Forge World tweaking Black Library lore

[b1soul]

Rohr...

 

Gates of Fire:Osprey =/= BL novel:Black Book

 

It would be like if Gates of Fire never even mentions the other Greek soldiers at Thermopylae. Hence the "tweaking"

Edited December 10, 2019 by b1soul

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

 

I think Inferno undercuts that though by focusing on the brutality of the wolves' actions. In the post-battle section it has VI legion troops attacking refugee convoys, executing unarmed mortal officers attempting to surrender (alongside the SoH), and deliberately burning down buildings filled with civilians The SoH's gathering of civilians gets attention but the wolves' actions are portrayed much more starkly and horrifically than they were in the BL novels, to the point where it overwhelms any larger 'X did something wrong'/'Y was duped' fan concerns.

 

 

Eh, not really. Inferno makes it extremely clear  It reads like a hardly unusual Legion action to me. Exterminating worlds that had gone beyond the pale was not something unique to the SWs, even among the loyalist Legions. Inferno makes it clear when the nature of the fighting changed, and the Wolves were very much driven to their extreme actions by the deeds of the Sons (page 49).

 

"Such a complete rejection of the Emperor's will, the dark lessons of the Age of Strife and the spirit of the Imperial Truth as evinced by the Thousand Sons could only be seen as contemptible by Leman Russ and the warriors of the VI^th Legion. As they spat upon their blades, the Space Wolves swore the Thousand Sons were no longer the brother Legionaries they had conquered a galaxy beside, but something corrupt and broken. They were no longer owed any debt of honour of duty....This was no longer a limited war on Imperial soil. Propsero had been damned by the actions of its defenders and was owed no mercy, and the Space Wolves would scour it clean so that the evil manifested there would never rise again to trouble humanity. On the direct orders of their Primarch, the warriors of the 7th Great Company, where the majority of the Black Cull and the siege and artillery reserve of the 'Landayvan' - they who 'lay the land waste' had been assigned[were ordered to gear up]....Their orders were to raise Tizca, to leave no stone and spare none:man, woman or child".

 

 

I dislike the retcon on Tallarn. It used to be Alpha Legion vs White Scars in one of the biggest tank battles of the heresy (and AL won)...but now it suddenly became IW vs Imperial Army with a little AL sprinkled in for flavour?

I thought Tallarn was IW vs mortal humans since... 2nd edition? Certainly in IA and WD background in 3rd edition.

 

There one mention of AL fighting WS at Tallarn in the AL IA article, but it's in an example of a smaller engagement, implied to be company sized at best. Whereas the WS IA makes no mention of fighting at Tallarn, which one would expect if they'd been a major contributor to the largest tank battle in Imperial history and one of the 'headliner fights' of the entire Heresy. It doesn't suggest the 'Battle of Tallarn' was either a Traitor Victory, or massive volumes of AL and WS armour going at it. Even if it is a retcon, it's a pretty old one, certainly predating FW's involvement in the Heresy, as the 5th edition IG dex (which came out in 2009) specifically name drops the IWs as being responsible for Tallarn, and has normal human forces doing most of the work on the Imperial side, with them eventually earning a bloody victory..

[Sandlemad]

 

Eh, not really. Inferno makes it extremely clear  It reads like a hardly unusual Legion action to me. Exterminating worlds that had gone beyond the pale was not something unique to the SWs, even among the loyalist Legions. Inferno makes it clear when the nature of the fighting changed, and the Wolves were very much driven to their extreme actions by the deeds of the Sons (page 49).

I get that and like the emphasis on turning points, etc, but it still feels like one thing for the BL books to talk about 'doing what needed to be done' and 'no hesitation' as one of the VIth legion's characteristics, and then for Inferno to actually go into detail, both at and before Prospero : here's where they klilled these civilians, here's where they massacred these mutineers, here's where they broke out the phoxphex, here's where they were used for punitive actions with a death toll in the millions, here's where they exterminated the people of Prospero as a branch of humanity. That this wasn't all that unusual a legion action for them or others is good to remember but by that same token I think the shock of how Inferno presents it has its own value.

 

Actually that's something else I'd mark up as a virtue of the black books: in general they're good and unsparing about portraying the great crusade (whatever overarching grand plan of the Emperor's we want to bring up) as an incredibly violent act of galactic imperialism against an often unwilling humanity. Even if the imperium of the great crusade wasn't quite the dystopia of 40k, it was still an empire built on conquest, with all the innocent shed blood that comes with.

 

After that one scene of the dude getting beaten nearly to death by off-duty soldiers in Horus Rising, the BL books sort of took their eye off this, at least as a consistent feature or a feature that wasn't clumsily brought up (e.g. in Promethean Sun). Bligh and French and the other FW writers had/have a knack of coolly presenting a litany of exterminations and genocides that remind you of what the bread and butter of galactic conquest inevitably is.

Edited December 10, 2019 by Sandlemad

[bluntblade]

You know, this is the point where I wish that we had actually got more of Prospero from the Wolves' POV (much as I love PB). I feel it would give weight to Bjorn's rumination on how "they had slumped to the ground on that blasted world and seen what they had done to it."

[Excessus]

AL on Tallarn was in the 2nd ed Chaos Codex as far as I can remember.

[Leif Bearclaw]

AL on Tallarn was in the 2nd ed Chaos Codex as far as I can remember.

2nd ed Chaos book is very similar to the IA, but without the mention of the Scars. All it seems to say is 'the brethren of the hydra inflicted stinging defeats on [loyalist Marines] at Tallarn, Yarant and dozens of smaller outposts'.

 

Whereas the 2nd ed Guard book (like the 5th) specifically states that the Iron Warriors were the Traitors that bombed Tallarn, and then fought the surviving natives with both sides later reinforcing.

 

So yeah, definitely looks like Tallarn was always primarily IW vs Guard/Army, with the AL (amongst others) being involved in a more minor fashion.

[Excessus]

Hmm, must have remembered wrong then.

[Son of Sacrifice]

Forge World make the galaxy seem a lot bigger. I just like 30k/40k a whole lot more as military fiction / military history.

[Ryltar Thamior]

 

AL on Tallarn was in the 2nd ed Chaos Codex as far as I can remember.

2nd ed Chaos book is very similar to the IA, but without the mention of the Scars. All it seems to say is 'the brethren of the hydra inflicted stinging defeats on [loyalist Marines] at Tallarn, Yarant and dozens of smaller outposts'.

 

Whereas the 2nd ed Guard book (like the 5th) specifically states that the Iron Warriors were the Traitors that bombed Tallarn, and then fought the surviving natives with both sides later reinforcing.

 

So yeah, definitely looks like Tallarn was always primarily IW vs Guard/Army, with the AL (amongst others) being involved in a more minor fashion.

 

Clearly, the way to reconcile this is by noting that the Alpha Legion credit at Tallarn ... for a "stinging defeat", no less ... is that well-known capacity for  Truthiness inherent in any and all records pertaining to the XXth. [Or, if we're going to be a bit more reasonable about it, suspecting that any such XXth successes at Tallarn were smaller-scale ones of a shorter immediate duration that got eclipsed by the far more massive scope of the ensuing fighting]

 

Oddly enough, the main mention of XXth legion forces at Tallarn that I'm aware of is in Tallarn: Ironclad, wherein it's suggested that their operatives were attempting to use non/less- violent means to sway Tallarn to the Traitor side ... and then got rudely interrupted in the process by the IVth turning up and being rather *unsubtle*. 

 

It would certainly fit with the Alpha Legion's occasional 'prideful' streak to have somebody, millennia later, go through and edit records to make out that the Legion did, in fact, win against the Loyalists at Tallarn ... and overwrite the Iron Warriors' a) disruption of their plans, b) general win-by-obliteration. At the least, it re-injects an XXth presence there - which, we know from more recent Black Library novelizations, they most definitely had [apparently being quite integral to the Iron Warriors' successful seizure of the underground network they wound up using as their main terrestrial base for the conflict] 

 

There's no getting around the fact that the 2E fluff is ... a bit all over the place, even by comparison with itself, let alone subsequent developments over the next ... *checks watch* twenty, twenty five years or so [...I am now feeling old] ; but whether we are speaking about the Black Library or the Black Books, I for one am pretty amused and enthused about *both* GW outlets going through with an occasionally quite fine-toothed comb to find little irregularities like these, and working to 're-integrate' them into the overarching 'historical' narrative . [The BL materials also appear to have re-confirmed White Scar presence at Tallarn, albeit in the less significant numbers we'd probably expect due to Tallarn's nature earlier on. Said BL books have also placed Imperial Fists, and Ultramarines apparently, at the conflict - which I mention because it's a bit of a counterpoint [or, rather, 'resonancy'] to the earlier mention of Inferno situating Sons of Horus at Prospero, or a later Black Book introducing Custodes at Signus] 

 

I haven't kept full pace with the FW Black Books, but I don't seem to recall a huge amount of attention being paid to Tallarn in them thus far. Who knows what we might see in terms of 'tweaking' / 'expansionism' / 'detailing' if/when *that* happens. 

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

For anyone interested, this seems to be FW's current overview of who's involved large-scale at Tallarn, taken from the Titanicus ruelbook (and paraphrased by 40k wiki):

 

Perturabo, Primarch of the Iron Warriors, launched an all-out planetary invasion of the verdant Imperial staging world of Tallarn, his Legion bolstered by dozens of allied Traitor Imperialis Auxilia regiments, the Traitor Titans of the Legio Krytos and the Knights of House Caesarean. Both the Loyalists and Traitor high commands were taken by surprise by Perturabo's actions and the invasion quickly escalated after he ordered Exterminatus upon the world, scouring its surface of living matter by way of a voracious Life-eater viral barrage. While the population of the world was all but wiped out, many defenders survived thanks to extensive subterranean shelters. The ensuing campaign was fought between vast formations of Imperial Army and Solar Auxilia tanks, the Titans of the Legio Gryphonicus, the Knights of House Megron, the indentured Automata of the household army of the Rogue Trader Sangrea as well as armoured forces of the Iron Hands, Imperial Fists, White Scars and Ultramarines Legions. No infantry can survive in the poisoned wastes, and the war quickly draws in other forces from across the region, including the Titans of the Legio Astorum. The Battle of Tallarn is considered the largest armoured engagement in the known history of Mankind, and while counted as a victory for the Loyalists, millions of warriors and war machines on both sides are left scattered across the lifeless, deadly surface of the planet.

 

 

That said, if we get a Black Book dedicated to Tallarn (which I really hope, if only as an opportunity to visit dedicated tank combat in the Age of Darkness system), they'll probably sprinkle in mentions of other forces as they have in previous books - also I selfishly want to see some of the Iron Hands expertise at armoured warfare that we've been told about but not really shown.

Edited December 13, 2019 by Iron Hands Fanatic

[b1soul]

I recall one of the Black Books mentions a minor engagement with WS vs. AL at Tallarn, but the bulk of the Tallarn conflict has always been between IW and Imperial Army tanks

[Inquisitor Verhek]

It's things like this, the whole discussion on Tallarn, that make me appreciate the Black books. How well they are fleshing out the history of the Horus Heresy. We have to remember that the Heresy started out as nothing more than a blurb of flavor text in the origianal Titanicus game. Yes, the may be retconning a few things here and there. Adding forces where there was no mention before, Sons of Horus as Prospero for example. But they arent' doing any major rewrites. Heck, it's all practically new as far as details go. All we've ever really known is the basic outline and a few bits of detail here and there.

 

I liken it to the new primaris. I know I'm going to get a lot flak for this, but....

 

A lot of us have been in the hobby for a very long time. Nearly 3 decades for myself. Decades. In that time I've watched things get fleshed out and changed. Added and removed. Red bolt guns to black. The background has always been evolving. Even when it's been stuck in the 41st milinium for so long, It's always been getting fleshed out with minor details here and there. Look at how much Roboute has changed since Rogue trader. Could you imagine what the outcry would be like if the internet was around when they removed half marine, half eldar librarians?

 

The primaris marines are one of the new things that's getting added in. Evolving the world. It has yet to have the many many years of building to them that what we are used to has had. They are new and unknown. Unkown in how they they are going to fit into things in the long run. What it means for what we've beeen working with for so long. They're basically starting out with a bit more than a box of flavor text that the Horus Heresy got, but it is still far from the evolution of what we've got now. 

 

What makes the Black books so great, in my opinion, is that there is so much..... character. So much character being injected into the legions, and even the other forces of the Imperium of man, that it's taking what we already know and love and making it better. More flavor, more detail, more history, more humanity even.  I think that is one of the main reason so many veterans of the hobby are fans of the Horus Heresy. It's taking what we know and making it better. 

 

Well, that's my kind of partially on topic rant and opinion at least. I hope I was able to convey what I meant well enough.

 

I'm holding out hope that they find someone as passionate for the setting as Alan was. You could really tell the difference and care that went into his books. 

[b1soul]

I typically prefer FW's take to BL's with regard to force disposition

 

The more the merrier

[Kelborn]

I believe Gates of Fire (and even 300) touch upon the presence of the other Greeks before they leave the Spartans to make their last stand.

 

Fear to Tread and A Thousand Sons/Prospero Burns simply do not mention the presence of the Custodes or SoH. So their insertion by FW could be viewed as tweaking.

That is not quite correct. There were Custodes mentioned in A Thousand Sons, Valdor himself killed off the one falling to the flesh-change, forgott his name.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Indeedy. Custodes were present on prospero. It's how our boy Bjorn lost his arm when valador lopped it of after being hit with a flesh change bolt.

 

Same as sisters of silence for their nullification effects. Made massive sense really.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

I believe Gates of Fire (and even 300) touch upon the presence of the other Greeks before they leave the Spartans to make their last stand.

 

Fear to Tread and A Thousand Sons/Prospero Burns simply do not mention the presence of the Custodes or SoH. So their insertion by FW could be viewed as tweaking.

That is not quite correct. There were Custodes mentioned in A Thousand Sons, Valdor himself killed off the one falling to the flesh-change, forgott his name.

 

I think he meant no Custodes were mentioned in Fear to Tread.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

That's true.

[bluntblade]

I feel Malevolence's changes were a bit rogue compared to elsewhere in the series, but my issues with that book have been iterated several times.

[Fajita Fan]

FW books are meant to tell a story to sell FW models. BL books are meant to tell a story to sell BL books.

[battle captain corpus]

Theres a lot artistic license that muddys the water between the two as well I feel. But the more info and fleshing out we get the better. Plus, like old war stories, sometimes the facts and particulars become different from differing view points.

 

BCC

[b1soul]

@ Kelborn, The_son_of_Dorn

 

Custodes were absent from Fear to Tread

 

SoH were absent from A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns

[Marshal Rohr]

They weren't in the books but that doesn't mean they weren't there. There weren't any Canadians in saving private ryan. 

[StrangerOrders]

They weren't in the books but that doesn't mean they weren't there. There weren't any Canadians in saving private ryan. 

This kinda falls into the age-old 'how unreliable are BL books' quandary. Frankly, I am more comfortable with retcons than 'it isn't true because unreliable narrator' which frankly just serves to invalidate lore discussions and create really irritating gaps. It also leads to the funny question of how in the heck the writer has PoVs of people that died, or even Daemonic ones.

 

Its sort of how in the early books the Legions were incredibly tiny, we do not really need to re-litigate it and its a very clear change. 

 

My main question on the Custodian thing is why the heck was it only for Sanguinius? And also the several dozen wolves. That is actually a far more feasible contingent for the whole 'Watchpack' idea than just sending a 10-man squad, even if just to be canaries 10 corpses are far easier to hide than about a 100 and also stand a better chance of getting word of betrayal out. Its actually a change I would like to see applied more widely since that detail always irked me.

 

On the whole, I tend to thing the Black Books do not retcon so much as fix. Alot of BL authors seem to consider cooperation a polite suggestion rather than policy, which has great benefits for giving us a range of novels, but the fairly coherent development of the Black Books (particularly under Bligh) allows them to pull all the disparate parts of the setting into a single grand narrative. 

 

Its also single-handedly done the best job of making the Galaxy 'feel' big. Little touches like stresses the iffy-ness of Astropaths and the logistical difficulties alone do alot to make some of the weirder parts of the story make sense (like Lorgar's conversion habit only reaching the Emp very later on as mere rumours due to the sheer rarity of reports, which retroactively makes some of the bizarre elements of TFH far more reasonable).

[b1soul]

@ Rohr

 

Hence why I would call it tweaking and not retconning. There's obviously room to stick SoH and Custodes in there without contradicting prior lore.

 

But it feels odd (not setting-breaking) that SoH and Custodes are not at all mentioned in ATS/PB and Fear to Tread respectively, novels that are not entirely contrained to a very narrow perspective of these events.

 

We all know that's because the FW writers subsequently inserted stuff not previously contemplated by the BL authours. Had it been contemplated, it probably would have been at least touched upon in the novels.

[bluntblade]

That's also my point with Chondax. Whereas I think other changes are more welcome as they don't threaten to upend things (not that the SoH on Prospero does for me). Edited December 21, 2019 by bluntblade