasn't seen one before, has no idea how they work and how to resupply it with no Forgeworlds. I imagine the same sort of frame of mind goes for Sicarians, they're relics of 10 thousand years. Legions have no way of making more, they can barely keep them supplied properly, if one falls into disrepair they probably just pull it apart for another one, if they had a more obscure variant they probably strip the weapons off and replace it with weapons they can use i.e autocannons and lascannons.

 

Regarding diversifcation between SM and CSM, I think adding units from Forgeworld just because they had them 10 thousand years ago just adds more to the "CSM are just spiky SM"

[TorvaldTheMild]

You missed my point.  There is no reason why the traitors just stopped using whirlwinds, they already have the STC's for rhino's therefore they have it for the whirlwind, that's how the STC's work, and even if that wasn't the case its hardly a feet of engineering for them to add a missile rack onto a rhino.  The traitors also have all the information they need for the other Sicarans as they have the rhino and land raider STC's, they have everything they need to make more.  Also if the Warpsmith is 10,000 years old he would have worked on Whirlwinds before so he'd have seen one before and known how it works.   Also the argument of being distinct from loyalists stuff doesn't really make any sense as CSM's have two Sicaran variants, I mean having different weapons mounted on Sicarans isn't that distinct.  If it is technology that was created by the loyalists after the HH then sure it makes perfect sense.


Not with Primaris now, they are completely distinct and CSM 'are' just spiky SM's when it comes to technology they have had and have used.  I mean they have a whole codex full of distinct units, does having a Sicaran with a punisher cannon really add anything to how distinct they are.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

The warbands in the Eye don't tend to have manufacturing facilities. They can not only not repair damaged equipment, but they can't rearm them after they've expanded all their ammo. They have to bargain, steal, or seize ammo and spare parts from anyone else, so common and more easily produced stuff like bolter shells and melta canisters are easy to come by. Castellan-class Whirlwind munitions...not so much.

 

Most of the Dark Mechanicus outposts in the Eye are not devoted to making STC equipment that was common to the Legions or even the Imperium. They whole attraction of going Dark for the Martian Magi was the ability to innovate and experiment, to delve into previous forbidden techniques and technologies. Why build Whirlwinds when you can make Forgefiends? Why build assault cannons when you can make Hades autocannons?

 

That's why you don't see Legionnary gear in large amounts. The people who actually build stuff for the Legions aren't replacing losses, they're innovating with warp-tech.

[Gederas]

ADB answered this with Dude, Where's my Land Speeder?

 

TL;DR: Don't question it, just roll with it

[MegaVolt87]

FW is kinda at the tail end of legion vehicles. We have access to the solid staple sicarans. The gatling one we don't really need, the plasma one (omega) isn't great in 40k and the Arcus 40k rules suck because they don't have the good ammo like they do in HH. You may as well stick with scorpius for 40k, that can hide and indirect fire at range. There is no plausible lore reasons for missing legion 40k vehicle rules, every shoestring warband, there is a well equipped one in the lore. I would have ported over all the legion vehicle rules with 4ok ones for SM and chaos, same with ad mech HH units to 40k. That's how you make make all the money, even if you don't sell a lot of things, selling all the things gets you there. Which is why we asr seeing specialist games make a comeback and smaller contained skirmish formats. 

[TorvaldTheMild]

FW is kinda at the tail end of legion vehicles. We have access to the solid staple sicarans. The gatling one we don't really need, the plasma one (omega) isn't great in 40k and the Arcus 40k rules suck because they don't have the good ammo like they do in HH. You may as well stick with scorpius for 40k, that can hide and indirect fire at range. There is no plausible lore reasons for missing legion 40k vehicle rules, every shoestring warband, there is a well equipped one in the lore. I would have ported over all the legion vehicle rules with 4ok ones for SM and chaos, same with ad mech HH units to 40k. That's how you make make all the money, even if you don't sell a lot of things, selling all the things gets you there. Which is why we asr seeing specialist games make a comeback and smaller contained skirmish formats. 

Rules always change though, the Gatling one could get better and so could the plasma one.  The plasma one is so bad that, its bound to get a rules hike.  

[Fhanados]

I think that if they were going to give us some variants they may as well have given us all of them. After all we have a bunch of other Heresy-era stuff like the Dreadnoughts and Rapiers available. From a business and balance perspective I think it would have been wiser to give Chaos access to the same "relic" vehicles as Space Marines, but they've decided not to.

 

 

... There is no plausible lore reasons for missing legion 40k vehicle rules, every shoestring warband, there is a well equipped one in the lore.,,,

 

I somewhat disagree with this statement. There's several good reasons why Chaos forces don't have all the Legion-era goodies. 

 

Looking at Sicaran tanks and their variants for example. These are sophisticated, high end battle tanks using some of the best technology available to the Imperium at the time. They're a carefully crafted combination of Landraider and Rhino STC systems with advanced Crusade-era weapons. With the resources and logistics available to the Legiones Astartes these could be manufactured and maintained fairly easily.

 

The Chaos Legions are not the same legions of old. They do not have the same logistics, and most don't even operate as a unified Legion anymore. Even the Black Legion, the largest of all the current Chaos Space Marine forces, is a multitude of semi-independent warbands serving under the same banner and each has to secure its own supplies or favour with more prominent Warlords. 

 

I imagine early on following the Heresy these vehicles would have still been commonplace, but over 10,000 years of warfare (Warp shenanigans aside) they're going to get destroyed or damaged to the point of uselessness. 

 

Not every warband has a Warpsmith or Dark Mechanicus adepts to fix things for them, let alone one from the Great Crusade with the knowledge needed to work with such technologies. Very few Loyalist techmarines would know what do do with a Sicaran, why would Chaos be better at it?

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the Chaos Legions are not the Heresy Legions and it's totally justifiable that they don't have ALL the Heresy goodies.