Forge World tweaking Black Library lore

[b1soul]

What are your thoughts on how FW has expanded what was previously covered by BL. Which changes are good, which not so much? FW seems to have the habit of inserting factions into conflicts not apparently involving them or throwing in extra battles.

Examples:

1. SoH at Prospero
2. Custodes at Signus
3. WS at Thramas
4. Battle of Poems IV

I generally enjoy such additions. Any other significant ones? What are your thoughts?

 

EDIT: Battle of Phemus IV (man...that autocorrect is brutal)

Edited December 9, 2019 by b1soul

[Welcheren]

I just went searching like mad for details on the WS at Thramas, but I don't have the actual Forgeworld volume in question.

 

Any details on how the WS perform? That would certainly colour my thoughts on FW's addition.

[m0nolith]

I think they're a great addition. The war was...well very big, so big in fact that even after 54 books + the siege series, there is still more room to reinterpret and to expand on and explore more things that happened in it.

 

Although some things may have been added on artificially such as the Custodes being present on Signus which was clearly there as a justification to redo the Custodes list (which to be fair, was very much needed), it wasn't done in such a forceful way that it clashed with the fabric of the story itself. Dare I say it added something good to the story.

 

My favorite "expansion" that the Black Books give tho is the idea that Horus' troop movements signified he may have been planning on some sort rebel or traitorous activity even before Davin, something that really calls into question the extent that Chaos played into turning him. 

[bluntblade]

The only one I really object to is Chondax, because it actively conflicts with the story in Scars and makes character actions deeply strange.

[Sandlemad]

Typically their stuff is excellent. In particular the FW accounts of Signus and Prospero easily exceed the versions in the BL novels, both for making them feel like genuinely sizeable battles and fitting them into a larger poltical context. All the stuff about the non-SW and non-TS forces in Inferno was excellent, as was the stuff about Horus's machinations, the bickering amongst the sanction host, and the grubby aftermath of field executions following the battle. It's useful to remember that these grand historical situations are always bigger than some significant personalities and their legions clashing, there's always deeper political strands and thousands of people getting swept along with events. Hard to do in a novel.

There is a sort of tendency by FW to zero in on 'their own' dudes in their accounts: Tsolomon Khan at Chondax, Autek Mor at Istvaan, Crohne and that dreadnought at Signus, Endryd Harr or the Nemean. It's never done to the exclusion of the main players or where the camera is focusing in the BL books, so to speak, so it works well. Like they're saying 'meanwhile, on the left flank...'. As m0nolith said, sometimes this is pretty clearly done in aid of other concerns but it's never overwhelming. If these characters tend towards the archtype of 'relic of the older legion, particularly brutal and darkly famed', well, that's fine, that was an interest of Bligh/French/Hoare and it's still cool in practice.

In addition the milhist approach and the in-universe account styling lets the authors introduce some wonderful elements of ambiguity that a novel's narrative can struggle to emulate. Probably because of the authors' interests, these can make for decent horror or at least a strong feeling of the weird. Stuff like how the daemons at Signus are written about in Malevolence or the whole section in Inferno about how time/space/causality fell apart on Prospero. That kind of thing is a great addition, even putting aside particular narrative changes or expansions, and really plays to the form's strengths.

[Ryltar Thamior]

I haven't taken a serious look at the more recent Black Books, but it's generally seemed that FW has been a lot better at injecting a sense of , for wont of a better term, "realism" into their picture of given Heresy campaigns as compared to BL. I've also generally enjoyed the little 'easter eggs' and 'genius bonuses' comprised of Sanskrit, historic Earth bronze age / early iron age, plus occasional pop culture references in the FW materials. 

Don't get me wrong, some BL authors are pretty excellent at putting a lot of thought and nuance into their perspectives; but for whatever reason, possibly because presenting a campaign is quite a different thing to attempting to keep a 'rule of cool' narrative running forward in a book, the FW efforts tended to be more enduring, perhaps more 'monolithic'.

Partially I credit that to Bligh's skills as a content creator [or presenter]; partially, like I say, to the difference between a report / "non-fiction" presentation , often with 'yes we're aware the data is unreliable' elements , versus attempting to write fiction. 

---

I also think that various things FW have come out with and chosen to shine a light on are rather cooler than the *lack* of comparable attention lavished by BL writers upon similar or the same areas. For instance, with FW we got Solar Auxilia. With BL, we get rather sparse Imperial Army mentions, generally as semi-faceless cannon-fodder to give Astartes different flavours of target-practice. This isn't *entirely* fair, of course - after all, much of what we know about, say, the Old Hundred Imperial Army regiments is the result of a few BL novels and short stories where they've featured as part of the background. But I think it matters. 

There's also probably an interesing comparative to be done on the 'loyalists from traitor legions' writeups from both [or, the other way around]. BL did some pretty cool stuff with the Crusader Host members, and some other luminaries including some Knights Errant [and, of course, Omegon et co ... er maybe] ; FW did some pretty cool stuff with Kyr Vhalen - and it's interesting to note that whereas the former presentations were all individuals who were exceptional, the latter was an entirely reasonable battalion sized extrapolation of fog of war on a strategic level, and the perhaps somewhat inevitable results of the Iron Warriors' own doctrine and dispositions. 

Speaking of the XXth and Paramar V , I also have to say that whether one approves of the general 30 Xanatos Roulette hat of the Legion or not - that whole 'the devil is not mocked' thing , in context of how the campaign's *broader strategic saliency was explicated* was just *classy* . There is quite some benefit, it might be said, to hindsight - as a narrative tool as much as anything else.

It'll be interesting to see how FW handles the Siege of Terra in comparison to the BL presentation. 

[Leif Bearclaw]

What was Poems IV? I've read all the FW Black Books but that one doesn't ring a bell.

 

Extra battles are cool. While Books 4 and 6 were somewhat annoying because they were filler, it was admittedly very tasty filler. I'm less sold on the 'never before mentioned small force of X was actually at famous event Y' type stuff. At best it seems unnecessary, and at worst it deflects from the central faction's 'moment in the sun'. The Custodes in Malelvolence were worse for this than the SoH at Prospero imo. The SoH were a sideshow and didn't really intrude into the core narrative (other than occupying a bit of page space), whereas the Custodes were more central, and somewhat intruded on the Crimson Paladins and their role as 'main bastion of sanity while the Legion was going bat'. Granted, I don't really like the Signus narrative (it's all a bit nonsensical imo), but the Custodes did feel a bit like a third wheel to what should have been a IX Legion affair.

[b1soul]

I just went searching like mad for details on the WS at Thramas, but I don't have the actual Forgeworld volume in question.

 

Any details on how the WS perform? That would certainly colour my thoughts on FW's addition.

 

There isn't much detail in Malevolence. It is just mentions that the NL try to court an alliance with the Brotherhood of the Broken Shield under Bujir Khan, and the DA treat the WS with distrust. However, the WS prove vital to the loyalist victory. So it's sufficiently vague to enable the Thramas book to expand upon it in a variety of ways. 

 

I think they're a great addition. The war was...well very big, so big in fact that even after 54 books + the siege series, there is still more room to reinterpret and to expand on and explore more things that happened in it.

 

Although some things may have been added on artificially such as the Custodes being present on Signus which was clearly there as a justification to redo the Custodes list (which to be fair, was very much needed), it wasn't done in such a forceful way that it clashed with the fabric of the story itself. Dare I say it added something good to the story.

 

My favorite "expansion" that the Black Books give tho is the idea that Horus' troop movements signified he may have been planning on some sort rebel or traitorous activity even before Davin, something that really calls into question the extent that Chaos played into turning him. 

 

Custodes at Signus is a little forced in that the SW are mentioned...but the Emperor's own Praetorians are not in Fear to Tread. But it's forgivable and the idea is pretty cool. A Custodes contingent does make more sense than a "Watch Pack". 

 

The only one I really object to is Chondax, because it actively conflicts with the story in Scars and makes character actions deeply strange.

 

I feel it does too, but I haven't re-read Scars in a while. Is it truly irreconcilable? 

 

What was Poems IV? I've read all the FW Black Books but that one doesn't ring a bell.

 

Extra battles are cool. While Books 4 and 6 were somewhat annoying because they were filler, it was admittedly very tasty filler. I'm less sold on the 'never before mentioned small force of X was actually at famous event Y' type stuff. At best it seems unnecessary, and at worst it deflects from the central faction's 'moment in the sun'. The Custodes in Malelvolence were worse for this than the SoH at Prospero imo. The SoH were a sideshow and didn't really intrude into the core narrative (other than occupying a bit of page space), whereas the Custodes were more central, and somewhat intruded on the Crimson Paladins and their role as 'main bastion of sanity while the Legion was going bat'. Granted, I don't really like the Signus narrative (it's all a bit nonsensical imo), but the Custodes did feel a bit like a third wheel to what should have been a IX Legion affair.

 

Phemus IV 

 

That was a bad autocorrect 

[Son of Carnelian]

Just a out every tweak and expansion Forge World has made to the existing lore has been a net positive in my eyes. They introduce ambiguity where the novels cannot. They increase the scale where the novels cannot. They're essentially two different mediums. The Black Library makes novels and when they're good, they tell the intimate, human stories of the Heresy better than Forge World can with their massive "after action reports." But they theoretically should both work in harmony to tell the story of the Heresy.

 

The one time where I felt that FW reduced the complexity and intrigue of the setting was in their depiction of the events of Scars. Chris Wraight's debut novel in the Horus Heresy setting is absolutely fantastic and FW undermining its narrative was a huge strike for me. Having the White Scars find out about the Alpha Legion's infiltration as a result of XX Legion infighting rather than their own deduction is insulting. It remains the only black mark on FW's record for my money and I will continue to ignore it at every turn.

[Indefragable]

As with all things, I think with moderation and reason it's a great addition.

 

The 300 Spartans at Thermopylae get all the credit, but in reality there were up to 5,000* other Greek forces there with them. That doesn't change the heart of the story at all, since the 300 still did the brunt of the epic stuff and 5,300 against 100k-1M* enemies is still heroic as :cuss .

 

Stuff like having some Custodes and AdMech with the IX Legion at Signus, Sons of Horus at Prospero, etc... is fine by me and actually adds a touch of realism to me. Not to get into current events or political or anything, but look at how it's frequently coalitions or alliances doing things these days as opposed to nation's doing absolutely everything themselves. To me, it makes perfect sense that expeditionary fleets by their nature would be patchworks of forces, with a Iron Hands primary contingent, following up to White Scars nomad fleets providing scouting reports and preventing enemies from fleeing, with an Iron Warriors or Death Guard company along for extra heavy lifting supporting, and then a SoH or BA force for select strike missions. At least on paper, when in reality having extra "shooters" along means that the whole force ends up basically performing like Iron Hands the whole time, so in essence, from a strategic and historical perspective, it might as well be an Iron Hands force.

 

Where I don't like it is when suddenly the new model FW is pushing suddenly shows up all the time. Like a SoH upgrade kit coming out and suddenly every single engagement has SoH contingents dressed in the livery found in the upgrade pack, equipped with the Chtonian-pattern-bolters featured in the upgrade pack, showing up everywhere from Terra to Phall to Chondax, etc... I can't think of any egregious offenses like that off the top of my head, but I wouldn't put it past them.

 

TL;DR: with moderation I think it's great.

 

*I'm not a historian, so I don't know the actual numbers (if they are even known to us), but that was a number I saw a few times

[bluntblade]

I think it is an issue, as the Scars are shown busting out instead of going back to fight. Also, the AL in the novel are shown to avoid overt hostilities until the Scars push the issue, and the Khan's (and others' behaviour after that is very much "no one's really fought us yet, we have the freedom to choose the side we.deem right".

[bluntblade]

That said, I hope Tsolman Khan pops on Terra, he seems cool.

[MegaVolt87]

SoH at Prospero? That sounds wild. What happened there? 

[Darkwrath121]

SoH at Prospero? That sounds wild. What happened there?

Representatives of the Warmaster alongside the Wolves/Talons, but they mostly lurked in the back and secretly kidnapped loads of psychically sensitive citizens for then-unknown reasons.

[b1soul]

It seems off to me that the WS would punch through the AL fleet at full speed...and then make a stop at Phemus IV to fight a ground battle against the large AL force there. The AL fleet just clings to the inner system and allows the WS to annihilate the AL at Phemus IV. I suppose the AL fleet and the Phemus IV AL are opposing factions? But it does seem odd that the WS would essentially delay at Phemus IV, though I guess FW could say the battle was a lightning insertion only taking something like six hours total (thanks to WS speed). Should've fleshed that out a bit more I think.

 

EDIT: And of course of WS wouldn't know for sure whether the AL fleet would catch up to them at Phemus IV

[Fajita Fan]

SoH at Prospero? That sounds wild. What happened there? 

Yeah, I thought “Thousand Sons” and “Prospero Burns” were amazing books as written. 

[bluntblade]

It seems off to me that the WS would punch through the AL fleet at full speed...and then make a stop at Phemus IV to fight a ground battle against the large AL force there. The AL fleet just clings to the inner system and allows the WS to annihilate the AL at Phemus IV. I suppose the AL fleet and the Phemus IV AL are opposing factions? But it does seem odd that the WS would essentially delay at Phemus IV, though I guess FW could say the battle was a lightning insertion only taking something like six hours total (thanks to WS speed). Should've fleshed that out a bit more I think.

 

EDIT: And of course of WS wouldn't know for sure whether the AL fleet would catch up to them at Phemus IV

And then the Khan, Ilya, Shiban, Torghun etc all seem to be studiously ignoring it when it goes from "they wanted to delay us" to "they were outright killing our people". In particular it makes their decision to not aid the Wolves really suspect.

 

SoH doing the really ugly work makes the Wolves' deeds a little less grey, but I'm ok with it (though I wish we'd seen some rogue psyker deployments somewhere in the BL or FW books).

Edited December 10, 2019 by bluntblade

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

SoH doing the really ugly work makes the Wolves' deeds a little less grey, but I'm ok with it (though I wish we'd seen some rogue psyker deployments somewhere in the BL or FW books).

 

That isn't really what happened though. IIRC the SoH only landed after the psychic shenanigans started and Russ switched tac from 'target the Legion' to 'everyone dies'. The SoH just abducted a bunch of civilians for undefined nefarious purposes, while staying out of the main fighting (possibly due to Horus's orders, possibly because the Wolves didn't want them there). The Wolves still exterminated Prospero. Not sure how that makes the Wolves less 'grey'.

 

[Marshal Rohr]

I don’t consider it ‘tweaking’ so much as providing a historical context. Someone mentioned Thermopylae earlier, and it’s essentially that. If a Black Library Book is Gates of Fire, a Forge World Book is an Osprey Historical. IE, a fun cursory look at the event in a historical context.

[bluntblade]

 

 

SoH doing the really ugly work makes the Wolves' deeds a little less grey, but I'm ok with it (though I wish we'd seen some rogue psyker deployments somewhere in the BL or FW books).

 

That isn't really what happened though. IIRC the SoH only landed after the psychic shenanigans started and Russ switched tac from 'target the Legion' to 'everyone dies'. The SoH just abducted a bunch of civilians for undefined nefarious purposes, while staying out of the main fighting (possibly due to Horus's orders, possibly because the Wolves didn't want them there). The Wolves still exterminated Prospero. Not sure how that makes the Wolves less 'grey'.

I see your point, but the Wolves were driven to that whereas the SoH always had a nefarious intent.

[b1soul]

I believe Gates of Fire (and even 300) touch upon the presence of the other Greeks before they leave the Spartans to make their last stand.

 

Fear to Tread and A Thousand Sons/Prospero Burns simply do not mention the presence of the Custodes or SoH. So their insertion by FW could be viewed as tweaking.

[bluntblade]

Oh, absolutely. The Thespians feature prominently for one, and there's mention of the Athenian fleet.

[Marshal Rohr]

I believe Gates of Fire (and even 300) touch upon the presence of the other Greeks before they leave the Spartans to make their last stand.

 

Fear to Tread and A Thousand Sons/Prospero Burns simply do not mention the presence of the Custodes or SoH. So their insertion by FW could be viewed as tweaking.

 

Totally irrelevant to the point. 

[Excessus]

I dislike the retcon on Tallarn. It used to be Alpha Legion vs White Scars in one of the biggest tank battles of the heresy (and AL won)...but now it suddenly became IW vs Imperial Army with a little AL sprinkled in for flavour?

[Sandlemad]

 

 

SoH doing the really ugly work makes the Wolves' deeds a little less grey, but I'm ok with it (though I wish we'd seen some rogue psyker deployments somewhere in the BL or FW books).

That isn't really what happened though. IIRC the SoH only landed after the psychic shenanigans started and Russ switched tac from 'target the Legion' to 'everyone dies'. The SoH just abducted a bunch of civilians for undefined nefarious purposes, while staying out of the main fighting (possibly due to Horus's orders, possibly because the Wolves didn't want them there). The Wolves still exterminated Prospero. Not sure how that makes the Wolves less 'grey'.

I see your point, but the Wolves were driven to that whereas the SoH always had a nefarious intent.

 

 

I think Inferno undercuts that though by focusing on the brutality of the wolves' actions. In the post-battle section it has VI legion troops attacking refugee convoys, executing unarmed mortal officers attempting to surrender (alongside the SoH), and deliberately burning down buildings filled with civilians The SoH's gathering of civilians gets attention and a good chunk of the ugly work is put on them/house Malinax but the wolves' actions are portrayed much more starkly and horrifically than they were in the BL novels, to the point where I found it basically overwhelmed any larger 'X did something wrong'/'Y was duped' fan concerns for me.

 

I dislike the retcon on Tallarn. It used to be Alpha Legion vs White Scars in one of the biggest tank battles of the heresy (and AL won)...but now it suddenly became IW vs Imperial Army with a little AL sprinkled in for flavour?

I thought Tallarn was IW vs mortal humans since... 2nd edition? Certainly in IA and WD background in 3rd edition.

Edited December 10, 2019 by Sandlemad