Raven Guard Chapter Tactic Inquiry

[Aothaine]

 

 

Does this stack with scout camo cloaks? If it does why would Raven Guard ever field a tactical squad? 

[Dracos]

First question - yes

 

Second question - I'm not right guy to ask anymore. I'm so focused on Primaris I could only say for the ability for MSU cheap units to spread out the heavy weapon love. Me, I'd spend 2 pts each easy for my Incursors to have camo cloaks.

[Morticon]

 

 

Does this stack with scout camo cloaks? If it does why would Raven Guard ever field a tactical squad? 

 

 

Depends on the role. 

 

You're only "receiveing the benefit of cover" if you're either *actually* in cover, or more than 12" away. So, if you're asking about Sniper Scouts- then defs -great addition - and better than Tacs.  If you're asking about bolter scouts- also decent for midfield claiming and objective harassment. 

 

Where they will have downsides is in the fact that, even with just bolters, they are 1 point more expensive than tac-marines and they have a 4+ in combat if they get there.  

 

So, over-all - great little addition for backline scouts with rifles.   

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

It's also worth remembering that there is a fair amount of "Ignore Cover" in the game, and while this does not turn off our -1 to Hit portion of the CT, it does turn off the Cover component, which in turn disables camo cloaks.

 

I personally find camo cloaks on scouts to be overcosted for what they do, and rarely invest the points in them anymore. I would much prefer to spend those points on more bodies.

 

I say this as someone with 40+ painted scouts, over half of which are Camo Cloaked models.

[thewarriorhunter]

I thought I heard that it didn't stack with camo cloaks. So cloaked scouts in cover outside of 12" are rocking a 2+ save?

[duz_]

Sounds like a good one for the GW FAQ team

 

40kfaq@gwplc.com

 

:tu:

[Jacques Corbin]

Well, Scouts vs Tacticals is complicated.

 

Sgt w/ Storm Bolter and Chainsword with either a Missile Launcher or Heavy Bolter, much better with Scouts. If you want 5 guys in power armor with a Heavy Weapon, then it should be tacticals. MSU to spread out your Lascannons is good. Flamers are better done by other units, and mulitmelta Devastators are better for SftS melta. I would consider a Grav Cannon or Plasma Cannon, but I cannot help but feel the Lascannon, Missile Launcher, and Heavy Bolter are better point for point.

[duz_]

Well, Scouts vs Tacticals is complicated.

 

Sgt w/ Storm Bolter and Chainsword with either a Missile Launcher or Heavy Bolter, much better with Scouts. If you want 5 guys in power armor with a Heavy Weapon, then it should be tacticals. MSU to spread out your Lascannons is good. Flamers are better done by other units, and mulitmelta Devastators are better for SftS melta. I would consider a Grav Cannon or Plasma Cannon, but I cannot help but feel the Lascannon, Missile Launcher, and Heavy Bolter are better point for point.

:huh:

 

Is this the right thread?

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

I thought I heard that it didn't stack with camo cloaks. So cloaked scouts in cover outside of 12" are rocking a 2+ save?

 

There is no stacking, it's fairly clear. Normally you need to be in cover/obscured (per the 40k Rule Book) to gain the benefit of cover.

 

Camo cloaks increase that benefit of cover from a +1 to save to a +2 to save.

 

Our CT triggers us being in cover for simply being beyond 12" range.

 

Ergo: A model with a camo cloak can be out in plain sight, and be beyond 12" range, and get +2 to their save. Feel free to drop your eliminators in the wide open, they are rocking at 1+ save until assailants can close to under 12" range.

 

 

 

Well, Scouts vs Tacticals is complicated.

 

Sgt w/ Storm Bolter and Chainsword with either a Missile Launcher or Heavy Bolter, much better with Scouts. If you want 5 guys in power armor with a Heavy Weapon, then it should be tacticals. MSU to spread out your Lascannons is good. Flamers are better done by other units, and mulitmelta Devastators are better for SftS melta. I would consider a Grav Cannon or Plasma Cannon, but I cannot help but feel the Lascannon, Missile Launcher, and Heavy Bolter are better point for point.

 

Is this the right thread?

 

 

[Jacques Corbin]

Sorry, he did ask, albeit rhetorically in the first post, about why even take a Tactical squad.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

For true Raven Guard, the choice between Tactical and Scout (and camo or not) is quite binary, and has nothing to do with armor saves, imo.

 

It's about the Concealed Positions deployment or not, and raw points for troop tax when fulfilling a battalion. Heavy/Special weapon deployment in troops is just so minuscule in terms of troop footprint it's hardly worth considering.

 

At the end of the day, for most folks, it comes down to naked Scouts (55) or Intercessors (85). Scouts are the value choice, Intercessors are the quality choice. The margin between the two is so small it hardly feels worth it exploring the nuance between the two.

 

I will say this for Tacticals though: they are unique in terms of utilization of the Drop Pod. While not S Tier competitive, it's an interesting/fun though (2x5-Man Tacticals, Combi on Sarge, Special in squad). Packs a decent enough punch for a "tax".

[Claws and Effect]

For true Raven Guard, the choice between Tactical and Scout (and camo or not) is quite binary, and has nothing to do with armor saves, imo.

 

It's about the Concealed Positions deployment or not, and raw points for troop tax when fulfilling a battalion. Heavy/Special weapon deployment in troops is just so minuscule in terms of troop footprint it's hardly worth considering.

 

At the end of the day, for most folks, it comes down to naked Scouts (55) or Intercessors (85). Scouts are the value choice, Intercessors are the quality choice. The margin between the two is so small it hardly feels worth it exploring the nuance between the two.

 

I will say this for Tacticals though: they are unique in terms of utilization of the Drop Pod. While not S Tier competitive, it's an interesting/fun though (2x5-Man Tacticals, Combi on Sarge, Special in squad). Packs a decent enough punch for a "tax".

On the contrary. If I know that I'll be playing against Imperial Fists or Iron Warriors I'm taking the Tactical squad over the Scout Squad.

 

They both ignore cover with everything in the army. The camo cloaks become pointless and you get a better save out of the Tactical guys for less points (Tac squad with no options is 60, Scout squad with cloaks is 70).

 

Then the only question that remains is do you really need Concealed Positions.

Edited December 10, 2019 by Claws and Effect

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

 

Snip

On the contrary. If I know that I'll be playing against Imperial Fists or Iron Warriors I'm taking the Tactical squad over the Scout Squad.

 

They both ignore cover with everything in the army. The camo cloaks become pointless and you get a better save out of the Tactical guys for less points (Tac squad with no options is 60, Scout squad with cloaks is 70).

 

Then the only question that remains is do you really need Concealed Positions.

 

 

We're in agreement here. If you're playing against IW/IF, the question isn't Scouts with Camo Cloaks versus Tacticals. Its Scouts (no cloaks) versus Intercessors.

 

Simply put what i'm saying is Camo Cloaks are overpriced for what they do, and there are many tools int he game that bypass their benefit. If I want a cheap option, I'm taking scouts without cloaks. If I want a quality option i'm taking Intercessors.

[Claws and Effect]

The Tactical squad is cheap enough now that the trade off between Concealed Positions and a better save is actually worthwhile.

 

If I need a cheap unit to camp on an objective in my own deployment zone I go with Tacticals now. I also often play against melee heavy armies. The 3+ save vs 4+ save in melee is worth it for me.